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Post by ultron69 on May 28, 2009 7:20:15 GMT -5
T'Challa is quite possibly my favorite Avenger. First of all, he just looks visually cool. Plus, as a kid, I always thought black panthers were the coolest animals (besides rhinos) though this is before I knew about the civil rights group. I also think that T'Challa is just the world's coolest nerd. He is so noble, educated, and mentally strong. I vaguely rememer one issue where he was hoping to settle down to some poetry or something for relaxation (and I think was recommending the same to a fellow Avenger). I also remember where he took exception to Iron Man wanting to use Kovac's squeeze as a hostage. Agree or disagree, that tells you a lot about the character. When I was a kid, running around outside, he was one of the superheroes I pretended to be, along with the Beast, Quicksilver, and the Flash. I guess I have a thing for speedsters and agility guys.
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Post by Crimson Cowl on May 28, 2009 9:49:33 GMT -5
bobc wrote:
I've just checked my old copies to verify this for you. What I said before is accurate. Wolverine is listed as being able to lift 500lb's in the first edition of MU, but in the deluxe edition is said only to have the appropriate strength of someone of his height and build that 'engages in intensive regular exercise'. That's probably less if one considers that Hawkeye's bigger and is suppoed to have exceptional upper body strength.
I'm a little worried about myself that my memory's apparently so good on this stuff!
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Post by bobc on May 28, 2009 10:12:55 GMT -5
I knowwhatcha mean, Crimson! I can actually quote comics from the 60's and 70's, plus I do video games for a living and collect fossils so I am a complete nerd alert! I mean what's next, a Star Trek convention? My only consolation is the fact that I don't much care for fantasy or science fiction--unless it's really good like Blade Runner.
Ultron--BP is my favorite Avenger too--I remember seeing him drawn by JB/TP and I thought he looked really cool and mysterious. I am a huge animal lover/outdoors guy so the whole feline element was cool to me. I could get behind that way more than having a spider or ant schtick .
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Post by Shiryu on May 28, 2009 15:55:34 GMT -5
HB I hear ya--but I'm saying that normal (real) humans have lifted more (1,200 lbs) than what Marvel says a peak human can life (750 lbs). And if real humans are rumored to have lifted 3000 lbs in times of extreme adrenalin rush--wouldn't the super soldier serum mimic that scenario? Just playing devil's advocate here. It's just my interpretation, but I think that the serum or the herbs only highthened their basic physiology, instead of putting them in a state of constant adrenaline rush. In other words, at normal they can lift/press what the perfect human being can, and under stress they can lift/press what the perfect human being can in the same conditions. They both have such keen mind that we haven't really seen either really out of control many times over the years. If the serum acted as a sort of constant adrenalin injection, Cap's heart would have failed long ago because of the excessive stress. Back to the Panther, I like him but in small doses. I remember being disappointed by him during his first stint of membership, and even afterwards he always felt like a Cap without shield and leading skills. However, I liked him very much in Ultron Unlimited, despite the retcon on his motivations for joining the team in the first place.
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Post by humanbelly on May 28, 2009 19:54:52 GMT -5
Y'know, we've touched a couple of times on how Roy and subsequent writers couldn't seem to find a handle on how to use T'Challa, and I tend to agree. But one thing they inadvertantly did that does seem to support the "joined-only-to-spy-on-these-folks" revelation was (and I imagine you'll recognize this, bobc) a tendency to refer to the Panther as "The Man Alone". This was underscored by the fact that he OFTEN took his own one-man jetcraft-thingy on a mission while everyone else hopped into the quinjet. It was like a half-hearted attempt to make "apartness" his character trait. Which, of course, didn't work because he generally seemed to operate smoothly and comfortably in a team environment.
HB
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Post by bobc on May 29, 2009 8:40:14 GMT -5
Shiryu--good points but I would argue that Spiderman's body/heart are human and he can bench 20 tons or something like that. Not really sure why a radioactive spider bite protects somebody's heart any better than a super soldier serum or heart-shaped herb--but yeah you are probably right that BP is just a peak human.
Humanbelly--I love Volstag! He is about the only comic character that makes me laugh all the time. Have you ever read "Confederacy of Dunces?" I swear to God the protagonist in that book, Ignatius O'Reilly, was the inspiration for Volstag!
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Post by Tana Nile on May 29, 2009 15:27:43 GMT -5
While there were many changes to the Panther during the Hudlin run that I disliked, I am happy to see that T'Challa has a more central role in the Marvel Universe now. You get the sense that he is considered a major player - obviously for his combination of intelligence, his status as the leader of a nation, and also for the moral stances he is willing to take. It seemed like for many years people forgot that the Panther was more than an African Captain America: he has an intellect that rivals Stark and Richards, and the vast resources of Wakanda behind him. He has the knowledge and the means to do almost anything.
I have to say, I also like and respect the fact that he turned down membership in the Illuminati...a pretty smart move in light of all that's gone down with that group!
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Post by Shiryu on May 29, 2009 15:39:56 GMT -5
Bob -- An interesting theory on Wikipedia is that the spider's bite acted as a powerful retrovirus, rewriting Peter's DNA. As such, it would have jumpstarted his entire physiology, heart muscles and all included, to superhuman levels. Cap's system has been similarly improved (in one old Avengers' issue he says that his body can better process oxygen, allowing him to be less affected by CO2 saturation at the beginning). However they have only been jumpstarted to peak human, and it has affected the neuro-endocrine systems too. In other words, his peak-human adrenalin on the long term can weaken his peak-human heart like normal adrenalin can weaken a normal heart.
PS, on the retrovirus, apparently they have been able to produce glowing mice in the labs for real with this technique.
Tana -- Do you think Panther is really as smart as Reed or Tony? I kind of see him more around Peter Parker's level, just with enough money and people to think big.
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Post by bobc on May 29, 2009 15:55:45 GMT -5
Shiryu and Tana--yeah T'Challa is definitely on a level with Reed Richards and Tony Stark. One of the things that attracted me to the character was the immense underground metal jungle that the FF flew into on their first trip to Wakanda. To this day, with all the hack, well-worn industry cliches having been driven into the ground, that mechanized jungle is still a completely original concept. I found it astonishing. Still do! And T'Challa invented that stuff and he also created the Avenger's quinjet and a ton of other stuff.
I know you are thinking I am biased, and I am, but I think BP is in Marvel's top 5 geniuses.
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Post by Tana Nile on May 29, 2009 19:21:32 GMT -5
I'll post my response in the "Smartest" thread you started over in the General section, Shiryu.
But yeah, I do think T'Challa is pretty brilliant.
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Post by freedomfighter on May 29, 2009 21:08:02 GMT -5
Bob -- An interesting theory on Wikipedia is that the spider's bite acted as a powerful retrovirus, rewriting Peter's DNA. As such, it would have jumpstarted his entire physiology, heart muscles and all included, to superhuman levels. Cap's system has been similarly improved (in one old Avengers' issue he says that his body can better process oxygen, allowing him to be less affected by CO2 saturation at the beginning). However they have only been jumpstarted to peak human, and it has affected the neuro-endocrine systems too. In other words, his peak-human adrenalin on the long term can weaken his peak-human heart like normal adrenalin can weaken a normal heart. PS, on the retrovirus, apparently they have been able to produce glowing mice in the labs for real with this technique. Tana -- Do you think Panther is really as smart as Reed or Tony? I kind of see him more around Peter Parker's level, just with enough money and people to think big. Shiryu, if you can get your hands on it, read the first appearance of Panther in the FF. He sends a ship to pick up Reed, Ben et al, and Reed comments on how sophisticated the craft is and how he wasn't quite sure how to make one like it. Pretty impressive if Reed doesn't know how something works. True T'Challa may not have done all the work, but I think he's smart enough to challenge just about anyone. Maybe someone who has that issue at hand could quote some of it. I remember there being a bunch of points illustrating how smart T'Challa is. I think also the Panther is much better at understanding people than Reed is. Knowing how to read emotions, and mannerisms and how to manipulate people through them is a science and it's one Reed isn't very good at. An interesting point some website makes about the Panther is he kind of acts like a jerk sometimes. In this same first appearance, he invites the FF to his home and then attacks them. Bad host. Bad.
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Post by humanbelly on May 29, 2009 21:47:28 GMT -5
Ha! Yes, that's right, Freedomfighter (hmm, what do like to be called for short. . . "Freedy"? "FF"? "Freefight"?. . . )-- I'd forgotten that he was a bit of a jerk initially. Do I recall a couple of panels where he's recounting his accomplishments and. . . . . smoking a cigarette? It was a bit jarring, as even then not many of the characters were depicted smoking. Hey, and am I correct that it was T'Challa who designed the quinjets, and ultimately set up their manufacturing facilities? Aaaaand I think he's shown very early on as the scientist in charge of getting the Vision's solar jewel needs taken care of. As with Tony Stark, one has to wonder how in the world he could find the time to sit down and draw all of that stuff up on a drafting board. . .
HB
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Post by Shiryu on May 31, 2009 8:29:17 GMT -5
Shiryu, if you can get your hands on it, read the first appearance of Panther in the FF. He sends a ship to pick up Reed, Ben et al, and Reed comments on how sophisticated the craft is and how he wasn't quite sure how to make one like it. Pretty impressive if Reed doesn't know how something works. True T'Challa may not have done all the work, but I think he's smart enough to challenge just about anyone. Maybe someone who has that issue at hand could quote some of it. I remember there being a bunch of points illustrating how smart T'Challa is. I think also the Panther is much better at understanding people than Reed is. Knowing how to read emotions, and mannerisms and how to manipulate people through them is a science and it's one Reed isn't very good at. An interesting point some website makes about the Panther is he kind of acts like a jerk sometimes. In this same first appearance, he invites the FF to his home and then attacks them. Bad host. Bad. You are probably right, I have only read him on the Avengers so far, where his only real scientific contribute is the Quinjet, but I'm very curious to read his FF issues now. Does anyone remember in which ones he makes his first appearance?
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Post by dlw66 on May 31, 2009 10:53:22 GMT -5
FF 52-53, Shiryu. If you go back to the beginning of this thread, Bob's link will also take you to commentary from Tana, Sharkar, and myself on those issues.
Disclaimer: As that was our first attempt at blogging I would like to say that it pales in comparison to what we've been doing lately.
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Post by Shiryu on Jun 1, 2009 6:54:53 GMT -5
Thanks Dlw! I've read it from the DVD after your post, and the Black Panther definitely comes across an African Reed Richards there. At times there is more technology in his palace than in Kang's starship. He also has 7/7 intelligence in the Marvel website so I was definitely underestimating him. Incidentally, the same website gives 7 to Pym too, but only 6 to Banner (same as Peter Parker). Indeed it does, that blog is always a great read for all things comics. I only wish I had more time to comment more!
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Post by bobc on Jun 1, 2009 9:55:00 GMT -5
So who is considered the smartest Marvel character? I'd guess Reed Richards--correct? I'd put him above the Panther because of snazzy inventions like the portal to the Negative Zone. I'd put the Panther around Tony Stark's level although BP never concentrated on weapons as Tony Stark did (Richards never really did either).
It's kinda hard to compare somebody like Hank Pym to Reed or BP because Hank was a biologist and really brilliant in that regard, obviously, but he didn't invent many weapons or other technology. I'd put Hank way up there though in terms of intelligence.
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Post by Shiryu on Jun 1, 2009 15:32:47 GMT -5
Pym created Ultron (no wonder he kind of gave up the habit afterwards ;D). He is one of the Avengers' greatest foes, but technologically speaking is as advanced as some of the things that Reed or Tony invented. The Pym Particles are no small feat either.
But, despite considering Doom a bit superior as stated in the other post, I think that Reed is generally seen as the smartest human around.
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Post by bobc on Jun 1, 2009 15:46:30 GMT -5
I can't believe I forgot that HP invented Ultron. I'm so John Buscema.
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Post by sharkar on Jun 1, 2009 22:01:51 GMT -5
...Do you think Panther is really as smart as Reed or Tony? I kind of see him more around Peter Parker's level, just with enough money and people to think big. In addition to what others have said, Shiryu, IIRC you named Avengers #113 as having one of your favorite titles ("Your Young Men Shall Slay Visions!"). Well, in that issue there's a great sequence in which Don Blake, Tony Stark, and "one of the world's foremost scientists" (guess who) try to revive the injured Vision. Yes, the scientist referred to is T'Challa (drawn very nicely by Bob Brown, I must add). T'Challa's always been counted as one of the intellectual/scientific giants in the Marvel Universe. P.S. I also love that sequence in #113 because of the Tony-Don interplay in which it's apparent to both of them (and the reader) that they've known each others' "secret" identities for a while.
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Post by bobc on Jun 2, 2009 10:04:32 GMT -5
Right Sharky--I was going to point that issue out too. And don't forget that in the 80's when Byrne had the Beast in the Avengers, the Beast felt over-shadowed as scientist by Tony Stark and T'Challa, even though he probably was just as smart.
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Post by Shiryu on Jun 2, 2009 13:16:46 GMT -5
You are both right. And in another of my favourite books, The Death of Captain Marvel G.N., he is among the geniuses gathered by Rick.
Ok, I concede defeat ^^
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Post by sharkar on Jun 2, 2009 17:56:13 GMT -5
Ah, okay... then there's no need to mention that T'Challa was also known to have designed some of Hawkeye's arrows, as in #63, which made Hawkeye feel inferior ("I ain't in you guys' league..." referring to the Vision and T'Challa)--this made Clint feel so bad he then took on the Goliath identity to compensate! (And I have got to read that Captain Marvel GN one of these days, Shiryu...thanks for the reminder.) Right Sharky--I was going to point that issue out too. And don't forget that in the 80's when Byrne had the Beast in the Avengers, the Beast felt over-shadowed as scientist by Tony Stark and T'Challa, even though he probably was just as smart. Bob, the mention of Byrne reminds me of one of my all-time favorite Avengers splashes/sequences, but from earlier, the 1970s: big brains T'Challa, Hank Pym (seemingly miraculously recovered from his Ant-Man breakdown of a couple issues earlier), and Tony are examining Simon Williams---the Beast is there too but the others totally ignore what's he's saying! Poor McCoy feels so left out. Yeah, I'll never forget those great panels by Byrne (okay, the fact that Wonder Man is only partly clad here may have something to do with it ... . Anyway, an interesting scene. -CPO Sharky
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Post by Shiryu on Jun 2, 2009 19:39:24 GMT -5
Ah, okay... then there's no need to mention that T'Challa was also known to have designed some of Hawkeye's arrows, as in #63, which made Hawkeye feel inferior ("I ain't in you guys' league..." referring to the Vision and T'Challa)--this made Clint feel so bad he then took on the Goliath identity to compensate! (And I have got to read that Captain Marvel GN one of these days, Shiryu...thanks for the reminder.) You welcome... and if you are happy with the computer version, here it is ;D (yes, Tempting Devil is my middle name) ^^
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Post by bobc on Jun 3, 2009 9:01:46 GMT -5
Right you are, Sharky. I remember that exchange between the Beast and BP, HP and TS. But please don't remind me of happier times when comics actually had story-lines and recognizable characters--remember that Bendis has me teetering on the abyss already, and you wouldn't want to be responsible for my next mental collapse.
Fun Fact: More inventions by T'Challa!! The Black Panther designed The Falcon's wings too!
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Post by bobc on Jun 4, 2009 12:41:29 GMT -5
I just bought the latest issue of Black Panther. It was excellent. Must say.
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