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Post by bobc on Jun 21, 2011 12:35:30 GMT -5
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Post by goldenfist on Jun 21, 2011 14:30:28 GMT -5
He's talking about Ultimate Spider-Man.
Bendis has a good relationship with Marvel, He's gonna be there
unless he decides to leave or do something really dumb(and I don't mean writing about a certain character).
This is why I don't post anything with Bendis in it because everyone get's so mad about what he does which is the reason why I don't post alot of topics on this board.
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Post by bobc on Jun 21, 2011 15:10:03 GMT -5
Well that's your prerogative--I find all these deaths really cheap and boring. Also, bringing somebody different back as Spiderman is lame, Ultimate Universe or not. The Black Panther isn't the Panther anymore, Captain America isn't Captain America anymore, Hawkeye wasn't Hawkeye for years and on and on. It is really hard to care about these characters at this point.
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 21, 2011 15:11:51 GMT -5
HBSon let me borrow his Ultimate Spiderman TPB #1. I just wanted to refresh my memory.
Geeze-- it is really, REALLY good. It honestly is. Mark Bagley's visual storytelling is great and Bendis' writing (and script!) is nuanced, interesting, engaging, thoughtful---- he uses his little stylistic tricks & self-indulgences MUCH more judiciously, so that they enhance the book, and don't become their own little show.
Man-- the measure of an artist is, of course, the caliber of their best work. But that work is also a curse, as everything after is measured by that standard. I would be so depressed. . .
HB
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Post by bobc on Jun 21, 2011 16:37:39 GMT -5
Yeah--I have heard that his Daredevil and Spiderman were good, I never read them, but how long ago was that? To be fair, it would seem that if any character is suited to Bendis' style, it would be Spiderman. But honestly, I walked into Austin Books a month ago and saw all these melodramatic covers regarding the death of the Human Torch, I pretty much just gave up and walked out--haven't been back since. And now Peter Parker is being killed off.
Oh well, to each his own. I won't be buying it.
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Post by freedomfighter on Jun 21, 2011 18:03:50 GMT -5
He's talking about Ultimate Spider-Man. Bendis has a good relationship with Marvel, He's gonna be there unless he decides to leave or do something really dumb(and I don't mean writing about a certain character). This is why I don't post anything with Bendis in it because everyone get's so mad about what he does which is the reason why I don't post alot of topics on this board. I don't get to buy many Marvel comics because Bendis is writing a lot of them, so it's kind of a trade off...  As for USM dying- a) he won't stay dead. Bucky didn't stay dead, (yeah I know about Fear Itself, big deal. Doubt it'll stick) nobody stays dead. b) even if it somehow did stick, it's like killing the Batman of Earth 2. Peter Parker is still alive, the Spider Man that the marvel universe was built on, still stands, so how big a deal is it? If Marvel needs another Peter Parker, they'll just start another universe. The megaverse is up next... |
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Post by bobc on Jun 21, 2011 19:36:47 GMT -5
Right. And since we know they always come back, who cares? Killing off a beloved character is not a substitute for great, solid storytelling. It is now a boring cliche and yet another reason for me to believe that maybe at one time Bendis had some good ideas and maybe wrote some good stories, but I am talking about today. I occasionally go on other comic forums, and when people express their disapproval about his handling of the Avengers, Bendis fans invariably dredge up his work from 10 years ago (or more) on other titles. For me, that's like saying the band Van Halen is GREAT, while citing songs from the 80's or early 90's. The truth is, Van Halen has been like a walking corpse for 15 years--and great songs from their earlier years don't mean that the band is great today.
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Post by goldenfist on Jun 21, 2011 23:31:14 GMT -5
I'm just saying that everytime I post something about what Bendis is doing it's always negative feedback I get.
Just don't buy the books he writes, Marvel ain't gonna get rid of
him just because alot of fans don't like him.
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Post by bobc on Jun 22, 2011 8:04:46 GMT -5
Golden--I don't buy his work. I haven't in years, with the exception of occasionally buying something he's written without realizing it. Anyway--this thread was started before I knew it was even Bendis doing the killing-- I read the headline on a news site that PP was being killed off and I groaned just because it's been like the 100th "death" in recent years. Then when I read it was Bendis it really annoyed me.
I've said what I had to say.
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Post by freedomfighter on Jun 22, 2011 9:58:17 GMT -5
I'm just saying that everytime I post something about what Bendis is doing it's always negative feedback I get. Just don't buy the books he writes, Marvel ain't gonna get rid of him just because alot of fans don't like him. Well, people aren't buying his books like they used to. That doesn't seem to matter. His New Avengers and Avengers are two high profile titles, both recently relaunched and the April sales of both are barely in the low to mid 60,000 range. www.icv2.com/articles/news/20090.htmlAnd it's just annoying because at first it was all about what a great writer he was and while he may have done well on a title or two, it's not a consistent level that he can keep up, it appears. Then it was all about "look how he sells..." and now that's not really a factor as of this moment either. Marvel properties have never, ever had a higher profile than right now- three major films Thor, Cap and X-Men all come out within weeks of each other, Spider-Man has been in the news for good or ill, for a solid year thanks to the trainwreck play, and a great Avengers cartoon has been on for the last eight months. So what's the excuse for the droop in sales? These are anemic at best. Economy? Perhaps, but the best books (Twilight, Potter, Hunger Games, True Blood) are still sell extremely well. If people loved the comic books, they'd scrape together a few bucks. So maybe it's time for different talent on the books and to not have BMB overseeing so much of the Marvel Universe. Being frustrated because one guy has put so much of an imprint on Marvel is an expression of love for these titles and these characters so don't take it personally. |
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Post by bobc on Jun 22, 2011 19:43:39 GMT -5
Hi FF--I am also curious as to why, although Marvel characters are in a sense more popular than ever thanks to live action movies, comic and animated versions of the same characters are bombing out these days. I know part of it is the fact that there is so much competition out there, along with the sinking economy. On the other hand, Sponge Bob and Phineas and Ferb seem to be dominating the kids animation market. Is it possible that the live action movies are drawing a huge audience because older people like myself are seeing these characters for the first time live, and bringing kids with them? I think that is a huge part of the popularity of the live films, but it doesn't explain the lack of interest in comic books or the EMH series. I'd love to blame this on Bendis, but it is not true. What is going on here? Are super heroes an antiquated concept? Are kids, brought up on gansta rap, seeing super heroes as corny?
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Post by freedomfighter on Jun 23, 2011 0:13:10 GMT -5
Hi FF--I am also curious as to why, although Marvel characters are in a sense more popular than ever thanks to live action movies, comic and animated versions of the same characters are bombing out these days. I know part of it is the fact that there is so much competition out there, along with the sinking economy. On the other hand, Sponge Bob and Phineas and Ferb seem to be dominating the kids animation market. Is it possible that the live action movies are drawing a huge audience because older people like myself are seeing these characters for the first time live, and bringing kids with them? I think that is a huge part of the popularity of the live films, but it doesn't explain the lack of interest in comic books or the EMH series. I'd love to blame this on Bendis, but it is not true. What is going on here? Are super heroes an antiquated concept? Are kids, brought up on gansta rap, seeing super heroes as corny? Is EMH unpopular? It seems to be getting plenty of airtime and re-airings on DIS/XD. They have a huge backlog of standard fare like Suite Life of Zach and Cody so they could air that instead of their blocks of EMH. In any case, I think the move to decompressed storytelling, the destruction of the collector's market (i.e. everything is reissued immediately), the event fatigue, and that ridiculous price jump all helped kill the market. When prices went up to 3.99 I dropped down to buying two books- I refused to take part in that gouging and since I missed so many issues I haven't gone back to other eight or nine titles I dropped. I also just won't buy crossovers- they're terrible and the Events are awful and nothing worthwhile comes out of these events. Marvel really just led the charge with all these non-event events because they were selling well and I think even the readers who liked them are now burnt out. So if they lost me, a collector and reader for thirty five plus years and they lost a lot of the newer fans who stopped buying these events books, I'm not surprised at all that sales are dropping into the toilet... |
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 23, 2011 5:56:32 GMT -5
Hi FF--I am also curious as to why, although Marvel characters are in a sense more popular than ever thanks to live action movies, comic and animated versions of the same characters are bombing out these days. I know part of it is the fact that there is so much competition out there, along with the sinking economy. On the other hand, Sponge Bob and Phineas and Ferb seem to be dominating the kids animation market. Is it possible that the live action movies are drawing a huge audience because older people like myself are seeing these characters for the first time live, and bringing kids with them? I think that is a huge part of the popularity of the live films, but it doesn't explain the lack of interest in comic books or the EMH series. I'd love to blame this on Bendis, but it is not true. What is going on here? Are super heroes an antiquated concept? Are kids, brought up on gansta rap, seeing super heroes as corny? Is EMH unpopular? It seems to be getting plenty of airtime and re-airings on DIS/XD. They have a huge backlog of standard fare like Suite Life of Zach and Cody so they could air that instead of their blocks of EMH. In any case, I think the move to decompressed storytelling, the destruction of the collector's market (i.e. everything is reissued immediately), the event fatigue, and that ridiculous price jump all helped kill the market. When prices went up to 3.99 I dropped down to buying two books- I refused to take part in that gouging and since I missed so many issues I haven't gone back to other eight or nine titles I dropped. I also just won't buy crossovers- they're terrible and the Events are awful and nothing worthwhile comes out of these events. Marvel really just led the charge with all these non-event events because they were selling well and I think even the readers who liked them are now burnt out. So if they lost me, a collector and reader for thirty five plus years and they lost a lot of the newer fans who stopped buying these events books, I'm not surprised at all that sales are dropping into the toilet... Wow, FF-- you echoed my thoughts so specifically that I had to stop and wonder if, somehow, I was you--! Perhaps I've been leading a double-life, all unbeknownst-like---- With the disclaimer that I have NO expertise or formal understanding or training in business/corporate affairs, I would still submit that the comics arm of Marvel Entertainment has been run with almost criminal short-sightedness-- trying to suck in as many "right now" dollars as possible, and COMPLETELY jettisoning all hope of building a sustaining, future market. Not only does the current climate clearly manage to drive away a fair number of dedicated readers (the numbers bear this out, yes?), I don't think it could possibly be more passively hostile to bringing in new readers to boost those depleting ranks. 1) $4.00/issue is a huge misstep-- just ridiculous. I've heard w/ my own ears LCS employees trying to defend it-- "See, it's only, like 25 cents a page---" But the economics are absurd-- $20 for 5 comics? And all five can be read thoroughly in 35 to 40 minutes? This completely ignores the long-understood standing of comics as a bit of a guilty- but affordable- pleasure. For an adult collector, it literally becomes "rent, or comics?"; for a parent collector, "groceries/music lessons/sports fee/tuition/clothes/etc or comics for me?"; for a kid, ha!, maybe they can afford one a week? If they don't do any other significant spending?? No, clearly the business plan is to try to suck as many dollars out of those who will indeed continue to pay for as long as possible-- and then? There's no plan, because-- 2) The creator-indulgent current format (as FF points out) has absolutely no regard for new readers, and makes no pretense of caring about accommodating them at all. (Other than a title-page synopsis that is often incomprehensible or irrelevant to the current storyline-- or is so self-referential that it defeats its supposed purpose). Decompressed stories, for new readers, manage to be both dull (because very little plot ever progresses), and still impossible to follow (because the narrative lens is so ridiculously close). Why on earth would somebody pay 4 bucks to be bored and confused for 7 minutes? The EVENTS,of course, take the same tactic to a much grander scale-- but again, new reader? Hello? Is a 14 year old w/ a bit of interest going to come into a shop and drop $40 on an impulse so they can understand a mega-crossover? Of course not-- cripes, this 50 year old won't do that-! 3) There seems to be a conscious, purposed disconnect between the company and the fan-base on the comics end. No more letters pages; no more bullpen updates; no more editorial soapboxes-- just multi-page promotional previews and the like. I'm sure there are online forums I'm missing, of course-- but the product itself reflects no direct, personal contact w/ the reader whatsoever (remember asterisked issue-references?), which was Marvel's hallmark. Now, instead of being involved IN the Marvel Universe, the readers are relegated to watching the MU happen. Merely spectators, not participants. This will not create a sustaining readership. Oh man-- look how long I go on for-- okay, I'll cut off the thesis-expansion here, and go make breakfast. . . HB |
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Post by bobc on Jun 23, 2011 8:40:34 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing your views, guys.
FF--yeah, EMH was only drawing about 700,000 viewers per episode. That's terrible.
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Post by bobc on Jun 23, 2011 10:02:04 GMT -5
You know FF, after re-reading your post, something dawned on me. While I am crystal clear as to how Marvel has driven off older readers like us, and agree with all your points (grrrrrr "decompressed story-telling"), I am more curious as to why kids aren't getting into comics and haven't been since the mid 90's. I think your post pretty much answered that question in an indirect way. I make a good living and frankly didn't even notice the price increase, but if I were a kid with very little money, that price increase would be a huge problem. And if you add to that the fact that Marvel has made it so you have to purchase 500 books just to understand what the hell is going on, then what kid in his right mind would choose to spend his limited resources on comics? Put another way, a kid can elect to either buy two comics, or spend that same money on a big budget feature film like Thor or Iron Man.
De-compressed story telling. Uhg. Another genius Bendis idea. That used to mean BORING. Why would I spend my money on ten comics that could have told that same story in one? It never dawned on me until now that maybe that's the point--why not force the fans to buy ten instead of one?
And this "realistic dialogue." Bendis moonies seem to think this "realistic" dialogue is some ingenious new technique, but it is actually amateurish and ridiculous. The first thing they teach you in Creative Writing is that you leave out the glitches and stammers and repeated phrases unless they actually add something to the dialogue. This is Creative Writing 101. If you look at a transcript of, say, a newscast interview, the person who does the transcribing usually "cleans up" the dialogue, leaving out the glitches and stammers and stutters. This is done so the reader doesn't get confused or annoyed--since what is easy to follow verbally is not necessarily easy to follow when read.
This is sad.
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Post by freedomfighter on Jun 23, 2011 10:24:26 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing your views, guys. FF--yeah, EMH was only drawing about 700,000 viewers per episode. That's terrible. That's terrible? Compared to a blockbuster like Clone Wars, maybe, but heck 700,000 outdraws or matches a lot of other cable programming... |
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Post by bobc on Jun 23, 2011 11:08:36 GMT -5
It's terrible. Corporations are no longer interested in mediocre showings. These ratings are considered disastrous by the powers that be (I have to be careful here so as not to burn a source) and everybody that worked so hard to make that series so great are very disappointed. The Conventional Wisdom is that EMH is by far the best animated series ever done by Marvel, which makes the lack of viewership especially vexing.
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Post by freedomfighter on Jun 23, 2011 12:49:56 GMT -5
It's terrible. Corporations are no longer interested in mediocre showings. These ratings are considered disastrous by the powers that be (I have to be careful here so as not to burn a source) and everybody that worked so hard to make that series so great are very disappointed. The Conventional Wisdom is that EMH is by far the best animated series ever done by Marvel, which makes the lack of viewership especially vexing. I'm very surprised by their expectations. The animation and character design is just okay- nowhere near the work DC has put into series like JLU or the Young Justice series (which is beautifully animated). I like it primarily because of the stories, but the show isn't the best looking I've seen by any stretch... Also according to this story, Kick Buttowski was their highest rated show in 2010 and had ratings under 700,000, which is below EMH's numbers. www.movieweb.com/news/disney-xd-wants-more-kick-buttowski-suburban-daredevilHow could they be expecting something so much stronger than their best performing show? That'd be like putting on a show after American Idol and expecting it to get better ratings and then being mad that it only did slightly better than your best show. I don't doubt your sources, I just think it's an odd expectation on their part. |
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Post by bobc on Jun 23, 2011 12:56:44 GMT -5
But FF you have to understand that DisneyXD is considered a boondoggle because none of it's shows are getting good ratings. Compared to the regular Disney channel, Disney XD is a disaster. EMH was getting a beatdown by SpongeBob re-runs on another channel! It may not be a fair comparison but it is reality, unfortunately.
I never saw the Justice League cartoon but heard it was very good.
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Post by tomspasic on Jun 23, 2011 13:11:31 GMT -5
I've posted in various places at various times as to the on-going demise of the comics industry.
Whilst I agree with some of your points, I don't think it can be laid entirely at Marvels giving the finger to those who kept them in business for 30-40 years (though that is definitely why I stopped buying, personally).
Almost all printed media are seeing declining sales. Newspapers, magazines, and comics certainly. I'm not sure about books, but suspect they may also be suffering. It's the effect of the internet age to a large extent, but also to tv/dvd/videogaming as well. We are shifting from a culture which was partly defined in print to one largely defined by moving image and sound.
As for comics, they in particular struggle to compete with the visual appeal of cgi aided blu-ray visuals, or the interactivity and community aspects of videogaming.
A large part of why the price keeps going up is not just greed, but the simple economic realities of the economy of scale. The unit cost to print one million is considerably lower than the unit cost to print one thousand. Just about everything becomes more expensive the less you make/sell.
Now throw in the lack of widespread distribution bought about by the move to specialist comic shops. When I was growing up collecting comics, I used to have a regular run through perhaps 20 newsagents (like US newsstands, but english) going into town to check for comics. And there were probably 50 other newsagents in my not terribly large (100000) city, maybe more. So every kid who went in to buy sweets would at some point see the spinner rack and be tempted.
Of course, now newsagents themselves are scarcer as well, probably a half as many, maybe even less than that. I loved the comic shop when it opened in my city, as a teenage collector, a place where all the issues came, with back-issues and other stuff was nirvana. But to the 8 year old on the other side of the city, it might as well not have existed, and once newsagents no longer carried (US) comics, generations of kids would simply never know such things existed.
I don't think that at this point it's likely to turn around and comics will start growing as an industry. I don't think it will die out entirely, to some extent it's already shifted into film and videogame territory as well.
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Post by bobc on Jun 23, 2011 15:53:17 GMT -5
I think you are right on all those points, Tom--but you didn't touch on why animated super hero series are not catching on. Over the past ten years I've seen Sponge Bob, Powerpuff Girls, Dexter's Laboratory, and things like that catch on like wildfire, so I am thinking there is something about the concept of super heroes that isn't clicking with kids. As most people here know, I do video games for a living, so I am very interested in this not just because I'm a comic collector, but for my line of work. Whenever I meet kids under the age of 16 or so, I always ask if they like super heroes, and if so, which ones. In the 90's, virtually every kid liked super heroes, and would usually name Wolverine or Batman or somebody like that. In the past decade, I have yet to meet a kid who even likes super heroes, let alone has a favorite. They all know Mario, Zelda and other video game characters, however.
Getting back to your thoughts on the commercial decline of comics, I can add that a few years ago I was friends with a very famous Marvel artist, and he told me that the biggest reason prices have skyrocketed in the past decade has been the rise in the price of paper. As coloring techniques got more complicated via graphics programs like Photoshop, the quality of the paper had to be higher to convey the more subtle shading and color blends. If the fine "air-brushing" was ever printed on the old school, low end stock, it would become a muddy mess.
So I guess you could say all the reasons stated on this thread created a "perfect storm" for comic books. I'm just happy I got into comics when I did and have those back issues to check out.
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Post by tomspasic on Jun 23, 2011 17:07:30 GMT -5
I know very little about the animated "scene". As an adult, living in england who watches only the free-to-air "terrestrial" channels, cartoons tend to pass me by.
Of all the animated superhero stuff made, AEMH is the only one I've sought out and watched. I've heard good things of many of the other series, but basically would have to spend money or pirate them to see them, and I'm happy to wait till eventually they show up for free at a time I watch tv (some are on in the mornings here, I rarely watch tv then).
Thus, from a near-complete outsiders point of view, I was under the impression that superhero shows were something of a perennial in animation. There always seems to be at least one being made, often more. Compared to live-action superhero shows, they are thriving (ie getting made at all).
True, I often hear this or that animated show is cancelled, but then within a year, some other show is made. So it seems either there are some really die-hard fans pushing these shows out regardless of continued failure, or they get commisioned because of some sort of success, relative to other "properties".
I guess perhaps the idea of a pre-existing audience for a show (ie comic readers) must appeal a bit, but apart from that, I cannot imagine why they would keep going back to the well for a completely failed genre. That's not how businesses tend to work. They don't sit round saying "hey, none of these superhero shows have been hits, why not try yet again, losing yet more money?"
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