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Post by bobc on Feb 24, 2010 16:58:31 GMT -5
Hey Guys! I just picked up the brand new Essential Daredevil edition which chronicles DD and the Black widow stories from the mid 70's--and I was surprised at how few of those stories I ever read as a kid! I really liked BW in the Avengers--but thank GOD I never read these DD issues because I would have hated her! Man all she ever did back then was whine and complain about the need to "find herself" and be out of DD's shadow! The Black Widow was like a walking, talking stale 70's feminist cliche! I can certainly see why DD's series wasn't selling back then! Natasha was also bipolar--constantly exploding and throwing tantrums! I had no idea she was like this in 70's Daredevil stories. At one point, BW goes psycho and beats some guy within an inch of his life, and Daredevil has to slap her to make her stop. In another startling installment, Natasha goes into yet another dreary feminist tirade, and DD just smacks her on the butt! SHOCKING!!
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Post by humanbelly on Feb 24, 2010 21:49:47 GMT -5
Hey Guys! I just picked up the brand new Essential Daredevil edition which chronicles DD and the Black widow stories from the mid 70's--and I was surprised at how few of those stories I ever read as a kid! I really liked BW in the Avengers--but thank GOD I never read these DD issues because I would have hated her! Man all she ever did back then was whine and complain about the need to "find herself" and be out of DD's shadow! The Black Widow was like a walking, talking stale 70's feminist cliche! I can certainly see why DD's series wasn't selling back then! Natasha was also bipolar--constantly exploding and throwing tantrums! I had no idea she was like this in 70's Daredevil stories. At one point, BW goes psycho and beats some guy within an inch of his life, and Daredevil has to slap her to make her stop. In another startling installment, Natasha goes into yet another dreary feminist tirade, and DD just smacks her on the butt! SHOCKING!! Yes, my pal's older brother bought just enough DD during that period to warrent my borrowing & reading them (his brother totally didn't hang onto his comics at all. We ransacked his collection at will. I still have several of those well-worn issues in my own collection now.). I'm pretty sure DD/BW was bi-monthly a lot of the time. And, man, I remember a looooooong storyline involving the Mandrill. Monkey-headed super genius with a sort of pheremonal power over women. Even as a gullible early teen I thought this was about this stupidest villain ever conceived. Had, like, a Blimp of Doom or some other airship command post. And Natasha actually left little lasting impression on me from then. Probably just as well. I like her best when she's ultra-competent & confident. Not when she's sleazy-- she doesn't need that. HB PS-- by the way, bobc, my son has mentioned that he'd like to get the Ghostbusters game. . . thinks it looks fun. So we'll be lookin' at your work before too long! (We have the Wii--- will your stuff read well on that?) HB again |
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Post by spiderwasp on Feb 24, 2010 23:18:51 GMT -5
I've never been much of a fan of the Black Widow and you may have hit on why. I haven't read any of those stories in years but my earliest memories of the character were from her time with Daredevil. It wasn't until later that I discovered her Avengers connection. By that time, I probably already had a preconcieved idea and dislike for her. I lot of female characters are among my favorite characters period (Wasp, She-Hulk, Scarlet Witch, Photon, Sersi, Invsible Woman, Hell-cat, Storm, Jubilee, Rogue, Dazzler, Arachne, Tigra, Crystal) but BW just left me cold.
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Post by bobc on Feb 25, 2010 10:18:14 GMT -5
HB--I worked on the XBox/PS3 version of Ghostbusters. The guys who did the Wii version took our assets and dumbed them down to work on the Wii (totally lower specs)--so if you play it on the Wii, it's sort of my stuff but made much simpler.
Yeah Mandrill is in this edition. Uhg. It was hard not to laugh!
Waspie--after reading these old DDBW stories, it's obvious that Natasha was supposed to be Marvel's trendy (for the time) feminist character. You know, that whole "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle" thing. Issue after issue after issue drags by with BW storming out, coming back, leaving to find herself, then waiting by a phone crying for Matt to call her, blah blah blah. BW also had this super annoying way of taking the simplest comment from DD the complete wrong way, and making a scene over it. Why DD would ever want this bipolar hag in the first place was beyond me.
BW got a lot better in later years, but Good GOD.
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Post by sharkar on Feb 25, 2010 20:07:35 GMT -5
Marvel basically reinvented her in 1970 when they gave Natasha her own series in Amazing Adventures. She was given a whole new look AND a new personality that that was very unlike her earlier Tales of Suspense/Avengers persona. Now instead of being cerebral, strong-willed and confident, she was weepy, introspective and indecisive.
I've read Essential Daredevil volume 4 (the volume that precedes the one Bob refers to), which contains the start of their relationship. Avengers #111 is also included; Englehart didn't handle Natasha any better than Conway or Gerber did (at least, not back then). For the most part I found the stories in DD vol. 4 unreadable; both her and Matt's characterizations were off kilter (hmm...I guess they brought out the worst in each other!). The saving grace of volume 4--no surprise --was the superlative Colan art: page after page of BW and DD's lithe, athletic bodies. (Colan did a few of her AA stories too; he draws a gorgeous Natasha.)
Luckily, she left DD. In the next series she appeared in, The Champions, she's closer to her old Suspense/Avengers persona: intelligent and decisive and not afraid to take charge.
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Post by bobc on Feb 26, 2010 9:40:41 GMT -5
Right, Sharky. I remember the couple of issues where she was in the Avengers (in the 70's), BW was throwing tantrums and whining, demanding to make her autonomy from DD and then running back to him 5 minutes later. "Indecisive" is a good term, bipolar might be better! Thank GOD the 70's are over!
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Post by sharkar on Feb 26, 2010 18:11:05 GMT -5
Right, Sharky. I remember the couple of issues where she was in the Avengers (in the 70's), BW was throwing tantrums and whining, demanding to make her autonomy from DD and then running back to him 5 minutes later. "Indecisive" is a good term, bipolar might be better! Thank GOD the 70's are over! LOL! Yep: indecisive, bipolar, schizoid...take your pick, they all apply to her in those Avengers issues you refer to: At the end of #111, she and DD are asked to join the Avengers. DD declines and assumes he's speaking for both of them (oh, Matt, you know what they say about ASSuming...  ). But BW says she will join the Avengers--because (as she thinks) it will give her time to assess their relationship. Then at the end of the very next issue, BW RESIGNS from the Avengers. Why? Well, you see she's learned she must follow her heart. What led her to this startling conclusion? In her own words: "Seeing Wanda run to the Vision" (quick, where's the nearest vomitorium?). T'Challa's response? He says well, BW, we only needed you for that one battle and now that it's over and done with, we don't need you anymore--see ya!! (OK, I'm paraphrasing). Then, twisting the knife even further, T'Challa rather pompously declares that he too has made a decision and that he will remain an Avenger! Gotta love Englehart. ;D |
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Post by humanbelly on Feb 27, 2010 10:27:22 GMT -5
I have to say, though, that the jumpsuit costume was a VAST improvement over the fishnet stockings, pointy mask, and girly half-cape of her formative years. This is something a spy would wear??
Hey, and a world-famous spy at that! Does anyone recall newspaper headlines being depicted, saying things like BLACK WIDOW TRAITOR and FAMOUS SPY DEFECTS and such things in some earlier Kooky Quartet issues?
I mean, isn't one of the first rules of spy-hood that you maintain, like, a low profile? Sort of blend in? Avoid the limelight? If an active spy is "famous" doesn't it sort of, you know, compromise their effectiveness?
(It's Stan again, god bless him. No such thing as mundane or run-of-the-mill. Can't just be a spy-- have to be a super-duper, sugar-coated, vitamin-enhanced WORLD FAMOUS spy!)
HB
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Post by bobc on Mar 1, 2010 14:47:05 GMT -5
I'm with you, HB. The BW's first costume is a Hall of Famer for most craptastic. It was right up there with Nighthawk's first get-up (a tiny bird nose NEVER works, PEOPLE!!) although it was funny when the Hulk called him "Bird-nose." See? Even the Hulk's dim mind could pick up on the gross and willful fashion violation, even if it was subliminal.
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Post by humanbelly on Mar 1, 2010 21:09:06 GMT -5
I'm with you, HB. The BW's first costume is a Hall of Famer for most craptastic. It was right up there with Nighthawk's first get-up (a tiny bird nose NEVER works, PEOPLE!!) although it was funny when the Hulk called him "Bird-nose." See? Even the Hulk's dim mind could pick up on the gross and willful fashion violation, even if it was subliminal. Heh heh heh-- Kyle's first costume was unfortunate, wasn't it? The signature piece, of course, being the orange hawk-beak on the mask, covering his own nose. But the light-blue bodysuit w/ the black bird graphic? The cardboard-brown cape with the ragged fringe? The black head mask with the pointy "brow feathers" (or whatever they were?)?. As originally conceived, he was supposed to be an alti-verse Batman figure--- but, geeze, this looked more like a clown outfit. I really liked the replacement outfit a lot, though, I must confess. Poor ol' Kyle Richmond. Is he one of Marvel's casualties that has actually remained dead for all these years? Hardly seems fair. Granted, there wasn't anything original about him at all, but I always liked him a lot. I always viewed him as sort of a gifted semi-pro football player who was plumb dedicated to the game, but just didn't quite have the natural gifts to truly succeed at it. "Bird Nose". "Fish Man". "Sword Girl". "Magician" (which replaced "Dumb Magician"). And I know there are others. These descriptive names were such a delightfully subtle-yet-comic way of capturing the Hulk's nature. In his simpler mind, the noun was much more direct, honest, and meaningful than the name. I'd forgotten about that little endearing aspect of the Defenders. Golly, I enjoyed that book-- though it fell apart pretty rapidly in its middle-to-late run. HB |
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Post by spiderwasp on Mar 1, 2010 23:26:19 GMT -5
Poor ol' Kyle Richmond. Is he one of Marvel's casualties that has actually remained dead for all these years? Hardly seems fair. Granted, there wasn't anything original about him at all, but I always liked him a lot. I always viewed him as sort of a gifted semi-pro football player who was plumb dedicated to the game, but just didn't quite have the natural gifts to truly succeed at it. uhmm, HB, you've lost me here. Kyle came back about 10 years or so ago and was a part of the Defenders relaunch, Cap's team during Civil War (Until he defected), and headed up the "Last Defenders" team. Unless I got confused and missed some details along the way, which does sometimes happen. The Kyle Richmond of the Squadrine Supreme is still dead though. I guess it's hard to recover from a rotted heart. |
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Post by humanbelly on Mar 2, 2010 9:34:40 GMT -5
Poor ol' Kyle Richmond. Is he one of Marvel's casualties that has actually remained dead for all these years? Hardly seems fair. Granted, there wasn't anything original about him at all, but I always liked him a lot. I always viewed him as sort of a gifted semi-pro football player who was plumb dedicated to the game, but just didn't quite have the natural gifts to truly succeed at it. uhmm, HB, you've lost me here. Kyle came back about 10 years or so ago and was a part of the Defenders relaunch, Cap's team during Civil War (Until he defected), and headed up the "Last Defenders" team. Unless I got confused and missed some details along the way, which does sometimes happen. The Kyle Richmond of the Squadrine Supreme is still dead though. I guess it's hard to recover from a rotted heart. Oh wow, SW! You have comforted my heart. I had no clue about any of those appearances. (Let's see-- 10 years ago was a "lost" period thanks to a particularly time-consuming baby daughter; never picked up any of Civil War-- although did he pop up in MA or NA at all?; and likewise didn't catch Last Defenders.) Really glad to hear he's been alive and kicking. The unfortunate defection probably isn't out of character from my memory of Kyle. If I recall, he tended to be driven by a need to make things operate smoothly and well. I think that's why being the leader of the Defenders was such an ironic role for him. Almost by definition, it was a rather loose, spontaneous group, in spite of his best efforts to tame it. But Tony's vision of the Superhero's proper place in society was very structured and organized, and I can see that it would ultimately win Kyle over. (I make these pronouncements, of course, with no knowledge of any of the specifics. A dangerous gamble, true. . . ) Thanks for the update, though, partner-! HB |
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Post by sharkar on Mar 3, 2010 19:04:50 GMT -5
I have to say, though, that the jumpsuit costume was a VAST improvement over the fishnet stockings, pointy mask, and girly half-cape of her formative years. This is something a spy would wear?? Hey, and a world-famous spy at that! Does anyone recall newspaper headlines being depicted, saying things like BLACK WIDOW TRAITOR and FAMOUS SPY DEFECTS and such things in some earlier Kooky Quartet issues? I mean, isn't one of the first rules of spy-hood that you maintain, like, a low profile? Sort of blend in? Avoid the limelight? If an active spy is "famous" doesn't it sort of, you know, compromise their effectiveness? (It's Stan again, god bless him. No such thing as mundane or run-of-the-mill. Can't just be a spy-- have to be a super-duper, sugar-coated, vitamin-enhanced WORLD FAMOUS spy!) I'm with you, HB. The BW's first costume is a Hall of Famer for most craptastic. I'm in the minority here, but I preferred her fishnetted costume, Black Canary knock-off that it was. But I must concede that BW's black bodysuit (which, as its creator Romita Sr. has said, was based on the Golden Age character Miss Fury) has withstood the test of time and, with very little modification over the years, has certainly become BW's trademark look. BTW, in her earliest appearances (pre-Avengers) Natasha was more of a typical spy and she didn't wear a superhero/supervillain costume. She appeared in several Suspense issues as an Iron Man antagonist sans fishnets, mask, cape, etc. Here's how she first appeared. It's been reported that Heck based Natasha--facially, anyway--on Sophia Loren (as Sophia looked in the early 1960s).  It was only in Natasha's final Silver Age Suspense appearance (ToS #64) that she was given a functional costume--complete with grappling hook, suction boots--by her evil superiors. This is when she became more of a typical "supervillain" instead of a Mata Hari type. And I love this bit of (Stan) dialogue when she tries to flatter Hawkeye by telling him she designed her new mask to resemble his. ;D  |
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Post by humanbelly on Mar 4, 2010 10:04:01 GMT -5
I have to say, though, that the jumpsuit costume was a VAST improvement over the fishnet stockings, pointy mask, and girly half-cape of her formative years. This is something a spy would wear?? Hey, and a world-famous spy at that! Does anyone recall newspaper headlines being depicted, saying things like BLACK WIDOW TRAITOR and FAMOUS SPY DEFECTS and such things in some earlier Kooky Quartet issues? I mean, isn't one of the first rules of spy-hood that you maintain, like, a low profile? Sort of blend in? Avoid the limelight? If an active spy is "famous" doesn't it sort of, you know, compromise their effectiveness? (It's Stan again, god bless him. No such thing as mundane or run-of-the-mill. Can't just be a spy-- have to be a super-duper, sugar-coated, vitamin-enhanced WORLD FAMOUS spy!) I'm with you, HB. The BW's first costume is a Hall of Famer for most craptastic. I'm in the minority here, but I preferred her fishnetted costume, Black Canary knock-off that it was. But I must concede that BW's black bodysuit (which, as its creator Romita Sr. has said, was based on the Golden Age character Miss Fury) has withstood the test of time and, with very little modification over the years, has certainly become BW's trademark look. BTW, in her earliest appearances (pre-Avengers) Natasha was more of a typical spy and she didn't wear a superhero/supervillain costume. She appeared in several Suspense issues as an Iron Man antagonist sans fishnets, mask, cape, etc. Here's how she first appeared. It's been reported that Heck based Natasha--facially, anyway--on Sophia Loren (as Sophia looked in the early 1960s). It was only in Natasha's final Silver Age Suspense appearance (ToS #64) that she was given a functional costume--complete with grappling hook, suction boots--by her evil superiors. This is when she became more of a typical "supervillain" instead of a Mata Hari type. And I love this bit of (Stan) dialogue when she tries to flatter Hawkeye by telling him she designed her new mask to resemble his. ;D Ha! I'm surprised that the htmlcomics site doesn't have Tales of Suspense catalogued at all-- 'cause I'd love to read the preceding part of that conversation! One would assume it consists of Natasha giving a step-by-step explanation of her costume design. And, really, knowing Clint, his inner monologue at that moment was FAR more likely revolving around how to get her OUT of the blamed thing-- Or even-- NATASHA: . . . and I vas tryink to decide betveen a satin linink for the cape, or vhether to make it rewersible, and. . . CLINT: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. NATASHA: . . . mustn't use the low-grade fish-net, as it ALVAYS is the FIRST think to go durink a melee, and. . . CLINT: Right. Right. Honey, if you could take a step back, I'm gonna have a try at shooting this blast arrow through my own head. You just keep talking. . . HB |
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Post by sharkar on Mar 4, 2010 20:49:04 GMT -5
LOL! Dahlink, zat is vahnduhful ;D--exalt to you, comrade. Ha! I'm surprised that the htmlcomics site doesn't have Tales of Suspense catalogued at all-- 'cause I'd love to read the preceding part of that conversation! It's catalogued under Iron Man (Tales of Suspense). Here's the link to the issue in question (go to page 5). What I found so funny about this sequence (though it's far less funny than your scenario, HB) was that her nefarious superiors designed her new costume and equipped her with suction boots and wrist shooters (with a grappling line, and not with a weapon like the electric Widow's Bite--this came later when she appeared in the Avengers comic)--as if these "weapons" would help her in a battle against someone like Iron Man! www.htmlcomics.com/Book/html.asp?Series_Name=Iron%20Man%20(Tales%20of%20Suspense)&Book_No=064&Page_Number=3&Alpha=|&Lookup=iron%20man |
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Post by humanbelly on Mar 6, 2010 6:00:09 GMT -5
LOL! Dahlink, zat is vahnduhful ;D--exalt to you, comrade. Ha! I'm surprised that the htmlcomics site doesn't have Tales of Suspense catalogued at all-- 'cause I'd love to read the preceding part of that conversation! It's catalogued under Iron Man (Tales of Suspense). Here's the link to the issue in question (go to page 5). What I found so funny about this sequence (though it's far less funny than your scenario, HB) was that her nefarious superiors designed her new costume and equipped her with suction boots and wrist shooters (with a grappling line, and not with a weapon like the electric Widow's Bite--this came later when she appeared in the Avengers comic)--as if these "weapons" would help her in a battle against someone like Iron Man! www.htmlcomics.com/Book/html.asp?Series_Name=Iron%20Man%20(Tales%20of%20Suspense)&Book_No=064&Page_Number=3&Alpha=|&Lookup=iron%20manAah-- yes, because Iron Man's famous achilles' heel is women who can walk upside down and that have a nylon grapple line they can't accidentally let go of-! Yep, that'll do him in. . . Thanks for steering me to the right (and in retrospect, rather obvious) bookshelf, there. Now, here's something I'm curious about-- for basically one panel, we are introduced to Natasha's poor, frightened, freedom-loving folks. Being held as insurance towards her cooperation with the state, as it were. What the heck happened with them? Did they ever pop up again? I mean, the threat to them was her only motivating factor to go along with this KGB plot at this point. (I figure, since you do have a fondness for BW, and are a veritable font of deep-background information, you probably already have an inkling. . . eh?. . . eh?) HB |
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Post by sharkar on Mar 8, 2010 22:10:30 GMT -5
Now, here's something I'm curious about-- for basically one panel, we are introduced to Natasha's poor, frightened, freedom-loving folks. Being held as insurance towards her cooperation with the state, as it were. What the heck happened with them? Did they ever pop up again? I mean, the threat to them was her only motivating factor to go along with this KGB plot at this point. I don't believe they ever popped up like this again (as the adult Natasha's parents), because in the years since it's been established that she was orphanned at a young age (and raised, for the most part, by Ivan). So in light of the retcon, 'Tasha's mention of them here (in Suspense #64) can be probably be chalked up to her trying to gain sympathy points from Hawkeye |
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Post by humanbelly on Mar 9, 2010 21:33:34 GMT -5
Now, here's something I'm curious about-- for basically one panel, we are introduced to Natasha's poor, frightened, freedom-loving folks. Being held as insurance towards her cooperation with the state, as it were. What the heck happened with them? Did they ever pop up again? I mean, the threat to them was her only motivating factor to go along with this KGB plot at this point. I don't believe they ever popped up like this again (as the adult Natasha's parents), because in the years since it's been established that she was orphanned at a young age (and raised, for the most part, by Ivan). So in light of the retcon, 'Tasha's mention of them here (in Suspense #64) can be probably be chalked up to her trying to gain sympathy points from Hawkeye Really, I kind of like the inadvertent retcon better. The idea that Natasha's still willing to lie to someone she believes she sincerely loves in order to manipulate him speaks volumes about the fact that she was still ambiguously straddling the ol' moral fence. Her heart was in the right place-- but she was still far too comfortable with the underhanded practices that she'd been trained to. Far more believable than the overly-earnest picture she was otherwise presenting. HB |
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Post by bobc on Apr 2, 2010 10:36:46 GMT -5
Oh God. I just bought an Essential Marvel Team-up edition where the Black Widow joins Spiderman in fighting the Silver Samari--and Natasha tells SS "I'm nobody's lover--nobody's SLAVE!!!"
Good lord. No wonder she's perennially single. Her attitude really sucked
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). But BW says she will join the Avengers--because (as she thinks) it will give her time to assess their relationship.