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Post by humanbelly on Aug 16, 2009 5:43:23 GMT -5
Yep, there he was. And I daresay the artwork looked great! You know, he must be a very, very old fellow by now, but- unless he's farming out his work to students or apprentices (as happens in the comic strip world, sometimes)- it doesn't look to me like his abilities have particularly diminished. It's kind of like how every time John Severin (who must be, what, 155 years old?) makes a rare appearance, his work looks exactly the same as it always has.
The issue itself? Oh, it's okay. While it's been quite fun, I feel like the book's not finding a steady course. And having Banner going into the sunset "cured" of being the Hulk for the bajillionth time just has us 40-year-plus fans rolling our eyes and groaning audibly. I'm assuming the writer is doing this so he can explore his own creations (Red Hulk & Rick Hulk) further, in this well-established, "writer can commit whatever crimes he wants to the character" environment. But neither of those creations has the staying power of the simple, straightforward original, IMO. How many times has this proved to be successful in the past? Let's see. . . Ben Reilly becomes Spiderman? No. Eric Masterson becomes Thor? Nope. Rhodey takes over the Iron Man armor? Not really. USAgent (what's his name-- John Walker?) becomes Cap? Yeesh, no. Bucky as the "new" Cap is still in process, and I guess that's being treated in the company as a wild success, sooooo that me be the precedent that's being pointed to.
But the Green Hulk ALWAYS comes back. So this is simply a matter of taking a breath and being patient.
Could have lived w/out the forced, pointless, completely unnecessary "Dark Reign" angle. Anything to create an event tie-in. . .
HB
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Post by scottharris on Aug 16, 2009 13:22:38 GMT -5
Just to clarify, the current series is using Rick Jones as the Hulk?
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Post by humanbelly on Aug 16, 2009 18:29:11 GMT -5
Just to clarify, the current series is using Rick Jones as the Hulk? More like using him as "a" Hulk. Rick has become this blue-ish, armored Hulk-like creature w/ some additional abilities. I don't know when this happened actually. I'm assuming it must have been somewhere in the World War Hulk multiple crossovers that I couldn't justify the expense of. Or maybe I just missed something in the regular series somehow. Or maybe it's a Civil War thing? Anyhoo, the main antagonist at this point is the Red Hulk- or "Rulk"- who seems to be gaining Hood status over in this neck of the woods. I believe he's a transformed SHIELD agent (Jasper Sitwell? Clay Quartermain?). I think Gen. Ross is responsible for the creation of both of these off-shoots. How many times does the Hulk have to be cast out as the driving character in his own book?? Makes me crazy. . . HB |
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Post by scottharris on Aug 16, 2009 19:47:27 GMT -5
Huh. Well, as I think you know, I can't stand the Hulk, and this is actually part of the reason why. I don't actually mind him as a character, I just think he works best as a villain or occasional adversary -- popping up in other people's books from time to time like he did in the Silver Age between the end of his first series and when he started again in TTA. He's a great foil for other characters but there's just not a lot to explore with him, which is seen by the fact that his own series rarely has anything to do with him. Instead it's just one weird gimmick after another. Anyway, I asked because Rick has turned into Hulk before. I'm getting ready to write some stuff about ROM over on my blog and it's probably not well known, but Rick Jones, Professional Sidekick, was actually a sidekick to Rom for a brief period as well. In Rom #72, during Secret Wars II, the Beyonder shows up and grants wishes to the supporting cast of the series, including Rick Jones, who becomes, well, the Hulk -- only he's still got his own mind, so he becomes a superhero:  At the end, he gives up his powers. Too bad, because for one issue, he was officially the Best Hulk Ever. |
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Post by humanbelly on Aug 22, 2009 20:24:10 GMT -5
Ha! Well Scott, I am more than ready to concede that we will have to honorably agree to disagree about the Hulk! He has truly been my favorite comic book character since 1968, I kid you not. Even through many bad times (and boy, there's been many, as you correctly pointed out-), he's always had a special niche in my heart.
Hey, your blog entry about issue #108 was absolutely delightful, and just about 95% right on the money. I wrote a (typically) long response, and then discovered that I had no idea how to post it. Completely inept at blog-related correspondence, it would appear. But the gist? I think that old issue signified the end of the troublesome transition from half-issue titles (Suspense, Astonish, Strange Tales) to full-length books. And it seems painfully obvious that the Hulk, in particular, was being more or less written on-the-fly by Stan as he struggled to stay on top of what had to be a massively-increased workload. BUT--someone must have clued him in, because the very next issue (#109, with Kazar) marked the point where the title really began a major turnaround. The run from #109 to #123 is, in fact, one that is more beloved to me than any other. Herb Trimpe stepped up and became a very innovative and delightful visual storyteller, and Stan suddenly became interested in doing legitimate story-telling, rather than stringing cliched plot elements together and calling it writing. I've waxed on at length about this run in another thread, so I won't belabor it too much here.
Historically, it seems to me that there's little middle-ground for the writers when they take on this book. They either have an instinct for the character- as Stan finally did, and Roy after that, and Gerry Conway and Dennis O'Neil a bit, and then DEFINITELY Len Wein for many years- or they just don't "get" him, and can't find a hook at all. Bill Mantlo and Roger Stern, both solid writers, come immediately to mind. Their long runs on this book were-- well-- awful, IMO. And I think that's where a lot folks' memory of not liking the Hulk stems from. Peter David then painstakingly re-thought the nature of the character while striving mightily to maintain his continuity, and breathed tremendous new life into the book that, I think, is still under-appreciated.
And then he was 86-ed to accommodate Heroes Reborn, and that was the last time the book had a solid, long-term writer that seemed to be interested in actually writing about the Hulk. Who was that "hot" writer? Bruce Jones? If you ever want to see a prelude to Civil War-like stewardship-- illustrating the consequences of letting a writer do whatever he flippin' wants to a character w/out regard to history, character, or continuity-- take a look at his painfully long run on the book. . . .
Ohhhh, I'm gettin' too sleepy, and am starting to rant.
So, there's my defense, Scott--- but I shan't try to get you to like a book that doesn't work for you. Sheesh-- someone may then try to get me to like the Punisher, or Dark Avengers or something. . .
HB
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Post by sharkar on Aug 24, 2009 12:30:05 GMT -5
I think that old issue signified the end of the troublesome transition from half-issue titles (Suspense, Astonish, Strange Tales) to full-length books. And it seems painfully obvious that the Hulk, in particular, was being more or less written on-the-fly by Stan as he struggled to stay on top of what had to be a massively-increased workload. I wouldn't lay the blame on Stan writing the Hulk "on the fly"; remember, when Tales to Astonish became the Hulk's solo comic (as of #102), starting with that very issue (#102) and continuing for several months, the Hulk's writing was handled by Gary Friedrich, Roy Thomas, Archie Goodwin, even Bill Everett-- not Stan. (Stan had written the Hulk's first volume, the Hulk's TtA stories, and the two Hulk-Namor issues immediately preceding Hulk #102. No doubt the use of these various writers on the Hulk starting with #102 gave Stan some breathing room so he could address the greatly-increased editorial/publishing workload brought about the expansion...for a while, anyway--see below...) BUT--someone must have clued him in, because the very next issue (#109, with Kazar) marked the point where the title really began a major turnaround. The run from #109 to #123 is, in fact, one that is more beloved to me than any other. Yep, Stan the editor stepped in and instituted a change in writers--namely, he took over the writing himself, starting with Hulk #108--which is why #108's credits proclaim "Written by our leader, Smilin' STAN LEE who misses his green-skinned gargoyle!" Stan continued as the Hulk's writer through #119 (plus Hulk Special/Annual #2). Stan then co-scripted #120 with Roy--after which it appears Stan felt comfortable handing over the writing chores to Roy (Roy became the scripter with #121). |
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Post by humanbelly on Aug 24, 2009 14:44:36 GMT -5
I think that old issue signified the end of the troublesome transition from half-issue titles (Suspense, Astonish, Strange Tales) to full-length books. And it seems painfully obvious that the Hulk, in particular, was being more or less written on-the-fly by Stan as he struggled to stay on top of what had to be a massively-increased workload. I wouldn't lay the blame on Stan writing the Hulk "on the fly"; remember, when Tales to Astonish became the Hulk's solo comic (as of #102), starting with that very issue (#102) and continuing for several months, the Hulk's writing was handled by Gary Friedrich, Roy Thomas, Archie Goodwin, even Bill Everett-- not Stan. (Stan had written the Hulk's first volume, the Hulk's TtA stories, and the two Hulk-Namor issues immediately preceding Hulk #102. No doubt the use of these various writers on the Hulk starting with #102 gave Stan some breathing room so he could address the greatly-increased editorial/publishing workload brought about the expansion...for a while, anyway--see below...) BUT--someone must have clued him in, because the very next issue (#109, with Kazar) marked the point where the title really began a major turnaround. The run from #109 to #123 is, in fact, one that is more beloved to me than any other. Yep, Stan the editor stepped in and instituted a change in writers--namely, he took over the writing himself, starting with Hulk #108--which is why #108's credits proclaim "Written by our leader, Smilin' STAN LEE who misses his green-skinned gargoyle!" Stan continued as the Hulk's writer through #119 (plus Hulk Special/Annual #2). Stan then co-scripted #120 with Roy--after which it appears Stan felt comfortable handing over the writing chores to Roy (Roy became the scripter with #121). Ah- thanks, Shar. Your clarification comes as a tremendous relief, in fact! I'd completely forgotten about Stan's brief hiatus, there, which I guess is what still ultimately led to the book having that small bad stretch. It's certainly reassuring that Stan's editorial eye was solid and true at that point, and could see the need to rescue a ship what was takin' on water. (And now I do remember that "misses his green-skinned gargoyle" blurb. Heh.) Am I remembering correctly that Archie Goodwin also came back to the title a couple of years down the road? I seem to recall interesting stories, but a rather short tenure. . . Hey, THERE'S #200! How appropriate that I'm rattling on about the Hulk for the occasion. . . HB |
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Post by defdave on Sept 29, 2009 15:22:41 GMT -5
Yep, there he was. And I daresay the artwork looked great! You know, he must be a very, very old fellow by now, but- unless he's farming out his work to students or apprentices (as happens in the comic strip world, sometimes)- it doesn't look to me like his abilities have particularly diminished. It's kind of like how every time John Severin (who must be, what, 155 years old?) makes a rare appearance, his work looks exactly the same as it always has. The issue itself? Oh, it's okay. While it's been quite fun, I feel like the book's not finding a steady course. And having Banner going into the sunset "cured" of being the Hulk for the bajillionth time just has us 40-year-plus fans rolling our eyes and groaning audibly. I'm assuming the writer is doing this so he can explore his own creations (Red Hulk & Rick Hulk) further, in this well-established, "writer can commit whatever crimes he wants to the character" environment. But neither of those creations has the staying power of the simple, straightforward original, IMO. How many times has this proved to be successful in the past? Let's see. . . Ben Reilly becomes Spiderman? No. Eric Masterson becomes Thor? Nope. Rhodey takes over the Iron Man armor? Not really. USAgent (what's his name-- John Walker?) becomes Cap? Yeesh, no. Bucky as the "new" Cap is still in process, and I guess that's being treated in the company as a wild success, sooooo that me be the precedent that's being pointed to. But the Green Hulk ALWAYS comes back. So this is simply a matter of taking a breath and being patient. Could have lived w/out the forced, pointless, completely unnecessary "Dark Reign" angle. Anything to create an event tie-in. . . HB Tom Palmer is in his late 60s. 67 or 68. He came on the scene at Marvel in the late 1960s, just missing any opportunity to work with Jack Kirby or John Romita, Sr. Some of his earliest work can be found on the Avengers late in the Roy Thomas era. IIRC, he worked on some Kree/Skrull War issues. He's famous for not only his 11 or 12 year run on Avengers in the 80s and 90s, but for his work with Gene Colan on Tomb of Dracula in the 70s. In fact, he was the inker for the very first appearance of Blade. The most memorable work he's done since the end of Avengers Vol. 1 has been as the inker for John Byrne's X-Men the Hidden Years as well as the first few issues of Bruce Jones' Hulk run. He is an exceptionally nice guy and holds a sterling reputation throughout the industry. He has been very busy this year picking up work on Spider-Man, Iron Fist and Kick-Ass and remains very humble and grateful for the work. In addition to being a comic book inker (and occasional colorist- check those Harras-era credit boxes!), he is also an extremely talented painter working in oils and mixed media. You can find a few of these online if you search for them. Remember he fully painted the covers to AVENGERS 255 and 402. |
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Post by thunderstrike78 on Oct 1, 2009 12:22:23 GMT -5
Argh! I wrote up a whole, lengthy reply about characters that have been successful replacements and other characters who have not, and about how changes need to be made to the Hulk but that Jeph Loeb may not be the best one to do it and a bright red Hulk looks ridiculous . . . but I his "post" and got an error. The computer ate my entire post.
Ugh.
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Post by bobc on Oct 23, 2009 9:20:41 GMT -5
Tom Palmer is one of my idols. His work with Big John B on the Avengers in the late 60's is unsurpassed, IMO. I wouldn't probably be a comic fan today if not for those two. Tom''s inking made the "mysterious" Avengers (Vision, Black Panther, Black Knight) look cool and mysterious (not to be redundant) and he made the female Avengers look more beautiful than ever--particularly the Scarlet Witch. I am happy he is still working.
Scott I agree with you about the Hulk--just personal opinion. I always liked him best when he was just wandering around, getting into trouble. I could never really get into his slo book for some reason. I bought one of the Hulk Essential Editions, and liked it okay, but I just prefer team books.
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Post by humanbelly on Oct 27, 2009 9:12:26 GMT -5
Tom Palmer is one of my idols. His work with Big John B on the Avengers in the late 60's is unsurpassed, IMO. I wouldn't probably be a comic fan today if not for those two. Tom''s inking made the "mysterious" Avengers (Vision, Black Panther, Black Knight) look cool and mysterious (not to be redundant) and he made the female Avengers look more beautiful than ever--particularly the Scarlet Witch. I am happy he is still working. Scott I agree with you about the Hulk--just personal opinion. I always liked him best when he was just wandering around, getting into trouble. I could never really get into his slo book for some reason. I bought one of the Hulk Essential Editions, and liked it okay, but I just prefer team books. OH! OOOOOHHHHHH! You guys. . . you guys are GANGIN' UP on my pal, ol' Greenskin! MAN! SHAME on you! SHAME, SHAME! Hey, I think I may have an insight into why the Hulk is difficult as a solo character. For the bulk of his existence, he hasn't been a terribly complex individual, and certainly not introspective (unlike pretty much every other hero in the Marvel Universe). Whereas w/ Spidey or DD or Luke Cage you could fill entire pages w/ them "thinking" and working something through in their heads while going about their business, that option was never as readily available for the Hulk. His depths are necessarily revealed through his actions and interactions w/ others, not through his thoughts or inner monologues. While I'm sure many would consider the piece sappy, "Heaven Is a Very Small Place" in Hulk #147 does handle this particularly well, and reveals the depths of the Hulk's loneliness that he probably isn't even aware of himself. But yeah, I always liked him in the Defenders, too. Although his level of power was always played 'WAY down to keep him more compatible w/ his companions. (You guys are just baiting me, aren't you? 'Zat what's goin' here? "Hey, I'll make a comment about the Hulk-- watch HB come in swingin'! Ha!") Okay, back to the grind-- HB |
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Post by scottharris on Oct 27, 2009 11:38:36 GMT -5
HB, I met Herb Trimpe on Saturday at the comic show here and I think you would have very much enjoyed talking to him. A friend of mine (who doesn't know a single thing about comic books) asked him about creating Wolverine and he went into a long monologue about how Wolverine is lame and The Hulk is a real character, with pathos and humanity, how he's a victim more than a hero or villain, etc. etc. It was very interesting.
Of course, I only partially agreed with him (the part about Wolverine being lame -- no, I mean, I just don't think the character can sustain nearly 50 years of introspection which is why so many writers have just done their own, totally unrelated takes on Hulk) but it was still a very interesting conversation.
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Post by humanbelly on Oct 28, 2009 8:24:33 GMT -5
Man, you're right, Scott. It would have blown me away to be able to chat w/ Herb Trimpe for awhile. Were the fans treating him well? I mean, sadly, the dominant memories of him for anyone younger than me would likely have been of his late-career work, when he'd definitely lost his edge. Possibly bittersweet for him that they'd be asking about his being the co-creator of Wolverine, as opposed to the nearly 10 years he spent penciling the Hulk. And yes, clearly his belief in the Hulk's character is very much in line w/ my own take. That's very heartening to hear, I must say.
Sharkar linked us, awhile back, to a long article he had written (New York Times?) about his (classless) ouster from Marvel, and his struggles (ultimately successful) to re-educate & re-invent himself as an art teacher, VERY late in life. It's a fascinating read, especially for those familiar w/ his career, because it shows a tremendous amount of courage and stubborn self-confidence timbered w/ a subtle lack of self-enlightenment. Very much like a boxer or athlete unknowingly past his prime, he simply doesn't- or didn't- accept that his talents had seriously waned. But I think that non-acceptance may be what powered him ahead to apply himself to other venues.
Naturally, that would be kind of hard to bring up in an informal convention setting. . .
But, boy, there are so many great visual sequences from the late 60's and the 70's that I would LOVED to have heard him expand on-!
HB
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Post by scottharris on Oct 28, 2009 9:07:19 GMT -5
Actually, he brought up the fired from Marvel thing himself. I forget how it came up, but he started to go off about it and seemed to decide not to bother, so he instead just talked about the industry as a whole.
The fans seemed to be treating him well. I think the ones who remember him now all remember his older stuff; that bad stuff in the mid-90's is long ago enough now that new fans don't know it and older fans remember his stuff before that era. He said that he went into teaching for "a couple years" but that he then started getting a lot of comission work, so I get the impression that he's making enough money from conventions and commissions that he he doing that more or less full time. Which is cool.
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Post by sharkar on Oct 29, 2009 18:04:47 GMT -5
... While I'm sure many would consider the piece sappy, "Heaven Is a Very Small Place" in Hulk #147 does handle this particularly well, and reveals the depths of the Hulk's loneliness that he probably isn't even aware of himself. HB I agree; at its core, the Hulk's story (IMO) is about the basic human need to escape loneliness...and to find love, respect and acceptance. This was superbly depicted in the "Hulk: Heart of Atom" book, which collected stories featuring the Hulk and his interactions with (among others) Jarella and the Defenders...a great collection of stories, heartbreaking and hopeful. |
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Post by sharkar on Oct 29, 2009 18:33:09 GMT -5
Tom Palmer is one of my idols. His work with Big John B on the Avengers in the late 60's is unsurpassed, IMO. I wouldn't probably be a comic fan today if not for those two. Tom''s inking made the "mysterious" Avengers (Vision, Black Panther, Black Knight) look cool and mysterious (not to be redundant)... "Mysterious"--that's a very good way of putting it; Palmer's embellishments and his liberal use of Zip-A-Tone (screens to achieve effects) did add a lot of mystery and darkness to those characters...and also to others, where (IMO) it was less suitable. Everyone looked so macabre and craggy! It worked when Palmer inked Neal Adams on the X-Men--Adams' style lends itself to cragginess and jagged edges-- but I found it less appropriate on Buscema and the Avengers. I think that's why, for me, George Klein remains the best inker on Big John (see their short but memorable collaboration, #55-#62, except for #60, the YJ-Wasp wedding issue). True, Klein didn't add the darkness (or depth) that Palmer did; GK just embraced Buscema's classicism, and he did it beautifully--no fuss. (BTW, Big John didn't like Klein's inks on his work; I guess it was too "clean" and not jagged enough. JB liked Palmer's work--along with a very few other inkers--as we've noted before.) Eventually, though, I learned to appreciate--and love--the Buscema-Palmer team during that time. (I can't say the same for their later pairing on the Avengers years later, when JB was just doing breakdowns and Palmer was doing the bulk of the finished art...) ...and he made the female Avengers look more beautiful than ever--particularly the Scarlet Witch. I agree. Palmer (inking JB) certainly made Wanda's face sultrier--two standout panels of her face that have always impressed me were in #76, when she innocently believes Arkon will spare the earth; and in #84, when she turns Arkon down...she looks so haughty! |
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