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Post by dlw66 on Jan 30, 2009 14:20:28 GMT -5
First off, thanks for your consideration, Shiryu! Establishing this section dedicated to all things DC was a great move, and will hopefully increase traffic on the AA! boards.
I've loved the Legion almost as long as I've loved the Avengers, the FF, and the X-Men. In a conversation with Sharkar and Tana a few days ago, we were waxing nostalgiac on the Legion's long history.
What are your thoughts? Which era is/was your favorite? Who are your favorite characters? With Superboy or without?
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jan 30, 2009 18:50:24 GMT -5
I envy you, because I've never "gotten" the Legion. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's the only major franchise in super-hero comics I don't 'get. Superman, Batman, FLash, Lantern, Wonder Woman, the League, the JSA, all of them I get, I understand, they intrigue me, I may not LIKE all of them but I understand them. Legion is impenetrable to me. Too many characters I don't know with only Superman as the anchor- and even then only occasionally. oo many different versions, too many worlds, too much backstory.
I'm sure the Legion is a wonderful franchise and a great concept, but it's the only thing in super-hero comics I just can't seem to really wrap my head around at all.
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Post by scottharris on Jan 30, 2009 20:00:32 GMT -5
I envy you, because I've never "gotten" the Legion. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's the only major franchise in super-hero comics I don't 'get. Superman, Batman, FLash, Lantern, Wonder Woman, the League, the JSA, all of them I get, I understand, they intrigue me, I may not LIKE all of them but I understand them. Legion is impenetrable to me. Too many characters I don't know with only Superman as the anchor- and even then only occasionally. oo many different versions, too many worlds, too much backstory. I'm sure the Legion is a wonderful franchise and a great concept, but it's the only thing in super-hero comics I just can't seem to really wrap my head around at all. I'm with Doom on this one. There are some cool characters, and the basic premise is kinda cool -- except for, uh, the teenager part -- but it's just way, way too much. On a sort of related note, I did once like Legion. I started reading comics in 1984/5, and began buying just about everything I could, including stuff like LSH and Teen Titans. And then, just a few months into it, Crisis on Infinite Earths happened and rebooted half the titles I was reading; didn't reboot the other half; and switched 1/3 of them over to new prestige format books while the titles I had been reading became reprint books, and... like, seriously, what were they thinking? For a kid like me just trying to get into the DC universe, it totally shut me out. I was totally confused, especially because I didn't actually read Crisis itself, and all the stuff I was just starting to like got completely pulled out from under me with weird reboots. It just seemed like DC, in trying to make things "more accessible", alienated a whole generation of potential fans. Or maybe it was just me. But I don't think it was. So, to answer the original question, my favorite era of LSH is the last ten issues or so before Crisis, around #340, because those are the only issues I was able to read before DC ruined the whole franchise.
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Post by dlw66 on Jan 31, 2009 8:37:12 GMT -5
Intesting comments, guys -- and I think if I were a little younger I might be right with you. Let me explain...
I would have started my affair with the Legion around 1973-74. This would have been very shortly after the Dave Cockrum era, and just into the Mike Grell era. The costumes were very modern (gaudy now, but cutting edge (and even edgy) back then), the characters looked like modern teenagers/young adults (I have an aunt who was in high school at this time), and the science fiction elements (although sometimes silly today -- or even achieved by our 21st C. science!) were eye-popping to my elementary school-aged mind.
Even as a youngster I really couldn't get into Superman. His villains were never challenging enough, the whole Lois-on-his-trail deal seemed silly, and the imaginary stories were annoying. Superboy, however, when in the Legion had none of that. He operated as, to me, an almost completely different character. So I liked his powers and his leadership, I liked the hero worship that the Legion afforded him, and it just seemed that there were more challenges for him in the 30th Century.
I liked that the Legion was diverse. Those were the days of race problems in American schools, of busing, and just a sometimes mistrust between blacks and whites. The Legion didn't have that. Sure, with only a few exceptions all of the characters were white, but the introduction of Tyroc and Dawnstar "colored" the roster a bit. I also felt that the romance between Mon-el and Shadow Lass was intriguing, and a good model for racial tolerance -- again, these are all thoughts from my then-perspective as an 8-year old.
Speaking of Mon-el, he has always been my favorite Legionnaire. Superboy but without all of the Superman baggage. Nuff said.
Back to you guys, Scott and Doom: Scott, you were getting into comics when I was getting back into them after a 4-year hiatus. In my opinion, the '80's were never as good as the '70's and I know that's just a position prejudiced by what my first and early-lasting encounters were. My tastes in music, tv, movies, and comics all tend to remain in what was popular when I was growing up. Good or bad, those things have become my standard. Stuck in the past, that's me! But had I to face the post-Crisis Legion for the first time as you did, I may not have liked it at all. While I've not read any of the stories that came right after the Crisis, I don't care to explore the really weird, too-science fiction Legion of Keith Giffen, et al. I've seen it, know a little backstory, know that the characters became adults, etc. Just don't care for it.
And Doom, my guess with you is that you may have come along with one of the many reboots in the '90's. The Tom and Mary Bierbaum/Chris Sprouse era, perhaps? That is when I got back into the Legion, and if we are indeed talking about the same thing then I can sympathize with you as well. It was tough to understand what was happening. The reboot only a few years after that, led by Tom McCraw and Jeff Moy, was much better IMO and has kept me in the fold since. While I am not all the way up-to-date on this latest reboot's reading, I have a fair idea of what is going on with the book. Of course, I hear they are stopping it again (issue #50, maybe) and will probably retool it yet AGAIN!
I have all 12 volumes of The Legion Archives, which takes me right up to when I started reading as a child. Yes, there is a tremendous backstory to the team, but it's a fun ride through the Silver Age and through a time when The Jetsons was told as a super-hero yarn. To read it straight through as a long narrative is to find some of the Marvel elements of story-telling that were largely absent from other DC books. For whatever reason, the Legion's creators were able to break the usual DC mold and go out and do something different. That set the Legion apart from DC's other stories.
Tana and Sharkar -- care to toss in your two cents (or even your four cents?? ;D )?
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Post by Tana Nile on Jan 31, 2009 10:35:26 GMT -5
I've been thinking about this since I saw your post Doug. The Legion was the first DC book I truly followed. I got into Legion around the same time as you, when Mike Grell had just started drawing it, and Jim Shooter was writing it. However, although I have a fondness for that era, my favorite run of books would be those done by Paul Levitz and Jim Sherman, around issues 232-250 or so. This is when the Legion really felt like a team to me - big casts, and big, on-going stories. During the Shooter/Grell period, each issue was self-contained. The stories all felt lightweight to me (particularly since I had come over from Marvel). But Levitz initiated a number of continued stories that were much heavier, particularly the Earthwar saga. This period was strong in characterization, had a lot of space action (which I love), and tons of Legionnaires (even the Subs).
I also enjoyed the Great Darkness Saga by Levitz and Giffen, but was never all that fond of Giffen's artwork. When they started constantly rebooting the group is when I started losing interest. The Bierbaum stuff was intriguing, but I never really got into it.
As a Starlin fan, the issues he did (some as "Steve Apollo", since he was unhappy with editorial decisions) are also favorites, even though he made Brainiac 5 insane! Ah, Starlin.
As a kid, my favorite characters were Brainiac 5, Wildfire, Shadow Lass and Chameleon Boy. I also liked the never-quite-romance between Wildfire and Dawnstar -that poor guy!
I'll probably check out whatever the newest version of Legion will be, especially if Geoff Johns is writing it.
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Post by Shiryu on Jan 31, 2009 13:12:17 GMT -5
This is a very interesting discussion, especially for someone like me who has never even seen a Legion book. DC is hardly published in Italy, and when it is, it's only with Superman, Batman, sometimes Wonder Woman, Flash and Green Lantern, and the main events. As such I've only seen the Legion once, when they make an apperance in Superman's Last Story by Moore.
But I also must admit that the nature of the team, and the lack of mainstream DC characters, never prompted me to do any research on them. For some reason in my mind they are like the Guardian of the Galaxy, nice occasional guest stars but not main characters.
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nova36
Force Works-er
Posts: 19
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Post by nova36 on Feb 5, 2009 18:07:47 GMT -5
To me the legion brings back many fond memories, as a kid they had these legion digests, which reprinted the silver age stuff from the beginning. I think that was my introduction to the legion. It gave me a real sense of history with the team it went back at that time 20-30 years, legion members gave thier lives, there was the legion code, thier connections to the 20th century.. ( superman, supergirl, barry allen ect.) it seemed more than just the 31st centuries version of the JLA. so i started getting the comic i believe it was the levitz and giffen era.. i do remember the new invisible kid .. a reluctant hero.. shortly after that was the great darkness saga..which was.. WOW !! i was thinking who is this guy taking on the whole legion and when darkseid was revealed taking on both supes and kara to me one of the greatest legion stories ever, then there were the relationships.. couples, the fake violet who turned out to be yera, the subs. it seemed you did not need to read dc comics to get the legion in a way they remind me of the xmen.. who while they live in the marvel U rarely interact with em. but then COIE happened and while i tried to stay after the 5 years later arc i soon lost my way. Recently i have rediscovered my love for the legion.. recently the kidswb had a legion cartoon and touched on many silver age stuff ... an enjoyable run. Then jim shooter comes back to the LOSH and i started up with the comic again... while i did not enjoy the end it has brought me back into the fold.. i am loving johns and perez on legion of 3 worlds. I think really the legion can operate that grand space opera stuff if done right.. large cast of charas what they remember of us 21st century types ect. There also seems to be a real sense of gravitas to the legion, ferro lad's death ect. as if it needs to be said Long Live the Legion!! ps. while writing this post i do now remember the first legion comic i ever read, as i child i was in the hospital alot (due to type1 diabetes). A family friend bought me a legion comic to read it was the secret origin of wildfire.. soo yea wildfire is my fave member of the legion.
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Post by sharkar on Feb 11, 2009 21:19:07 GMT -5
Thanks for starting this thread, Doug--and thanks also to Shiryu for this new DC board! For me, the Legion's appeal is based on one thing: the characters. I've always preferred a large cast of characters; it seems more like a tapestry to me, a sprawling novel. And I am amazed to see that these characters--who were not A-listers back in the 1960s, or even B-listers--have endured for 40 years, most of them with the very same elements they had back when I was reading them (in Adventure). I have all 12 volumes of The Legion Archives, which takes me right up to when I started reading as a child...To read it straight through as a long narrative is to find some of the Marvel elements of story-telling that were largely absent from other DC books. For whatever reason, the Legion's creators were able to break the usual DC mold and go out and do something different. That set the Legion apart from DC's other stories. Yes, exactly. This was certainly the case with my very first Legion story, "The Ghost of Ferro Lad", in Adventure #357 (1967). This story referenced past events, which was very unlike my usual DC fare back then (Batman, Wonder Woman, Lois Lane, JLA, a couple of other books). I've read that Shooter said that because the Legion was set in the future and wasn't really connected to present continuity, Weisinger was usually hands off with the LSH writers (Shooter, Bridwell, and earlier, Edmond Hamilton). He would give them story ideas (usually based on a movie or book) but he would often let them flesh the story out as they wanted, since it wouldn't really impact the rest of his Superman family of books. Obviously, the writers couldn't go as far as to kill off Superboy or Supergirl...though at one point Bridwell wanted to remove them from the Legion, so he wrote them off in #350, and Weisinger okayed the move. But then the publisher (or someone high up) got wind of this and ordered the cousins back (hence the hasty deus ex machina ending in #351). Also, Shooter was a big Marvel fan before turning pro (at 14), so when he started writing scripts for DC, he deliberately wrote in a more Marvelesque manner than most other DC writers at the time did. He also did the LSH layouts (for Swan and later, Mortimer). Anyway, in terms of reading the Legion today...I too have some of the LSH Archives, volumes 9-12; and I have the tpbs of the Legion since their last reboot. I don't care who's writing them, or drawing them; I just love the Legion!
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Post by goldenfist on Feb 13, 2009 16:02:01 GMT -5
I've been reading the Legion of Three Worlds which has been a good mini series to read.
Seeing all three Legions come together is great, So I guess Super man replaces Superboy on the current Legion roster.
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Post by sharkar on Feb 15, 2009 20:51:49 GMT -5
I've been reading the Legion of Three Worlds which has been a good mini series to read. Seeing all three Legions come together is great, So I guess Super man replaces Superboy on the current Legion roster. Thanks for the recommendation, goldenfist. I will definitely pick this up when it's issued as a collection (which will be in August, from what I've read). And you've also reminded me that I want to read "The Lighting Saga" tpb.
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Post by goldenfist on Feb 22, 2009 16:22:48 GMT -5
I have the Lighting Saga but most people said it was a terrible plot line.
I think the reason Legion of Three Worlds hasn't finished is becau se Geroge Perez has been having trouble with his hand.
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Post by starfoxxx on Feb 22, 2009 17:00:31 GMT -5
The Legion of 3 Worlds have been late, but worth the wait. There's a couple 2-page spreads by perez in #3 that blew me away. My favorite DC title, by a mile.
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Post by goldenfist on Feb 26, 2009 10:14:03 GMT -5
Got that right I am waiting to see what happens in the next issue.
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Post by ultron69 on May 7, 2009 6:38:27 GMT -5
The Levitz Legion is my favorite, though anything from the late 60's to the early 90's is great. I am of the opinion that Superboy is not at all necessary. I don't mind if he's there, but I don't care if he's not, also. I am waiting to get Legion of 3 Wolrds in TPB.
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Post by goldenfist on May 25, 2009 13:40:19 GMT -5
Would that be the Clone Superboy your talking about.
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Post by ultron69 on May 27, 2009 13:05:32 GMT -5
If the question was meant for me, I meant any Supberboy. I think it's nice to have him, but I don't think it's essential that he's a member. He served as their inspiration, and that's geat, but I don't think that means he needs to travel throguh time and join them.
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Post by goldenfist on Jun 7, 2009 12:44:46 GMT -5
I heard that Dave Corckum was going to have Nightcrawler on the legion but he felt that Nightcrawler didn't fit the Legion which is why Dave put him on the X-MEN.
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Post by ultron69 on Jun 9, 2009 7:18:27 GMT -5
I think that DC, not Cockrum, nixed the idea of Nightcrawler in the Legion. They felt that he was "too demonic" or some such garbage. Funny for a book that is supposed to be made up of characters from around the galaxy.
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Post by goldenfist on Jun 16, 2009 13:38:17 GMT -5
DC missed out on having a cool character. Heck I heard that Tyr was supposed to be part of the X-MEN but I think Marvel rejected him, I read about it at this link. www.toyotter.com/sp/tyr.html
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