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Post by Shiryu on Feb 25, 2009 13:14:53 GMT -5
Don't worry, one or two pages, especially posted for discussion purposes and not to let people read the entire comic without buying it, are perfectly fine. There are thousands everywhere in the web. BTW, YJ's description of what happens in Germany is very similar to what happens in Italy, except for the words' lenght, which is not as much of a problem over there. What is a lot harder is to translate some words that in English have a very specific/subtle meaning, or some arcaic forms. It's not Avengers, but here is a cover gallery for all the Italian Spider-Man ("L'Uomo Ragno") issues from 1997 to current days www.ragnoman.com/). And this is a very rare picture of the first edition of Daredevil #1. As you can see, his original yellow costume was recolored red
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Post by Yellowjacket on Feb 25, 2009 15:02:29 GMT -5
Similar to DLW's question, I'm wondering if the names of any of our favorite Avengers have been changed significantly in translation? Today the names are no longer translated anymore, at least in most cases. Overall this is the better solution, not only because someone (in Germany) will always complain how "bad" this or that name is translated. But sometimes the translations changed over the years and that can be confusing... But German publisher Williams did translate most of the characters names. Overall they did a very good job with this. Some of the translations were bad (For example Doctor Doom was in the beginning called "Doktor Unheil", which is 100% correctly translated. Nevertheless it is not good, sounds strange even for German ears. So they soon changed to the original of Doctor Doom. Right now I´m not sure about the "c" in Doctor, it may have been the German "k" instead.) But you did ask for some of our Avengers character translations: Ant-Man = Ameisenmann Beast = Biest Black Knight = Schwarzer Ritter Black Widow = Schwarze Witwe Captain America = Captain America =>an common error when German language is used is to name Cap "Kaptitän America", which is totally wrong, because "Kaptitän" is marine but Cap is army. So it would be "Hauptmann America". Giant-Man = Gigant Goliath = Goliath Hawkeye = Falkenauge Iron Man = (Der) Eiserne Quicksilver = Quecksilber Scarlet Witch = mostly Scharlachhexe but also Purpurhexe =>Scharlachhexe isn´t that good a translations because in German you mainly think of the illness (scarlet fever) not of the color. Some villains: Count Nefaria = Graf Nefarius (see the slightly changed ending) Living Laser = Lebender Laser Swordsman = Schwertmann So though some may sound strange for English ears they are mostly verbatim translations. At last one translations I always liked and still do like: Silver Surfer = Silberstürmer Literally Silver Surfer would have been have translated to "Silberner Wellenreiter"--that is what Silver Surfer means in German. But that wouldn´t have been good, no way. So they did create the powerful "Silberstürmer" which is way, way better. "Silberstürmer" does the character justice. But actually it means something like "silver center forward" or "silver striker"... And the simple form of "Stürmer" is "Sturm" which does mean "storm"...
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Post by sharkar on Feb 25, 2009 21:31:12 GMT -5
This thread just keeps getting better and better! This is great! ;D
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Post by sharkar on Feb 25, 2009 21:46:11 GMT -5
My favorite is and let's hear it for...Wunder Mann! You really have a great website, Yellowjacket...or should I say "Gelbjacke". I notice that Captain Marvel (Mar-Vell) stories from his first Silver Age series are also included in many of the Rächer issues- -so two series included in one comic--pretty sweet!
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Post by Dr. Hank Pym on Feb 25, 2009 22:17:04 GMT -5
Doesn't matter what country it's from, to me that is such a beautiful cover.
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Post by Shiryu on Feb 26, 2009 9:21:17 GMT -5
This thread just keeps getting better and better! This is great! ;D I saw it once a comic book shop, and it was even stranger. The red was somewhat light, like when you cover a color with another and the result is almost a combination. You may also notice that Daredevil in Italy is Devil only. Like Germany, we translated some characters (Spider-Man became Uomo Ragno, Captain America -> Capitan America, Yellowjacket -> Calabrone, Vision -> Visione etc). Others however staid the same, like Iron-Man, Moondragon or Wasp. I think the translation would have sounded too corny ^^
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Post by Tana Nile on Feb 26, 2009 10:41:06 GMT -5
This is really fascinating! The story behind the Silver Surfer's name is pretty neat. And the Daredevil cover was great too.
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Post by Shiryu on Feb 26, 2009 12:04:29 GMT -5
A couple more (Dare)Devil old italian covers (note they also include the Silver Surfer, whose name doesn't change). www.endrucomics.it/images/Immagine%20060.jpgwww.endrucomics.it/images/Immagine%20061.jpgwww.endrucomics.it/images/Immagine%20062.jpgwww.endrucomics.it/images/Immagine%20063.jpgand the first ever Spider-Man one They immediately went for Romita's art on the cover, and include Dr.Strange ("the Super Magician" ^^) inside, possibly because they were both drawn by Kirby at the time. This publisher, Corno, only lasted from 1970 to 1981 before bankrupting and having to close down, and Marvel comics disappeared from Italy for half a decade! They came back around 1987. The new publisher, Star Comics, tested the market by publishing Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four together in the same book, then giving the FF their own magazine and including the X-Men with Spidey, in order to test the audience. More importantly, they decided to keep the quality high by skipping entire groups of stories considered to be not good enough, like almost 50 issues of Marvel Team Up. Most of these stories were printed years later, but a few are still un-published, like Avengers 203-208, 218 and 223. #189-199, 201 and 203 were also skipped but eventually published. This is unlike Corno, which published everything (and according to many this is the reason why the bankrupted eventually). A final note: Star Comics picked up different comics at different times, so for several years the internal Marvel Chronology between books was shattered. Spider-Man in particular was 2 or more years ahead than Avengers or F.Four, so he had the black costume before Reed, Cap and so on left for the Secret Wars. There was always a page of notes at the end of the book to explain this and other things to the readers.
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Post by michidiers on Feb 27, 2009 5:48:26 GMT -5
Very interesting to get more knowledge about the books in our european neighbourhood. I suppose in the book "Lúmo ragno" no.1 gots the original story amazing fantasy 15, or not?
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Post by Shiryu on Feb 27, 2009 11:08:55 GMT -5
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Doctor Bong
Reservist Avenger
Master of belly dancing (no, really...)!
Posts: 167
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Post by Doctor Bong on Feb 27, 2009 11:34:20 GMT -5
Spanish translations were indeed very wordy! Growing up reading them, I loved the Marvel heroes' soliloquies for the same reason I enjoyed Homer's warriors boasts on the Iliad. In both cases they talked their hearts out before getting medieval with their enemies.
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Post by michidiers on Feb 28, 2009 9:17:13 GMT -5
Here you can compare two Avenger cover. The no 62 from Germany and the original US-no 63 . Here you can see, that the german publishing company (Williams Verlag) not only had to translate the letters. It was nessesary to draw parts of the cover new. Especially they had to create the whole stone-rock letters by a graphic designer new. The costume of the Black Widow had become a new colour. And you remark Goliaths mouth? I think, someone has drawn the whole head of the Goliath new. I don´t now why, perhaps because of his grim facial expression. But, I guess.....the german readers aren´t fearfuller than the american... The translation of the issue is really excellent. It looks, the german letters in the german speech ballon are a little bit smaller to compensate the 30% (30%- you can read about it in yellowjackets post!).
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Post by Yellowjacket on Mar 1, 2009 11:40:16 GMT -5
You may also notice that Daredevil in Italy is Devil only. Like Germany, we translated some characters (Spider-Man became Uomo Ragno, Captain America -> Capitan America, Yellowjacket -> Calabrone, Vision -> Visione etc). Others however staid the same, like Iron-Man, Moondragon or Wasp. I think the translation would have sounded too corny ^^ Yes, there you have a nice comparison between the translations of a "Roman language area" and a "Germanic language" like both German and English are. So it´s really no wonder the German translations are often times such alike the English names. The most "unusual" (not to say funny sounding!) names I´ve heard of so far are from Scandinavia and there especially from Finnland. Which isn´t that surprising when you know that Finnish (and Estonian) are related to Hungarian, though people from Finnland most likely wouldn´t understand people from Hungary at all. But they are not related to Roman or Germanic languages at all. But I´m sure there are even more arcane sounding names for our Marvel heroes out there. But now some examples: Sweden (a Germanic language) Fantastic Four = Fantastika Fyran Spider-Man = Spindelmannen Denmark (a Germanic language) Fantastic Four = Fantastike Fire (no, the book isn´t merely about the Human Torch ) Spider-Man = Edderkoppen FinnlandFantastic Four = Ihmeneloset Spider-Man = Hämmästyttävä Hämähäkki (really not a joke!)
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Post by von Bek on Mar 6, 2009 11:48:40 GMT -5
I notice that Captain Marvel (Mar-Vell) stories from his first Silver Age series are also included in many of the Rächer issues- -so two series included in one comic--pretty sweet! In Brazil four or five series were included in one comic. THAT was pretty sweet . But many pages of the original stories were cut off...
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Post by von Bek on Mar 6, 2009 11:52:42 GMT -5
And here is the real Italian Spiderman (not Uomo Ragno) :
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Post by sharkar on Mar 9, 2009 18:31:08 GMT -5
And here is the real Italian Spiderman (not Uomo Ragno) : LOL!!! ;D ;D ;D That was priceless, von bek--thanks! In Brazil four or five series were included in one comic. THAT was pretty sweet . But many pages of the original stories were cut off... The inclusion of four or five different series in a single comic reminds me of one of my favorite anthology comics, Marvel Collectors' Items Classics (which was later retitled Marvel's Greatest Comics). MCIC was my Marvel "history book" as it included reprints of the older stories of FF, Hulk, Iron Man and Dr. Strange- -though as far as I know, there were no deletions in the stories...at least, I sure hope not! EDIT: added a second quote from von Bek
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Post by sharkar on Mar 9, 2009 19:07:11 GMT -5
I was wondering why the Vision appears with his colors reversed in the cover corner box,which shows him in a predominantly yellow costume with green accents including a green cape... I had first noticed it a while ago when Die Rächer #100 was displayed here on the boards... BTW, a little while ago I mentioned the cover of Die Rächer 100, but I susequently realized I'd seen it on another forum I post at occasionally- -and not here on the AA boards. Here it is, from the CBR Avengers forum, from Dec. 2006. It was posted by someone who calls himself the "the4thpip." And of course, he used a cover image from YJ's magnificent site. So that's when I first noticed the Vision's colors in the corner box, and I'm grateful that YJ cleared it up for me recently. "the4th pip" also commented on when Avengers #102 and onwards were reprinted by the other publisher (not Williams), it was "in a horrible digest format that had bland recoloring and where up to 75% of the dialogue was left out due to the smaller speech balloons." forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?p=4170810#post4170810
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Post by michidiers on Mar 13, 2009 14:10:56 GMT -5
The number 100 was the last issue of the Avengers Comics from the Williams Publishing Company (Williams Verlag, last issues: Spider Man = 136? and FV = 124?). I think it was around 1979. Only one Williams - titel (DC Horror) remainded for a few years until around 1983. The following publisher, the Condor Pulishing company (Condor-Verlag) published the Avengers in a pocket book size (1/2 size of the normal comic format) with the half size pictures, half size panels and half size speak ballons. Believe me, the 80th were a dark marvel-age in Germany.... On or about 1999 a new house, the Panini-Verlag from Italy, began to publish the Marvel Avengers Comics in Germany. The Avengers got back the old dignified gracefully old size. (but unfortunately they began with the lousy "Heroes Reborn" - arc ) Rächer Nummer 100 = a most wanted comic here in Germany. Good luck: I have got it!
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Post by sharkar on Mar 15, 2009 19:18:23 GMT -5
Here you can compare two Avenger cover. The no 62 from Germany and the original US-no 63 . Here you can see, that the german publishing company (Williams Verlag) not only had to translate the letters. It was nessesary to draw parts of the cover new. Especially they had to create the whole stone-rock letters by a graphic designer new. Michidiers and YJ, is that how the first two pages of Die Rächer #60 (which would have reprinted Avengers #61) were handled, too? The title spanned two full pages--the splash page (page 1) contained "Some Say the World Will End in Fire..." and page 2 contained "...Some Say in Ice!" The lettering was an integral part of the design of those two pages, dominating the pages. Those pages must have been difficult to redo!
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Post by Tana Nile on Mar 17, 2009 20:29:27 GMT -5
And here is the real Italian Spiderman (not Uomo Ragno) : Oh my...that was really...uh...something else! You really come back with a bang, Von Beck!
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Post by michidiers on Mar 19, 2009 12:16:15 GMT -5
@shakar: Here is a picture of the two sides of the comic you have spoken from to compare it with the us-original. Is someone able to post here a foto of the same two us-pages?
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Post by Ignore Me! on Mar 19, 2009 14:01:45 GMT -5
Let's not forget Indian Superman and Spider...woman?
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Post by michidiers on Mar 22, 2009 12:39:21 GMT -5
Regarding to my first post i asked for the "short cut edition" to a lot of editors of the US twomorrows.com/ . Only two persons answered. And this two persons are very public charakters from former times: Bob McLeod and Roy Thomas (i hope these are the real former marvel-force-workers ;D). Despite I´m very proud, that I´ve become mails of this two famos persons, their responses were disappointed: They don´t know something about such an issue. Bob Mcleod gave me the advise to send the issue back to the seller. And Roy Thomas didn´t openend my first mail, he scared it was e virus-mail. Even after my second mail he answered, that he never heard about a comic like that.. Very diillusioning....
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Post by sharkar on Mar 22, 2009 18:01:41 GMT -5
Bob Mcleod gave me the advise to send the issue back to the seller. That's a good idea; the seller should know why he described the comic as a "shortcut" edition. @shakar: Here is a picture of the two sides of the comic you have spoken from to compare it with the us-original. Is someone able to post here a foto of the same two us-pages? Many thanks for posting those pages, michidiers. I wish we could make this bigger (Shiryu?), but I can see enough of it to know that's it's in keeping with the style of the original pages. Letterers sure earn their keep when they work on pages like this! And I wish I could reciprocate and provide scans of the original pages from Avengers #61, but unfortunately I don't have access to a scanner.
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Post by michidiers on Mar 25, 2009 12:15:37 GMT -5
Is someone able to make it a litte bit smaller?
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Post by sharkar on Mar 26, 2009 18:34:08 GMT -5
Thanks for posting these pages, michidiers--I can see an excellent job was done replicating the effect of the original pages. There are minor differences, such as the shapes of the flames atop the letters on the first page, but that's to be expected.
The credits list an H. Huff and a K. Isels--instead of the American letterer--with the description "Deutsche Bearbeitung." I wonder if these two had a hand in the issue's lettering.
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Post by Shiryu on Mar 30, 2009 17:31:09 GMT -5
Is someone able to make it a litte bit smaller? I edited the post, sorry for the long delay in taking care of this. The easiest way for small size images is to upload them at www.imageshack.com and then posting here the "Thumbnail for forums" link Clicking on the image makes it appear at full size.
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Post by michidiers on Apr 4, 2009 14:47:26 GMT -5
Here is a picture of my two US_Avenger Comics no. 197. As you can see these two of the same comics gots little different covers. These comics gots two different corner boxes. One box gots the face from Spidey an the other box gots a bar code. Is someone able to tell why these covers gots different boxes. Would it be better for me to stay with both issues or can i sell one of these two issues on ebay (for example)? It is for collectors important to have both covers? Is one of these two covers more precious than the other?
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Post by spiderwasp on Apr 4, 2009 15:14:57 GMT -5
Here is a picture of my two US_Avenger Comics no. 197. As you can see these two of the same comics gots little different covers. These comics gots two different corner boxes. One box gots the face from Spidey an the other box gots a bar code. Is someone able to tell why these covers gots different boxes. Would it be better for me to stay with both issues or can i sell one of these two issues on ebay (for example)? It is for collectors important to have both covers? Is one of these two covers more precious than the other? As far as whether one is more valuable than the other or not, I'm not sure but I don't think so. I do know the reason for the difference however and it was very common during the time period. It depended on whether the book was shipped to and sold at regular retailers or at comic book specialty shops. I think the Spidey was on the covers at the comic stores and the bar code at other locations. Someone can correct me if I have this backward or am wrong altogether.
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Post by Shiryu on Apr 4, 2009 15:18:02 GMT -5
Would it be better for me to stay with both issues or can i sell one of these two issues on ebay (for example)? It is for collectors important to have both covers? Is one of these two covers more precious than the other? As a general rule, covers are extremely important for true collectors, but for the issue to have a special value, we would have to be certain that one of the two versions is very rare, and not just a matter of the serial code being printed somewhere randomly. A serial code should be mandatory somewhere on the cover. Does the other one, with Spidey's face, have it somewhere else or on the back?
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