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Post by scottharris on Jul 17, 2009 1:47:03 GMT -5
In this question you have your answer -- if you can't think of anything better, you've done a bloody poor job in writing the story. Well, fair enough. He could have set this up differently and not boxed himself into a corner. If the setup was different, then he could have changed things up when it became apparent that Lost and Batman were going in similar directions. I have to say, I didn't mind the first issue much anyway. I thought the time travel thing was really confusing, but otherwise I enjoyed the issue just fine. Part of me feels that as long as they bring Steve back I don't much care how it's done. And yes, time travel isn't the greatest way to bring someone back, but as far as time travel stories go the way Brubaker is doing it just doesn't bother me as much as some other time travel options. If this were something like "we go back and save Cap" that wouldn't make sense because of how alternate realities work in the MU. There are better ways to do it, but there are worse ways as well. The other thing for me is that the method of bringing him back isn't the story, it's only the vehicle for telling the story. Now that he's (vaguely) established this time travel premise, there are a lot of different ways this can play out, a lot of different potential stories using this structure. I am still hoping that Brubaker has a cool story in mind to utilize this, and if so, I'll be happy enough. One example would be Kevin Smith's resurrection of Green Arrow. This was a long, drawn out resurrection where Hal Jordan, as Parallax, used his powers to create a new Ollie from scratch. Except, this was Ollie as he existed in Hal's memory, so it was Ollie circa 1975, who didn't know anything about anything he had done since. Then Demon got involved if I am remembering correctly and sent this new Ollie into the afterworld where he met with the real Ollie and the two merged, so that the real Ollie took over the new Ollie body Hal had made. Voila -- Ollie was back form the dead, in just 900 easy steps. Now that's a story that was way more convoluted than it had to be. I mean, there wasn't even a body when Green Arrow died! You could have brought him back in like one page. But even though the plot device to bring him back was torturous, the resulting story was pretty cool so I liked it anyway. And I'm hoping the same will be true here. |
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Post by freedomfighter on Jul 17, 2009 12:08:27 GMT -5
resorting to time travel to undo a death -- any death -- is the lamest possible solution I'm not sure I agree with this. I do think time travel is an iffy way to bring people back, but the lamest solution? I think you are underestimating how lame some of these resurrections can get. For instance, I don't think time travel is any lamer than saying Mockingbird was a skrull. Or, for example, that Jason Todd sprung back into being because Superboy-Prime punched the walls of reality too hard or whatever the hell happened in that story. Plus, I am still holding on to the hope that Cap: Reborn ties in to 1602, which featured a time displaced Cap who had been shot in the head and killed during a government crackdown on superheroes. If this does tie into 1602 it will go instantly from iffy concept to the greatest thing ever written. A few problems: 1)The perception that he is ripping off "Lost," which Ed Brubaker both denies and partly admits to in referring to Sharon as "the constant." Mr. Brubaker may have intended to pay "homage" to Slaughterhouse 5, but I think he failed to consider that by and large the comic book fanbase is not so literate. 2)The perception that Ed Brubaker is ripping off Quantum Leap. 3)The perception that events in Cap are paralleling events in Batman to an uncomfortable degree. 4)Most problematic for me, the explanation of the "time gun" and Steve's death is confusing and nonsensical. Well, you are right that these are problems because of reader perception, but 1 2 and 3 are all problems of perception and not reality in my opinion. Lost was explicitly referencing the same source material in Slaughterhouse 5 as Brubaker, so it's no wonder they are so similar; and Quantum Leap is basically the same thing. Obviously, if readers aren't familiar with these stories they will be comparing Cap to what they are familiar with, which is a real problem if it causes them to dislike the Cap story but is not a real problem in terms of the actual story itself, if you know what I mean. It's not Brubaker's fault that people haven't read Vonnegut. The similarities between Cap and Batman (and to extent, Lost as well) are also out of Brubaker's hands. He has been setting up this story for over two years, putting hints and clues all along. It's clear that he intended for this story from the beginning (although he originally was only planning to have Cap stay dead for a few months and expanded it when he came up with the Bucky-as-Cap arc). The issue where the word "constant" first shows up came out before season 5 of Lost (though the term popped up at the end of Season 4 in a couple episodes). And I have no idea how long Batman was planning their thing, but it's just a case of parallel development. It happens all the time. Now, again, I agree that for a lot of readers, they don't know this stuff so they just assume Brubaker is ripping things off, but he's not; he just unintentionally got caught up in a larger zeitgeist of time travel stories in pop culture. And the cultural context doesn't materially change the story on the page, it just affects how some readers react to it. Having said that, #4 on your list -- that the story is confusing and nonsensical -- that I have to agree with. I've read Slaughterhouse 5 and I've read pretty much every issue of Captain America (I did miss a few earlier this decade and some GA issues of course) and I've read literally hundreds of time travel science fiction stories, and I have to say, I still didn't understand what the heck Arnim Zola was saying about his time gun and being frozen at the moment of his detah or... whatever was going on... I understand the consequence just fine with the unstuck in time thing, but the whole time gun/freezing/Doom's time machine thing... really confusing and weird. I'm not sure how else Brubaker could have done it. Since he planned on this story all along, he set up the death with this return in mind, so the manner of his death and the aftermath rule out some possibilities in terms of having him return. But even though the basic concept is something I don't necessarily have an issue with, the way it is playing out is really hard to follow. The autopsy thing isn't an issue with me since Skull has Cap clones (well, he has them when it's convenient for the story and then loses them when it's not) and could have just slipped a dead clone into the mix for the autopsy. I guess a much simpler way would have just been for Cap to get shot (but not killed), replaced by a dead clone and kept in suspended animation by Skull, frozen perpetually on the brink of death but never quite dying. It's close enough to the actual story but much easier to understand. Still, I'm not going to give up. Even though I was aghast when they brought Bucky back, I've more than come around, as I think Brubaker's run on Cap is the best run in the history of the title. For me, Bru gets a pass, because I have confidence (or hope, at least) that he's going to pull this story together. There's still a lot left to tell. After all, he hasn't gone back to 1602 yet. Hi Scott I know you've posted replies since this one, but since I'm taking a different tack I thought I should go with your original points. first off, my big problem, why kill cap in the first place? it's really the least interesting story to tell, unless it's going to be permanent. but if you know you're going to bring him back, super dull. pointless. second, time travel stories can be great, they can be good, but so far I'm not seeing any reason why this one exists. the skull wanted to do something terrible to Cap by trapping him in time or some such thing? We do realize that the Skull has had the cosmic cube and couldn't beat Cap, what makes old Johann Schmidt (anyone else ever notice that translates pretty much into Joe Smith, a super ordinary name...) think this time gun or whatever (funny how no one quite knows how to explain what happened in this sequence, which is a hallmark of a poorly told story) would be any different? In fact even if worked, so what? Cap is trapped in time like a fly in amber? Won't be the first time. It just doesn't speak to their hatred for each other. Cap is dislodged in time and bounces around? Again I fail to see the power of this plan. It won't break Cap at all. He'll find a way. that's what he does. No if the Skull truly knows Cap, he would attack him at his heart. Kill Bucky, kill Sharon Carter, go back in time and be responsible for killing his parents in front of him, something that speaks to how much he hates him. There was some bad guy on a show and he said (and this sentiment has been echoed before countlessly) "I kill you the pain lasts a moment, I kill those you love, the pain lasts the rest of your life." I wouldn't do these things exactly, as I think they're overdone, but I would strike at his heart. A time loop where he watches his mother die from pneumonia for example. watching her waste away, over and over again, unable to do a thing. How horrible that would be, how heartbreaking and how worthy of a villain to truly hurt someone in such a way. That's so cruel, and it speaks to the true evil inside him that the Red Skull would get pleasure from that pain, whereas this story just doesn't. I simply don't understand the love for Brubaker. I think his plots are so-so at best, relying mostly on shock value- kill Cap, kill Nomad, bring Bucky back (still the worst decision EVER in comics--it makes Steve Rogers a cipher with little modern tragic motivation in his life and second fiddle, at best, in his own book); these are the things he's best known for. he does have a sense of history and throws in some good bits character wise. But otherwise, I do think he's too derivative. The fact that one can name several sources where the same story is being done or was done is enough for me to say, I would try to do something so different that you couldn't compare it to any one of them. |
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Post by starfoxxx on Jul 17, 2009 14:31:21 GMT -5
Yeah, I hate saying things like this (usually)  , but I would like to see Quesada get canned. and ditto what spiderwasp said: i usually agree with spiderwasp. I'm down to Mighty (for now), Initiative, FF ('til Millar's done), Marvel Zombies 4,the occasional Hulk or Cap, the last ish of OldManLogan, and Handbooks. I did pick up Cap:Reborn and Xmen:FirstClass on the recommendation of these very boards (haven't read them yet), but the forseeable future looks pretty bleak. Guess they don't want MY money anymore, oh well. oh, how could i have forgotten my current favorite title, Guardians of the Galaxy. If you only read ONE Marvel title, it should be Guardians. |
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Post by redstatecap on Jul 18, 2009 13:22:49 GMT -5
Hi Scott I know you've posted replies since this one, but since I'm taking a different tack I thought I should go with your original points. first off, my big problem, why kill cap in the first place? it's really the least interesting story to tell, unless it's going to be permanent. but if you know you're going to bring him back, super dull. pointless. Ah, someone finally touches on the great weakness of the entire "Cap is dead" story. In principle, we all acknowledge that Cap would probably not remain dead forever. Purely from a business standpoint, the character is a money-making property. At some point -- 5 years, 10 years, 15 years, pick one -- we expect that Marvel would bring him back for the bucks. In the long run it would be inevitable. However, in the short-to-medium run, it is Ed Brubaker's (and Marvel's) goal to convince us that he really, really is dead. Really. Dead is dead. Otherwise, the story loses all its dramatic effect. The problem is, how can anyone seriously expect Cap to remain dead, when the ENTIRE EFFECT of Ed Brubaker's run has been to undo one of two deaths in all of comics that HAD been honored throughout the modern era? This fact alone utterly destroys any dramatic tension relating to Cap's "death." |
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Post by humanbelly on Jul 18, 2009 15:16:47 GMT -5
Remember back in '98 or '99, when Reed got killed? And the official, staunch, unrelenting, we-mean-it-this-time-forever-amen line was that, yes, he's dead. No givebacks. This is it. And then, of course, after many, many, MANY months of it being, like the Fantastic Fifteen (IIRC, we saw a lot of Namor, Ant-Man, She-Hulk?, and a large supplementary supporting cast), and long, meandering story arcs, it turned out Reed had been trapped in the past, with no technology available to draw on. Sure, he was having enormous issues with his mental stability and all, but what a surprise! He was actually alive! NO ONE believed he would remain deceased from the moment it happened. NO ONE.
Just. . . go cold turkey on killing major characters. Just. . . DON'T DO IT!!
HB
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Post by bobc on Jul 20, 2009 11:03:41 GMT -5
well if you don't kill off major characters, what contrived plot devices will hack writers use then?
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Post by spiderwasp on Jul 20, 2009 11:28:42 GMT -5
well if you don't kill off major characters, what contrived plot devices will hack writers use then? So true. They might even have to resort to diabolical villains trying to do terrible things and teams of heroes who are good despite their flaws banding together to stop them and protect the world and the common man. Who wants to read something like that when you could be reading about a world where no one knows which characters to root for and the basic ideas center around people dying for a while and how they can come back? |
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Post by dlw66 on Jul 20, 2009 12:08:37 GMT -5
oh, how could i have forgotten my current favorite title, Guardians of the Galaxy. If you only read ONE Marvel title, it should be Guardians. Yesterday I bought the premier hardcover Guardians of the Galaxy: Earth Shall Overcome. It reprints their first 8 appearances, from Marvel Super-Heroes, Marvel Two-In-One, and the Defenders. It's OLD SCHOOL, baby!!  |
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Post by starfoxxx on Jul 20, 2009 14:43:03 GMT -5
oh, how could i have forgotten my current favorite title, Guardians of the Galaxy. If you only read ONE Marvel title, it should be Guardians. Yesterday I bought the premier hardcover Guardians of the Galaxy: Earth Shall Overcome. It reprints their first 8 appearances, from Marvel Super-Heroes, Marvel Two-In-One, and the Defenders. It's OLD SCHOOL, baby!! Wow, that collection sounds cool, but hardcovers are out of my price range these days. I usually wait for my local book "warehouses" to drop the prices of their trade paperbacks, and I've got some sweet deals in the last few years. And I still love to spend/waste time digging through 50-cent and $1-bins. I actually have a bunch of the early GofG appearances like the Marvel-2-in-1 stuff, and the Defenders and Avengers issues. I've always liked the way they showed up in other books when a space/future/cosmic menace threatened. Oh, and I'm pretty excited because it APPEARS that the original Guardians may be showing up in the new GofG book in the near future! |
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Post by dlw66 on Jul 20, 2009 15:41:14 GMT -5
but hardcovers are out of my price range these days. I usually wait for my local book "warehouses" to drop the prices of their trade paperbacks, and I've got some sweet deals in the last few years. And I still love to spend/waste time digging through 50-cent and $1-bins. After my LCS had to close (didn't go out of business, so to speak -- there were extenuating family circumstances for the owner), the nearest shop is about 20 miles away. Unfortunately, I only get up there when my sons have games in that area. So, I usually buy my "stuff" from Amazon. And as you know, there is a nice discount when purchasing from them. But, I had some extra coin from teaching summer school, and I figured that if we don't support the local guys we'll lose them (especially in these times). So I picked up the aforementioned Guardians collection as well as The Batcave Companion from TwoMorrows. Dropped $53 total, but I feel good for what I bought, and where I bought it. |
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Post by Shiryu on Jul 20, 2009 16:24:38 GMT -5
Make sure to post your comments once you are done reading it! I'm toying with the idea of buying the TPB when it comes out, the Guardians are possibly the Marvel characters I know the least of. I think I've only ever read them in a Thor annual and during the Korvac Saga.
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Post by starfoxxx on Jul 24, 2009 17:56:33 GMT -5
Speaking of "sales", my LCS just had a "Christmas in July" sale with ALL back issues (in the long boxes) at 25-cents.
I gotta admit, I relished buying $10 worth of all those $3.99 and $4.99 comics from the last few years for a quarter, as well as some Vol. 2 Avengers issues, and a bunch of 80's stuff, incl. the entire Judas Contract issues from Teen Titans ( my old copies are pretty beat up from re-reading). Also The X-men at the Texas State Fair, I never knew it was such a neat story and art.
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, but I would like to see Quesada get canned. and ditto what spiderwasp said: i usually agree with spiderwasp.
