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Post by Dr. Hank Pym on Aug 5, 2008 23:13:47 GMT -5
Hi gang! I was in my local comic shop today, and picked up a lot of old books, including a few Hank Pym Marvel Feature's, and some West Coast books. I also decided to pick up some recent era issues of the Avengers. I bought issues 393 and 394, which are smack dab in the middle of The Crossing storyline of 1995/1996. 393 involves Tony Stark wounding the Wasp, which then makes Hank go crazy, and he puts her in some weird cocoon thing, which opens in issue 394, resulting in one of the most... interesting forms of The Wasp I'd ever seen at the time I first read the book.
The whole time, I kept going "Man, these books actually really aren't that good..." I can't believe I was somehow able to stomach this crap every month at one point! They were boring, confusing (The art and text were all over the place!) and most of all, really slowly paced. I kept felt like saying "COME ON! Get on with the rambling!" and it obviously didn't help that Mantis was featured heavily in the stories!
I got me thinking, it's obvious that a major decline in the stories had begun at some point, and has lead to the now apparently atrocious stories that are in the Mighty and New books. So it led me to create this hopefully interesting topic: Do you think the Avenger stories have declined as a whole, and if so, when do you think it began? I'll voice my opinion when I see what everyone else says, I'd love to hear your responses!
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Post by spiderwasp on Aug 6, 2008 14:52:34 GMT -5
Do you think the Avenger stories have declined as a whole, and if so, when do you think it began? I'll voice my opinion when I see what everyone else says, I'd love to hear your responses! Yes I certainly do think they've declined over the years. I addressed my theory on this not to long ago because I've been rereading the entire run (I was gone for a few weeks so I'm only up to #352) but I'm always happy for a chance to give my thoughts again. I think the book stayed very strong with only a few short dry spells from #16 until the loss of Roger Stern in the mid 290s. At that point, not only was the main book great, but so was WCA. Solo/Spotlight was starting up and the future was looking bright. Unfortunately, as was reported in an editorial, Stern began workikng on a direction which he realized wasn't working. The editor wanted to proceed with it. Reading the next few issues makes it clear that the disagreement involved the Marinna storyline and the disolving of the team. The story didn't work particularly well and the new team including Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman, and Gilgamesh is not exactly a fan favorite. The book did recover from this to a degree but seem to flounder and have trouble getting its footing. As I said, I'm at 352 right now and the stories have ranged from very good to not that bad but the magic and consistency that we had come to expect wasn't there. They kept trying new things to try to spice things up and I know I'm fast approaching the Gatherers storyline which my memory tells me was confusing but I'm anxious to see how it holds up next to today's trash. Coming soon after that is the infamous Crossing and Heroes Reborn. I think Busiek really put the team back on the map for a while but when he left, the decline started back. Man, I'd love to see a "What If..." issue focusing on "What if Roger Stern had taken the Avengers in the direction he wanted to" Meanwhile, I'll have to say that even through this decline, I have yet to hit anything that even comes close to being as bad as the last few years have been. Maybe the Crossing was as bad. I'll let you know when I get there.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Aug 6, 2008 15:35:58 GMT -5
And I would totally disagree. I'll go further, and say this present moment in Avengerdom is by far my second favourite era for Earth's Mightiest since I began collecting. From Civil War or so onwards, I have found the Avengers books to be exceptional, although some of the issues of SI are not up to the standard of others. It's below Busiek, certainly, but other than that, yes, I prefer it to anything since I started collecting. That of course comes with the caveat that I started collecting well after the rest of you, so naturally, I have different views. That said, my tastes clearly differ anyway, since my favourite of the Busiek run is one of the generally most looked down upon stories from it. I'd also add that I personally find the Busiek run superior even to the eras of the Kree/Skrull war, Avengers Under Siege and the Korvac Saga, as my personal favourite Avengers run ever, so I certainly wouldn't agree with the decline in quality theory. Just my two cents.
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Post by starfoxxx on Aug 6, 2008 16:09:25 GMT -5
For me personally, the decline in the Avengers started with the "jacket" Avengers @ the #340's. I like Crystal as a character, but I rank her among the worst Avengers ever, also one of the most annoying. Black Knight with a lightsaber, beardless Hercules, an all-yellow Vision, Sersi (blechhhhhh!).....
the series just got worse and worse, the art became horrendous.....
Heroes Reborn was REALLY bad,
then Busiek and Perez saved the franchise with Volume III.
for West Coast Avengers, @ the #70-80's then it got worse and worse....., Living lightning (nuff said, blechhhhhh!)
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Post by dlw66 on Aug 9, 2008 19:58:41 GMT -5
For me personally, the decline in the Avengers started with the "jacket" Avengers @ the #340's. I like Crystal as a character, but I rank her among the worst Avengers ever, also one of the most annoying. Black Knight with a lightsaber, beardless Hercules, an all-yellow Vision, Sersi (blechhhhhh!)..... the series just got worse and worse, the art became horrendous..... Heroes Reborn was REALLY bad, then Busiek and Perez saved the franchise with Volume III. for West Coast Avengers, @ the #70-80's then it got worse and worse....., Living lightning (nuff said, blechhhhhh!) I say "amen" to all but the WCA comment -- I jumped off around the time Master Pandemonium started growing Wanda's kids out of his arms or whatever drivel that was...
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Post by starfoxxx on Aug 9, 2008 21:18:03 GMT -5
Yeah, dlw, I admit I was being liberal with the WCA. The Master Pandemonium nonsense was ish #52, and the dark Scarlet Witch stuff was weak, but Byrne's art made up for the lame stories, for me. Other really lame stuff was the return of the Original Human Torch (what a boring character!), the Tony Stark Iron Man (not as good a fit with the Wackos as Rhodey, IMO), and US Agent (I know he has alot of fans, but he was always a poor man's Guy Gardner, for me).
But...... the upside of WCA #50's and #60's were cool villains (the U-Foes, Magneto, Legion of the Unliving, Pacific Overlords) Byrne and Paul Ryan's art, and the Great lakes Avengers...(another DC rip-off, though).
So technically the WCA started a downward slide around Byrne's run (WCA #42), but it still delivered for me thanks to the above mentioned....
The Night Shift was an awesome idea, they should get their own series (and I'm a big Shroud fan, too)
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Post by dlw66 on Aug 9, 2008 21:54:05 GMT -5
Maybe it was just demons in general coming out of his sleeves... I don't know, but as I said somewhere else recently I dropped WCA early in its run. I did pick it back up when Byrne took over and feel that he generally dropped the ball. What he did to the Vision has been much maligned elsewhere on this board. In regard to the Torch, however, I did think he could have been onto something. While I did not like that he changed the Vision's origin as told by Steve Englehart in Avengers #135, I did think the original Torch had virtually unlimited potential; and an Avengers team (at the time) with Cap, Namor, and the Torch would have been very nostalgiacally fun!
Dead on comment on the US Agent.
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Post by Dr. Hank Pym on Aug 9, 2008 22:07:16 GMT -5
That Master Pandemonium stuff was total garbage, and helped keep me away from the WCA, which I totally loved. Hell, I even sat through the what felt like forever "Lost in Time" storyline, with that dreadful storyline with The Phantom Rider. After that whole "Scarlet Witch is somehow so all powerful that Master Pandemonium was doing things to the team even before she got there, so that she could join the team and get as strong as she was" crap, I started to heavily lose interest. Man, the long arc stories in the WCA mag were freakin' lousy, as compared to the shorter one shot or two parter.
One book I recommend is WCA #17, there's a FANTASTIC sub-plot where Hank Pym is planning to kill himself, and is tying up loose ends with everyone (You're right on Milgrom point, dlw, he draws Jan really cute looking in one panel, and then makes no effort to make her look like a woman in the other panels...) -- in which he is about to pull the trigger when Espirita/Firebird/Whatever saves him. The ending where she saved him was kind of forced and lame (No, I wasn't hoping he'd pull the trigger though!) though.
Both sagas, The Master Pandemonium one and the Lost in Time one were so boring. The Lost in Time one had that Phantom Rider storyline where he drugged Mockingbird and then "Forced her to love him," and it dragged on forever and ever! After a while I was screaming "For god's sake, go away and leave everyone alone! No one cares anymore!"
But alas, like I said, the shorter WCA stories were MUCH better, and totally showed off why the WCA was kicking the crud out of the regular Avengers quality story wise!
I agree that some of the choices for WCA members were odd... The Original Torch, The Living Lightning, Moon Knight (Although I must say, I LOVED his time on the team, and wished he stayed on longer...) amongst others.
I never cared for U.S. Agent either. He was like Hawkeye when Clint felt like being an annoying jerk, times twenty.
One thing I did like was how all of the writers of the WCA always tried to totally redeem Hank after the Trial of Yellowjacket. After his suicide attempt, and that awful short while where he dated Tigra, he was always acting as the brains of the group, thinking up ways to battle villains, showing off his cool smarts, having a normal and stable relationship with Jan again and providing an extra punch of offense when needed!
Englehart's run as the writer was by far the best run. Even though he tried bringing back Mantis for a few issues and even an annual!
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Post by Nutcase65 on Sept 23, 2008 14:45:02 GMT -5
For me the decline in the main line of the core title started (and no I'm not about to say 'with Mantis') with Dr. Druid as an Avenger. The storytelling just stayed mostly downhill for me from there
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Post by Dr. Hank Pym on Sept 28, 2008 12:29:25 GMT -5
For me the decline in the main line of the core title started (and no I'm not about to say 'with Mantis') with Dr. Druid as an Avenger. The storytelling just stayed mostly downhill for me from there I have to agree. Dr. Druid's run on the team (As well as the whole late 80's run of The Avengers,) was one of the worst runs of the book, ever! Like I've said before, it is what made me begin to read only the WCA instead of both mags. Sometimes you also need a great interesting team to keep readers reading your series. I liked Anthony Druid, and felt bad that he was basically given a rip job by the writers in the end of his run, but man what a boring character! I like She-Hulk, but I couldn't stand her during this run, nor did I like Thor! And don't even get me started on the early 90's run, with Sersi , Crystal, Black Knight amongst others. Zzzz...
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Post by bobc on Sept 30, 2008 13:42:05 GMT -5
Wait wait wait--you guys didn't like the Masters of Evil taking over the mansion or when the Avengers went to fight Zeus? I loved that stuff!
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Post by spiderwasp on Sept 30, 2008 20:52:08 GMT -5
Wait wait wait--you guys didn't like the Masters of Evil taking over the mansion or when the Avengers went to fight Zeus? I loved that stuff! Personally, I loved those stories. It was soon after that things declined. The thing for me is that the only time the book got even close to as bad as it is today was with the issues right around the Crossing. I know I'm in the minority but I even liked Sersi, Crystal, Black Knight, etc. There were major problems during that era but I don't think the fault lies in those characters nearly so much as in the overuse of the Kree and the Shiar. For way too long, the book revolved entirely around those aliens . We didn't get a chance to see any good old heroes vs. villains battles and I, for one, just got really tired of hearing about those stupid Skrulls, er I mean Kree and Shiar. I don't deny that those were not glory days for the Avengers but they were so much better than the past couple of years that they seem like masterpieces.
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Post by bobc on Oct 1, 2008 15:43:51 GMT -5
I loved that era when John B was drawing the Avengers again in the 80's! But yeah I agree that after that things went waaaay South. I agree with whoever said that Crystal is a really good character, but didn't seem to work in the Avengers. I loved her in the FF.
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Post by fourcolorfigs on Feb 5, 2009 16:05:43 GMT -5
I very much enjoyed the Gatherers saga of the mid-1990's. I didn't mind the jackets, and Steve Epting's art was nice.
Prior to that (300 -399) and after it the stories were spotty up to when Kurt and George re-launched.
Scott
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Post by Dr. Hank Pym on Feb 10, 2009 3:11:00 GMT -5
betaraybill: I always tried very hard to get into Alpha Flight... but I just never could. I give you kudos for somehow reading through that whole series.
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Post by michidiers on Feb 14, 2009 11:43:09 GMT -5
What a luck! I only have read the Vol. 1 from no. 1 to no. 136 (1-100 comics from a german publisher of the 70th and the no. 100 - 138 as the Us-Essential 5 + 6). And all the storys were pretty fantastic and great. I think I have a lot of issues before me to read until the declined storys according your explantions will begin. So I have to spend a lot of time with the next issues. But I´m familiar with the Vol.II and III. The Vol II is the run after Onslaught. And storys of the Vol II (heroes reborn) are in my opinion so worse, that I selled the whole run. It was in my opinion the lowest point in the history of the Avengers yet. But I must say that I even didn´t read the no 137 - 402!
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Post by michidiers on Feb 15, 2009 13:07:47 GMT -5
Yes, I hope so. Momentary I ´m reading the issue 137 of my essential. A great issue about the reorganisation of the Avengers after the wedding of Mantis with the Cotati-"tree and the wedding of Wanda with Vision. (Vision on one panel with a swimming-short ;D) And the first kontact of the Beast with the Avengers!
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Post by ultron69 on May 8, 2009 7:38:23 GMT -5
I think things can be summed up thusly: Everything old rocks, everything new sucks. :-)
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