Mighty Avengers 34

[spiderwasp]

Spoiler alert






Okay, is Slott trying to redeem Hank Pym as a character or just further make a joke out of him? One minute, he seems like a fan of the character and is really trying to showcase him as the foremost scientific genius in the MU. The next, he has Hank behave like a complete moron and reinforce the idea that has been popular over the last few years that he's an idiot. Why in the world would Hank ask Loki to join his team? It was completely out of the blue and there's no way any rational human being could have expected any different response than the ones given by Loki and his teammates. This was an out of character moment to rival Bendis.
I also didn't understand why it would be so awful for a human to challenge one of the gods, especially Loki. Haven't the Avengers been fighting Loki, as well as the Enchantress, Ares, Pluto etc. for years? Okay, the torture may have been over the top but the issue for Thor seemed to be more that Loki was a god and Hank was overstepping his bounds. Again - not consistent with history.
This, to me, was the weakest issue since Slott took over. It felt like he had gotten a directive that the book was ending and he needed to break up the team so he just said "What the hell? I give up."
I expect the worst from Bendis so I can't really be disappointed anymore. I expect better from Slott - just my opinion of course.

[Doctor Bong]

I'm all for the idea of redeeming the character of Hank Pym, but I do get a little tired of the trend in comics where a writer, in order to show how good/badass/extreme/ultimate his character is, proceeds to defeat (or outhink) any other number of characters, often making those other characters look bad, stupid or ridiculous... Examples I can think of right away are Hank Pym in MA, the Red Hulk and the Black Panther.

[starfoxxx]

I actually enjoyed this issue, and it was a tad bittersweet, knowing that MA is cancelled.

It's no spoiler that Thor appears, since its on the cover. The Thunder God's inclusion in this ish gave me a feeling that this was an ACTUAL Avengers story, as well as the Jarvis stuff (although ol' Jarv is a bit a$$-kissy, this line-up ain't that great), and the "breakfast table" scene, and actual FIGHT with some trolls..... I was digging it.....but, yeah, that "joke" scene at the end seemed so , I don't know, DUMB...sheesh....

Slott's take on the Avengers is closer to the BWA-HA-HA Giffen Justice League, that's just the feeling I get....Like many of the team's "modern" scribes, the tone doesn't draw from greatness of the high points in team history, something that, in recent years,only Busiek has been able to capture, IMO.

[humanbelly]

That Giffen comparison is very apt-- I completely agree.
Something that was generally missing for me- and should have been there- is the sense of shared history for Hank, Hercules, and Quicksilver in particular. They were all on the team together starting in issue #38. In 1966! And then in&out&in&out for all three of them in all of the intervening years. Herc's really been on the team a lot more than I suspect people realize. FAR more than "mainstay" Thor, for that matter. But my point is that a particular sense of familiarity between these volatile stalwarts would have provided a great dynamic-- and was lacking.
But boy, I'd MUCH rather see that get worked in than have this book end. A flawed title, but I've gotten honest enjoyment out of it-- which I'll miss.

HB

[spiderwasp]

Mar 21, 2010 16:55:51 GMT -5 humanbelly said:

But boy, I'd MUCH rather see that get worked in than have this book end. A flawed title, but I've gotten honest enjoyment out of it-- which I'll miss.

HB

Amen. Even though I can find faults with certain things in this book, particularly at the end of this issue, I have been enjoying it more than almost anything Marvel has put out in years. That's why I should have known it's days were numbered.

[nojarama]

They have conspiracy theories abundant, as to Pym's action, on other boards... but I can't wait to see what really happens in the next issue!

[freedomfighter]

When I was a teen, I had a plot in mind where Loki walks up to the mansion door and says he wants to join the Avengers. He's had a change of heart, he says and wants to fight the good fight.
What are you gonna do?
You kind of have to let him join don't you?
If nothing else, to keep an eye on him...
If Slott's story had unfolded better, it could have been shown that there was nothing to lose by recruiting Loki.
If he says no, you lose nothing, but you have planted a seed that there's always atonement for his actions, which may come to fruition one day.
If he says yes and is insincere, you observe him and can make plans to take him down instead of waiting for him to strike.
If he says yes and is sincere, then you take away one of your greatest enemies.
Storywise it works better if he turns on them, but walks away knowing that he had a chance to be a part of greatness.
But it would have been worth exploring in my opinion. Unlike Ares who was just suddenly a good guy and accepted without question...

[Doctor Bong]

Apr 8, 2010 22:29:38 GMT -5 freedomfighter said:

When I was a teen, I had a plot in mind where Loki walks up to the mansion door and says he wants to join the Avengers. He's had a change of heart, he says and wants to fight the good fight.
What are you gonna do?
You kind of have to let him join don't you?
If nothing else, to keep an eye on him...
If Slott's story had unfolded better, it could have been shown that there was nothing to lose by recruiting Loki.
If he says no, you lose nothing, but you have planted a seed that there's always atonement for his actions, which may come to fruition one day.
If he says yes and is insincere, you observe him and can make plans to take him down instead of waiting for him to strike.
If he says yes and is sincere, then you take away one of your greatest enemies.
Storywise it works better if he turns on them, but walks away knowing that he had a chance to be a part of greatness.
But it would have been worth exploring in my opinion. Unlike Ares who was just suddenly a good guy and accepted without question...

Or it could have happened sometime after the Avengers-Defenders War, when Loki was left in a child-like state in it's aftermath, if the Avengers would have kept him in their custody instead of leaving him in Rutland with Tom Fagan. What do you think, ff...? .

[freedomfighter]

Apr 9, 2010 0:33:07 GMT -5 Doctor Bong said:

Apr 8, 2010 22:29:38 GMT -5 freedomfighter said:

When I was a teen, I had a plot in mind where Loki walks up to the mansion door and says he wants to join the Avengers. He's had a change of heart, he says and wants to fight the good fight.
What are you gonna do?
You kind of have to let him join don't you?
If nothing else, to keep an eye on him...
If Slott's story had unfolded better, it could have been shown that there was nothing to lose by recruiting Loki.
If he says no, you lose nothing, but you have planted a seed that there's always atonement for his actions, which may come to fruition one day.
If he says yes and is insincere, you observe him and can make plans to take him down instead of waiting for him to strike.
If he says yes and is sincere, then you take away one of your greatest enemies.
Storywise it works better if he turns on them, but walks away knowing that he had a chance to be a part of greatness.
But it would have been worth exploring in my opinion. Unlike Ares who was just suddenly a good guy and accepted without question...

Or it could have happened sometime after the Avengers-Defenders War, when Loki was left in a child-like state in it's aftermath, if the Avengers would have kept him in their custody instead of leaving him in Rutland with Tom Fagan. What do you think, ff...? .

that's an excellent bit of history to jump off from. I think that could be in its own way a really moving story, much like the Joseph/Magneto storyline had the possibility to be (for those who don't know what I'm talking about, Joseph was supposedly a young Magneto somehow rejuvenated who realized all the death and destruction he caused during his evil mutant days. sadly he turned out to be a...clone, grrrr.)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_%28comics%29
i think the loki right after avengers/defenders war who was slow to get his personality back and would eventually reawaken, to have been doing good for a while would have been interesting.
my version was right around avengers 300, just before cap reformed the team. they were demoralized and fractured. no better time to put the final nail in their coffin. Loki would've turned on them, but not destroyed them and taken some small pride in knowing something he in essence created was such an indefatigable force for justice, much like a bad parent can be proud of a good child...

[humanbelly]

Apr 8, 2010 22:29:38 GMT -5 freedomfighter said:

When I was a teen, I had a plot in mind where Loki walks up to the mansion door and says he wants to join the Avengers. He's had a change of heart, he says and wants to fight the good fight.
What are you gonna do?
You kind of have to let him join don't you?
If nothing else, to keep an eye on him...
If Slott's story had unfolded better, it could have been shown that there was nothing to lose by recruiting Loki.
If he says no, you lose nothing, but you have planted a seed that there's always atonement for his actions, which may come to fruition one day.
If he says yes and is insincere, you observe him and can make plans to take him down instead of waiting for him to strike.
If he says yes and is sincere, then you take away one of your greatest enemies.
Storywise it works better if he turns on them, but walks away knowing that he had a chance to be a part of greatness.
But it would have been worth exploring in my opinion. Unlike Ares who was just suddenly a good guy and accepted without question...

I had meant to come back directly to your post here, FF, 'cause this is indeed a very, very rich premise, and I really like how you've considered alternative plot tracks from the get-go. (And now the industry's been subtly stealing it from you. . . curse'd dogs. . . )
The only thing. . .and I do mean the ONLY thing. . . that gives me a problem is that I can't see "Immortal" characters like Loki exhibiting that kind of fundamental change in their nature in what, for them, is a ridiculously short span of time. I actually WOULD like to see someone as profoundly bad as him have an epiphany and make a sincere, determined effort to reform--- and for the long-term, not simply as a story device. I know we touched on this with the recent discussion of Ares, but I think that, for all of their unimaginable power, these Greek & Asgardian God folks all have a seriously fatal flaw in their makeup: with a few notable exceptions, they are inherently incapable of fundamental or sustained personal growth. The biggest of revelations do. . . not. . . stick (see: Zeus at the end of the Assault on Olympus arc. Where'd all that resolve disappear to?). Loki, the Lord of Lies has yet again pretty much destroyed Asgard & Earth, while committing atrocities and murder, and all of his fellow-gods begrudgingly allow him to ingratiate himself back into the tightest of inner circles.
Why are they like that? And why has their power so clearly outstripped their personal evolutionary development? Clearly, the "humans" are far more advanced in that regard. I've never followed Thor enough to know if it's ever been addressed directly, but man, THERE might be the inciting factor for your story. Get to the nub of that, find out what the genomic anomaly is, and then I think you could be off to the races. Perhaps that gene is also tied to what keeps them immortal? What if Loki were to have that gene altered somehow, and become mortal? Would he also start to develop a more human "soul", as it were? A conscience? If so. . . why, yes-- absolutely yes, I think joining the Avengers even becomes the inevitable move for him (ruling out the obvious bid from the Thunderbolts, of course).

Wow, and so now here's ANOTHER great story that needs to be written-! Boy, you and Shiryu sure have a lot of homework to do. . . !

HB

[freedomfighter]

Apr 13, 2010 15:32:05 GMT -5 humanbelly said:

Apr 8, 2010 22:29:38 GMT -5 freedomfighter said:

When I was a teen, I had a plot in mind where Loki walks up to the mansion door and says he wants to join the Avengers. He's had a change of heart, he says and wants to fight the good fight.
What are you gonna do?
You kind of have to let him join don't you?
If nothing else, to keep an eye on him...
If Slott's story had unfolded better, it could have been shown that there was nothing to lose by recruiting Loki.
If he says no, you lose nothing, but you have planted a seed that there's always atonement for his actions, which may come to fruition one day.
If he says yes and is insincere, you observe him and can make plans to take him down instead of waiting for him to strike.
If he says yes and is sincere, then you take away one of your greatest enemies.
Storywise it works better if he turns on them, but walks away knowing that he had a chance to be a part of greatness.
But it would have been worth exploring in my opinion. Unlike Ares who was just suddenly a good guy and accepted without question...

I had meant to come back directly to your post here, FF, 'cause this is indeed a very, very rich premise, and I really like how you've considered alternative plot tracks from the get-go. (And now the industry's been subtly stealing it from you. . . curse'd dogs. . . )
The only thing. . .and I do mean the ONLY thing. . . that gives me a problem is that I can't see "Immortal" characters like Loki exhibiting that kind of fundamental change in their nature in what, for them, is a ridiculously short span of time. I actually WOULD like to see someone as profoundly bad as him have an epiphany and make a sincere, determined effort to reform--- and for the long-term, not simply as a story device. I know we touched on this with the recent discussion of Ares, but I think that, for all of their unimaginable power, these Greek & Asgardian God folks all have a seriously fatal flaw in their makeup: with a few notable exceptions, they are inherently incapable of fundamental or sustained personal growth. The biggest of revelations do. . . not. . . stick (see: Zeus at the end of the Assault on Olympus arc. Where'd all that resolve disappear to?). Loki, the Lord of Lies has yet again pretty much destroyed Asgard & Earth, while committing atrocities and murder, and all of his fellow-gods begrudgingly allow him to ingratiate himself back into the tightest of inner circles.
Why are they like that? And why has their power so clearly outstripped their personal evolutionary development? Clearly, the "humans" are far more advanced in that regard. I've never followed Thor enough to know if it's ever been addressed directly, but man, THERE might be the inciting factor for your story. Get to the nub of that, find out what the genomic anomaly is, and then I think you could be off to the races. Perhaps that gene is also tied to what keeps them immortal? What if Loki were to have that gene altered somehow, and become mortal? Would he also start to develop a more human "soul", as it were? A conscience? If so. . . why, yes-- absolutely yes, I think joining the Avengers even becomes the inevitable move for him (ruling out the obvious bid from the Thunderbolts, of course).

Wow, and so now here's ANOTHER great story that needs to be written-! Boy, you and Shiryu sure have a lot of homework to do. . . !

HB

You know I don't think that's the case about their being locked into certain patterns, but only because of an Alan Moore story where he took Myxzptlyk (yeah I didn't spell that right...) and explored the idea that he might become really bad just to see what it felt like.
As Moore pointed out, over the course of thousands and thousands of years, someone extremely long lived might just try on a couple of new personas just to see if they "fit."
And that to me sounds like something a bored God with no purpose might do. Loki has no real responsibilities so he can explore his options in terms of behavior.
And if you look at Simonson's run on Thor, Loki is often seen doing good things for the wrong reason.
I could see him wanting to pull a "long con" on the Avengers (although two or three years wouldn't be all that long to a God) just to make turning on them all the sweeter, and then finding their inherent decency messing with his head and taking the fun out of it for him.