The 14

[pym]

Hello

I am new here...and I would not want to presume upon the kind posters in this place.

Still....I am Silver Age dedicated...and I miss that ethos.

If anyone knows what I mean about The 14....whether you agree with that assessment or not....I would welcome your input with great gladness.

Be well

[pym]

Ok....I think in terms of teams and milestones.

There have been many different 'teams' of Avengers over the years....whether official or not.
There have been many milestones over the years. The most significant for me ....being a Silver Age knucklehead...was issue #100.

...and that brings me to The 14.....

[sharkar]

Aha! So is this is a "The 14 Best Avengers" or "The 14 Classic Avengers" thread, then? Or even "Your 14 favorite Avengers?" Heck, why didn't you just say so in the first place? ;D

You mentioned Avengers #100--so here are 12 Assemblers from that wonderful issue. I'll throw two more into the mix to get to your magic number of 14: Hercules and Black Widow (Herc joined in #45 and left soon after--he appears in #100 but is not shown on these two pages; and it was stated that BW was offered membership in #45 but declined. As we know, she'd officially join the team later on).

Yep--these are my idea of the Avengers!

[pym]

sharkar....thank you!
Your graphics made me smile.
I salute you....and would be proud to call you friend.

My 14th is actually the Swordsman...who appears later.......but I have a deep lament that the Black Widow was not included.

I also have thoughts on Wonder Man...and Red Wolf, who is stated to be an honorary Avenger in the 1977 Marvel Calendar....at least, I think it was the 1977 one.....perhaps 1978.

[owene]

Jan 29, 2011 15:39:13 GMT -5 sharkar said:

Yep--these are my idea of the Avengers!

Those, minus the Hulk, plus the Beast, Wonder Man and Captain Marvel (photon) would probably be the classics for me.

I'm not sure I even like Wonder Man all that much but he was there when I very first read the book (in british reprints form circa 1981 although the stories were a little older than that) and his (often off putting and unlikeable) life story have all been based in the book and major events for the team as a whole.

Captain marvel because I'm an 80s kid and the stern issues (and Secret Wars) are kind of the default team in my head.

[humanbelly]

Jan 30, 2011 5:59:08 GMT -5 owene said:

[Captain marvel because I'm an 80s kid and the stern issues (and Secret Wars) are kind of the default team in my head.

I do love this phenomenon, which has been mentioned a few times even during my tenure on this board: that a reader always "imprints" the Avengers as being whomever the team consisted of when they first started following the book. That's just. . . cool, y'know? Previous members? Enh-- they're old has-beens. Later recruits? Pfft-- johnny-come-latelies. I like the fact that different folks identify different rosters as being their Home Team, as it were. Heck, I have no doubt that the Gatherers Era team, for someone out there, stands above all others as the True Avengers Team. . .

HB

[pulpcitizen]

For me it is the 80's that helped form my opinion of 'classic' Avengers, but around the same time I was able to read pretty much a whole run from somewhere in the mid 20's issues through to the 200's, so as a whole my 'core' characters feature many of those.

[Doctor Bong]

Jan 31, 2011 20:41:46 GMT -5 humanbelly said:

Jan 30, 2011 5:59:08 GMT -5 owene said:

[Captain marvel because I'm an 80s kid and the stern issues (and Secret Wars) are kind of the default team in my head.

I do love this phenomenon, which has been mentioned a few times even during my tenure on this board: that a reader always "imprints" the Avengers as being whomever the team consisted of when they first started following the book. That's just. . . cool, y'know? Previous members? Enh-- they're old has-beens. Later recruits? Pfft-- johnny-come-latelies. I like the fact that different folks identify different rosters as being their Home Team, as it were. Heck, I have no doubt that the Gatherers Era team, for someone out there, stands above all others as the True Avengers Team. . .

HB

Heyyyyyyyyy....! I LOVE Crystal and Thor II as Avengers, I'll have ya know...

[owene]

Jan 31, 2011 20:41:46 GMT -5 humanbelly said:

Jan 30, 2011 5:59:08 GMT -5 owene said:

[Captain marvel because I'm an 80s kid and the stern issues (and Secret Wars) are kind of the default team in my head.

I do love this phenomenon, which has been mentioned a few times even during my tenure on this board: that a reader always "imprints" the Avengers as being whomever the team consisted of when they first started following the book. That's just. . . cool, y'know? Previous members? Enh-- they're old has-beens. Later recruits? Pfft-- johnny-come-latelies. I like the fact that different folks identify different rosters as being their Home Team, as it were. Heck, I have no doubt that the Gatherers Era team, for someone out there, stands above all others as the True Avengers Team. . .

HB

thats a frightening thought but it's probably true

The charge definitely hits home for me. Most of my early comics memories are from British Marvel reprints and these would hang around and turn up in very weird places.

My grandmother always stocked up on some from jumble sales whenever my brother and I were due to stay, and I'd always be allowed to have 1 or 2 on holidays but i didn't get them regularly and I got quite random stories.

I remember reading the first taskmaster story a few others from that micheline period, the conclusion to the Thanos war, the statue of the Black Knight story from the 150s (which introduced me to the defenders) and (in really old ones) the space phantom/Grim Reaper story, and the sentinels story from just after issue 100. A real mishmash of periods

When I became old enough to buy things regularly Spider-Man weekly (reprinting the Stern run and the Mantlo Peter Parkers) and Secret Wars were the only Marvel UK comics available so it was the Wasp/Captain Marvel/She Hulk line up that got imprinted

[sharkar]

Jan 30, 2011 2:06:48 GMT -5 pym said:

My 14th is actually the Swordsman...who appears later.......

The Swordsman--of course! ;D Well then, pym, this is for you--here's your 14!

[sharkar]

Jan 30, 2011 5:59:08 GMT -5 owene said:

Captain marvel because I'm an 80s kid and the stern issues (and Secret Wars) are kind of the default team in my head.

Jan 31, 2011 20:41:46 GMT -5 humanbelly said:

I do love this phenomenon, which has been mentioned a few times even during my tenure on this board: that a reader always "imprints" the Avengers as being whomever the team consisted of when they first started following the book. That's just. . . cool, y'know? Previous members? Enh-- they're old has-beens. Later recruits? Pfft-- johnny-come-latelies. I like the fact that different folks identify different rosters as being their Home Team, as it were.

Default Team, Home Team...what great ways of putting it! I guess you never forget your first love, do you? And actually, for the longest time I considered Thor, Iron Man and even Cap to be "guest stars"... here's "my" team:



Boy, I'll never forget the sinking feeling I had when I saw this:


Then when some newbie named Vision joined a few issues later, I got really upset. Why oh why had Roy gotten rid of Wanda, Pietro and Herc? Why didn't he have Natasha join? Man, I sure resented T'Challa and Vision back then!

;D

[humanbelly]

Feb 4, 2011 12:44:12 GMT -5 sharkar said:

[
Boy, I'll never forget the sinking feeling I had when I saw this:


Then when some newbie named Vision joined a few issues later, I got really upset. Why oh why had Roy gotten rid of Wanda, Pietro and Herc? Why didn't he have Natasha join? Man, I sure resented T'Challa and Vision back then!

;D

*sigh*--- Man, those silver-age corner rectangles were always such a deeply iconic Marvel trait for me. I've always missed them-- and was so pleased when the Avengers returned to them for several years. And, y'know, EMH is kind of echoing their use with the shifting roster shot at the end of the intro each week.

But, boy, VERY unfortunate Black Panther resume' shot for those first couple of issues, eh? "The Titanic TeddyBear-Man" "The Black Panda" "Mr. Meerkat"

Heh-heh-heh. Er. . . sorry, bobc. . .

And I. . . I used to sometimes lay the books out in a long, over-lapping row- w/ just the corner boxes showing- so I could look at the roster changes as long, shifting stream of images. . . (which, to my older sensibilities, sounds like I was edging dangerously over the line into obsession--- I'm forced to admit that to myself now. . . )

HB

[pym]

Feb 4, 2011 12:37:53 GMT -5 sharkar said:

Jan 30, 2011 2:06:48 GMT -5 pym said:

My 14th is actually the Swordsman...who appears later.......

The Swordsman--of course! ;D Well then, pym, this is for you--here's your 14!

Many Thanks!

[pym]

Very cool to read all of your posts.

Greetings!

I wish I had the means to post graphics like many of you have done.

There are many teams within teams....or 'sub-teams' as well.

Two of my most memorable occur in # 56....Death Be Not Proud
...and # 62 .....The Monarch and the Man Ape

[humanbelly]

Feb 4, 2011 19:21:09 GMT -5 pym said:

Feb 4, 2011 12:37:53 GMT -5 sharkar said:

The Swordsman--of course! ;D Well then, pym, this is for you--here's your 14!

Many Thanks!

And ol' HB claims the Crown of Lame-itude prize once again!
I never, never noticed that Swordy was represented there on the cover-- clearly that shadowed figure between Cap & Hulk. Wow. Some really great moments from this issue, though, eh? The double splash page, of course, being a prime one--- what a terrific poster this would make, or-- wow-- a jigsaw puzzle! Yes!
I particularly like the Hulk sitting quietly apart on the boulder in the leafy moon shadows.

-- Iron Man taking a HARD crash early in the issue and not showing up until near the end.

-- The Hulk cheerfully blocking up one of the escape portals, and ultimately enjoying the captive company of . . .the Enchantress, yes? ("Pretty girl, hey?"-- a DELIGHTFUL small moment for him that goes a long way toward revealing his humanity.)

Now, that's all I've got off the very immediate top of my head--- but it's been a few years, y'know. . .

The cover's not my favorite Barry Smith work, actually. Although it's plenty cool, it feels to me like the figures were drawn separately and then pasted into the configuration. Everyone seems to be foreshortened very inconsistently--- look particularly at Cap & Thor's receding legs (and the strange way they cross), and then at Quicksilver right behind them. And the Hulk next to them. But, good heavens, I'm being a hopeless nit-picker. My buddy and I LOVED this issue when it came out--- many very happy memories of it!

HB

[humanbelly]

Feb 4, 2011 19:30:22 GMT -5 pym said:

Very cool to read all of your posts.

Greetings!

I wish I had the means to post graphics like many of you have done.

There are many teams within teams....or 'sub-teams' as well.

Two of my most memorable occur in # 56....Death Be Not Proud
...and # 62 .....The Monarch and the Man Ape

Wow, pym, you're smack in the midst of my personal Home Team era, here-- which oddly enough was a run with almost continuous roster upheaval and sub-teams, as you put it. But yep, #62's team was sort of comprised of #61's team, minus guest-star Dr. Strange. For the record (and if memory serves me), that was Hawkeye, Black Knight, Black Panther & Vision. Along with the briefly face-masked Doc Strange, they took on a couple of Asgardian-ish demons ("Some Say the World Will End in Fire. . . Some Say in Ice"). Really solid, engaging story, and GUH-REAT John Buscema art! Just kind of an in-between story during a period when the team was in tremendous flux--- but an absolute masterpiece of a one-issue tale. Certainly a forgotten classic-that-never-was.

HB

[pym]

Hello HB!

My friend.....I was actually quite torn as to whether include Dr. Strange in on this one. You are spot on, here. ( the Robert Frost quotes were memorable)
I chose to go with the next issue ( and team ) .....it somehow captured the season....with a dose of melancholy.
The two issues work very well as companions.

[pym]

Feb 4, 2011 12:44:12 GMT -5 sharkar said:

Then when some newbie named Vision joined a few issues later, I got really upset. Why oh why had Roy gotten rid of Wanda, Pietro and Herc? Why didn't he have Natasha join? Man, I sure resented T'Challa and Vision back then!

;D

I know exactly what you mean.

[pym]

The reason that I really love #56.....is that it seems like a certain twilight for the Avengers that we once knew.

Just before ......
......we had recently witnessed their ranks swell to epic proportions ( Annual #1 )...only to dwindle down....one by one, and leave us with just Hawkeye, Hank and Jan.

This left us uncertain.

We had seen T'Challa in the pages of FF and regarded him with honor.....but there was no real powerhouse character, like IM or Thor.

X-Men crossover was colorful....but filler as I see it.

Then....just before the addition of the Avenger that would change everything....Cap returns in a tale that would haunt us..... as a reminder of what heroes really are...and what they sacrifice.

[spiderwasp]

Feb 4, 2011 14:53:01 GMT -5 humanbelly said:

And I. . . I used to sometimes lay the books out in a long, over-lapping row- w/ just the corner boxes showing- so I could look at the roster changes as long, shifting stream of images. . . (which, to my older sensibilities, sounds like I was edging dangerously over the line into obsession--- I'm forced to admit that to myself now. . . )

HB

Ha. I would totally make fun of you for such geekiness if I didn't remember doing the same thing with the characters on the righthand side of my Marvel Team-Ups and Two-In-Ones to look at the assortment of characters who appeared there so I guess I really can't cast any stones. ;D

[humanbelly]

Feb 4, 2011 12:44:12 GMT -5 sharkar said:

[Default Team, Home Team...what great ways of putting it! I guess you never forget your first love, do you? And actually, for the longest time I considered Thor, Iron Man and even Cap to be "guest stars"... here's "my" team:



Boy, I'll never forget the sinking feeling I had when I saw this:


;D

Yep, yep-- and I'm pretty sure I recall that Quicksilver is one of your favorite Avengers, am I right? Wanda, too? (Trying to remember if you've expanded on her as much--). And that all ties in to them being on your Home Team, right? (Whereas Hawkeye and Vision are pretty much permanent residents on mine.) What about our boy Hercules, though? Granted, after being a "guest" for about a year (and saving their hash in several instances) he then left, like, an issue or three after being made an official member-- but he was unquestionably the powerhouse of that squad, eh?
Recall the panel in #58 (I think we've mentioned it here somewhere before--), showing all of the past members and "those who were merely called"-? When I first saw that back in the late 60's, I had no idea who Herc, Wanda, & Pietro were. They were simply mysterious figures from distant Avengers' rosters past, and carried no emotional weight for me at all. In reality, they were barely a few months removed from activity-(!!)- but I imagine that's the power that imprinting (as it were) has on us, even when we're unaware of it.

Oh golly, I'm awfully chatty lately. A lot of idle time while HB-Girl (daughter) has been at dance classes and what-not. . .

HB

[humanbelly]

Feb 5, 2011 0:04:07 GMT -5 spiderwasp said:

Feb 4, 2011 14:53:01 GMT -5 humanbelly said:

And I. . . I used to sometimes lay the books out in a long, over-lapping row- w/ just the corner boxes showing- so I could look at the roster changes as long, shifting stream of images. . . (which, to my older sensibilities, sounds like I was edging dangerously over the line into obsession--- I'm forced to admit that to myself now. . . )

HB

Ha. I would totally make fun of you for such geekiness if I didn't remember doing the same thing with the characters on the righthand side of my Marvel Team-Ups and Two-In-Ones to look at the assortment of characters who appeared there so I guess I really can't cast any stones. ;D

Oho-- that's RIGHT, Mr. SpiderGlassHouseWasp! Boyoboy. . .
Sounds like we may be bordering on a dangerous new thread tangient, though. . . "True Confessions of Avengers Anonymous" or something like that.

"I sold my wife's engagement ring so I could score a NM copy of Avengers #9-!" (I mean, no, I didn't-- that's just a hyperbolic example. . . )

HB

[Doctor Bong]

My dream team (as of now...) would be: Hawkeye, Songbird, Wasp, Giant-Man, Iron Man, Tigra, Quicksilver and Crystal.
Hmm... a grouping somewhat lacking in the power department, even if Shellhead's smarter and more powerful than ever... .
As you can see, I'm quite possibly the weirdo here, 'cause my first memories of the Avengers belong to the Kree-Skrull War era, but in my dream team I have 5 people (more than half the team...!) who weren't around at the time: Hank, Jan, Tigra, Crystal and Songbird... . And Clint wasn't even Hawkeye at the time!
Ok, ok... technically, we could say Hank was part of the saga, but only at the very beginning (even if it was arguably THE BEST part of it all). He didn't take part in the intergalactic adventure.

[sharkar]

Feb 5, 2011 9:32:01 GMT -5 humanbelly said:

Yep, yep-- and I'm pretty sure I recall that Quicksilver is one of your favorite Avengers, am I right? Wanda, too? (Trying to remember if you've expanded on her as much--). And that all ties in to them being on your Home Team, right?... What about our boy Hercules, though?

Well, I can take or leave Herc, but he's on my default team because--as some wise soul said recently -- "a reader always 'imprints' the Avengers as being whomever the team consisted of when they first started following the book." ***

My first issue was #45 (about a year before you, or pym, started with #58). #45 featured Cap, Wanda, Pietro, Hank, Jan, Hawkeye and Herc as active heroes, with elder statesmen Iron Man and Thor departing halfway through the issue. Then my next issue was #47 (I missed #46); in #47 Cap quit; and IM and Thor didn't appear. So my default team was Hank, Jan, Hawkeye, Wanda, Pietro, and Herc. I read a few more issues and missed a couple (#50-52). And as mentioned when I saw the cover of #53, I became very upset--because I knew then that "my" team was no more!

And yeah, Wanda is my uncontested, all-time, numero uno favorite Avenger. Ever.
vplexico.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=classicavengers&thread=841&page=2#32162



***Though this is not always the case--see Bong's inspired team.

[humanbelly]

Feb 8, 2011 23:06:47 GMT -5 sharkar said:

[
And yeah, Wanda is my uncontested, all-time, numero uno favorite Avenger. Ever.
vplexico.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=classicavengers&thread=841&page=2#32162


.

Oh yeah! Now I remember that conversation-- boy, I can't believe it was over a year ago. . . . I wonder if our insertion of Harvey characters killed that thread. . . ? ;D

(I didn't even get to mention Sad Sack. Hmm--- what if he'd been given the super-soldier serum?)

HB

[humanbelly]

Feb 8, 2011 12:12:41 GMT -5 Doctor Bong said:

My dream team (as of now...) would be: Hawkeye, Songbird, Wasp, Giant-Man, Iron Man, Tigra, Quicksilver and Crystal.
.

Wow, Doc, "Dream Team" or "Interpersonal Armageddon Nightmare Team"?? The personal storyline potential here would be dynamite--- I would TOTALLY be on board with this team, just to see if they could function while deeply liking, hating, loving, desiring, being jealous of, resentful toward, faithful to, etc each other the entire time! Relevant items:

Songbird was throwing herself at Hawkeye, at one point.
Hank & Jan are divorced.
Wasp has slept with Hank, Clint & (probably) Tony.
Tigra has sort of slept with Hank.
Crystal & Pietro are bitterly divorced, and she's unhappily married yet again ('tho I may be behind on that score).
Hawkeye & Quicksilver joined the team together, but have never had a friendly relationship at all.
Hawkeye, Jan, Tony, and Hank have all been team leaders in one form or another (Hawkeye & Jan being the best, IMO).
Tony, we presume, is still a guy prone to thinking w/ his hormones, yes? On a team w/ at least two attractive women (Tigra & Crystal) who may seem receptive to that sort of attention? Or does he come-on to unconquered Melissa? (He makes me crazy-- the whole "playboy" shtick is extremely unpalatable to me, but it does give him a very recognizable character flaw).

Ohhhhh, it's juicier than the pairings-off on a high school band trip! Or perhaps a very small touring theater troupe-! Who'll pair off w/ whom?

I'm thinking. . . Hank & Jan back together (more or less), out of familiarity, a long shared history, and (oddly enough) trust. I see Crystal pursuing Clint, but him having none of it, and (depending on if Bobbi's alive or dead these days) either standing alone, or becoming closer to Melissa. Pietro will, of course, chase Crystal yet again, and be infuriated by her attentions toward Clint. Tigra and Tony could easily get together casually, but he would throw her over once Crystal turns to him w/ her Inhuman ways-- since she's spurned by Clint, and is actively avoiding Pietro's attentions. Out of mutual heartbreak, resentment, and rejection, Pietro & Tigra form an unlikely bond (hoo-boy--- nothing good coming from that. . . ).

Wow, it'd be like the Vision/Wanda/Mantis/Swordsman quadrangle subplot on steroids! How does one fight Terrax the Tamer and choke back the bitter tears of a broken heart at the same time??

um. . . was this the sort of vision you had with this team, Doc? Am I stomping all over your dream?

HB

[Doctor Bong]

Yes, more or less those were the general lines of my thinking, but I must say you gave the situation even more thought than I did.
And Tigra flirted with Hank, Tony AND Simon during her stint with the West Coasters... .
I would like to see how they would deal with leadership issues in a team with 3 or 4 capable leaders, but without Cap being around. Historically, Tony has a problem with playing nice when he isn't in charge himself, even when he's the one who put them in charge in the first place...!

[sharkar]

Feb 5, 2011 9:32:01 GMT -5 humanbelly said:

Recall the panel in #58 (I think we've mentioned it here somewhere before--), showing all of the past members and "those who were merely called"-? When I first saw that back in the late 60's, I had no idea who Herc, Wanda, & Pietro were. They were simply mysterious figures from distant Avengers' rosters past, and carried no emotional weight for me at all. In reality, they were barely a few months removed from activity-(!!)- but I imagine that's the power that imprinting (as it were) has on us, even when we're unaware of it.

That reminds me of my first issue of Adventure, #357, with the Legion of Super-Heroes. The story featured seven Legionnaires--Saturn Girl, Brainiac 5, Superboy (of course), Cosmic Boy, Princess Projectra, Sun Boy, and the deceased Ferro Lad (his ghost). But there were a couple of panels picturing some of the other Legionnaires (unnamed). It was very intriguing and made me want to read more issues, to find out who these other characters were.

And yes, I remember our discussion of that full-page panel in #58. As I mentioned back then, I loved seeing Pietro, Wanda and Natasha--'cause to me it meant that Roy hadn't forgotten that them, so I still held out hope they'd return--but WTF was SPIDER-MAN doing there??? (As I mentioned in that older post, back then I was unaware that in Spider-Man Annual #3, the Avengers wanted Spidey to join the team). But I remember thinking boy, Avengers sales must have been really low if Marvel had to resort to crass commercialism by including Spider-Man (I knew he was Marvel's most popular character) in #58's assemblage... ;D

[humanbelly]

Mar 3, 2011 19:13:00 GMT -5 sharkar said:

Feb 5, 2011 9:32:01 GMT -5 humanbelly said:

Recall the panel in #58 (I think we've mentioned it here somewhere before--), showing all of the past members and "those who were merely called"-? When I first saw that back in the late 60's, I had no idea who Herc, Wanda, & Pietro were. They were simply mysterious figures from distant Avengers' rosters past, and carried no emotional weight for me at all. In reality, they were barely a few months removed from activity-(!!)- but I imagine that's the power that imprinting (as it were) has on us, even when we're unaware of it.

That reminds me of my first issue of Adventure, #357, with the Legion of Super-Heroes. The story featured seven Legionnaires--Saturn Girl, Brainiac 5, Superboy (of course), Cosmic Boy, Princess Projectra, Sun Boy, and the deceased Ferro Lad (his ghost). But there were a couple of panels picturing some of the other Legionnaires (unnamed). It was very intriguing and made me want to read more issues, to find out who these other characters were.

And yes, I remember our discussion of that full-page panel in #58. As I mentioned back then, I loved seeing Pietro, Wanda and Natasha--'cause to me it meant that Roy hadn't forgotten that them, so I still held out hope they'd return--but WTF was SPIDER-MAN doing there??? (As I mentioned in that older post, back then I was unaware that in Spider-Man Annual #3, the Avengers wanted Spidey to join the team). But I remember thinking boy, Avengers sales must have been really low if Marvel had to resort to crass commercialism by including Spider-Man (I knew he was Marvel's most popular character) in #58's assemblage... ;D

I'm always delighted (and blown away!) by how you're always able to pull up an appropriate visual aid reference for any discussion! (I think your "twin sons" head shots of Steve Rogers & Robert Redford awhile back may have been your award-winner so far. . . ) Thanks for including this page-- I haven't revisited it in quite a long while. Now I also remember that I wondered why Goliath didn't have his goggles on here, since that was largely the only difference in his uniform at that point.

As I now view this with a slightly more critical eye--- does it look just a bit patched-together to you, maybe? Kind of odd perspectives & proportions? And even as a kid I thought Spidey's mask looked very. . . off, here.

Ahh, but still a terrific "bonus pin-up", as it were. The smell of old newsprint somehow reaches me olfac'tries just thinkin' about it. . .

HB

P.S.-- Hey, almost 14 in this panel! 13, in fact. . .

[pym]

Mar 4, 2011 20:17:32 GMT -5 humanbelly said:

Mar 3, 2011 19:13:00 GMT -5 sharkar said:

Ahh, but still a terrific "bonus pin-up", as it were. The smell of old newsprint somehow reaches me olfac'tries just thinkin' about it. . .

HB

P.S.-- Hey, almost 14 in this panel! 13, in fact. . .

....and not just the newsprint, but that old acid-etch printing process that was used...before the flexo-graph.....down in Sparta.
( man o man...I hope that I remembered that right )

Thank you friends....for keeping this thread alive.

Be well!