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Post by scottharris on Aug 11, 2008 23:57:36 GMT -5
When I have a chance I'll post the whole letter and response.
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Post by scottharris on Aug 12, 2008 0:52:01 GMT -5
The Prize is... EARTH! Strange Tales #137 I just got this comic a few months ago. One thing I like to do is lowball lots of assorted comics on ebay. People are sometimes hesitant to bid on lots of comics from a bunch of random titles, especially if the seller doesn't actually list all the comics in the lot. in this case, I got a pile of 20 12-20 cent Marvels and DC for around $25. My main interest was two of the O'Neil/Adams Green Lantern/Green Arrow issues, which actually were in pretty good shape and certainly would have cost me as much as the whole lot in a comic store. The lot also included a solid copy of Strange Tales #128, with the Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch story from just before Avengers #16. So I was very happy with that particular lot. Sadly, I sold off some of the back issues which would have been nice to review for this (the lot included the Showcase premiere of the Inferior Five), but I held onto this copy of Strange Tales #137, in part because it is totally wrecked and really couldn't sell it anyway. Not too wrecked to read, though. This is a relatively early 12 cent Marvel, which you can see from the font of the price as well as the fact that the issue number is floating around in its own little box instead of included in the bigger corner box. I prefer this 12 cent design to the later one which put the price and issue number both in the corner box. This is also during a period when Marvel seemed to use a lot of browns and greys and blacks and greytones for their covers and backgrounds, which I think makes them look pretty muddy and boring. Take a look at the cover of Avengers #36 for another example of this. In particular, I think this cover looks kind of dark and mundane. The giant shadowy figure should be menacing, but it's a little indistinct; if the background were white or something, maybe that silhouette would pop off the page more. This is the third issue of the SHIELD series. It's interesting to note that during the time when the Human Torch and Thing were splitting the book with Dr. Strange, they were always the main cover image, with Strange usually given a smaller blurb or image. When SHIELD took over for Torch, SHIELD immediately became the cover series as well, and Strange was again shoved into second banana role. Only when editorial implemented the alternating cover policy -- which also went into effect for TTA and ToS -- did Strange finally get his own covers. As popular as Strange has been as a character, he's never really been a huge hit, and it seems that SHIELD either was instantly more popular or that editorial assumed they would be. The SHIELD story leads off this issue, which is from October of 1965. Stan has the writing chores, with layouts by Kirby and finished art from John Severin. I've grown to like Severin's work from his later work on Sgt. Fury. This story picks up from the first two issues, which introdued the menace of Hydra to the Marvel Universe. The splash page is a cool Kirby composition with a big room filled with machines and people and a giant viewscreen showing Fury's face as he directs everyone to drop what they're doing to focus on the threat of Hydra. Fury is then rushed to R+D where he meets with... Q, apparently. The James Bond inspiration for the series is blatant here, as this guy (who works for Tony Stark) gives Fury a bunch of grade-Z spy gadgets and shows them how they work. This includes a periscope hat, a radio transmitting tie that self-destructs, and an explosive shirt. Q would laugh this guy into oblivion. He then tries on a new suit, when suddenly the mirrors open and a bunch of dudes with machine guns jump out and blast him. Luckily, the suit is made of "flexible steel" and is completely bulletproof. That could come in handy I would think. I also don't remember any mention of this in later issues; the fact that Fury's clothes are bullet proof seems like it could be kind of important in a lot of these later spy stories. They probably forgot. The story then cuts away to the Balkans and the real Bond espionage kicks in. and... it's actually pretty sweet. A Hydra agent has stolen microfilm from Hydra and is going to turn it over to SHIELD at a train station. Just as he reaches the rendezvous point, another Hydra guy, in disguise, shoots him. However, he's able to throw the microfilm to his contact, a SHIELD agent who is on a train. The train pulls out, but the agent knows that Hydra will soon be there, so he radios in for help. Sure enough, a helicopter appears and Hydra agents swarm out of it and onto the roof of the train. They then start a cabin by cabin search. The radio call has been answered, though, as a sports car pulls up beside the train and the agent throws the microfilm to the passenger. The car speeds off just as Hydra burst into the agent's cabin. There's a really cool panel here where the agent is pulling a gun with the line "Come in, gentlemen! I've been expecting you!" and the story cuts away to follow the microfilm. I really like this, as it keeps the action flowing; suggesting all the action not being shown seems to increase the pace. It's a really nice sequence. And it's not over. The car is chased by a Ferrari, so the guys in the car drive it right into the ocean and switch to "Marine-Drive", which turns the car into a submarine. Unfortunately, Hydra has it's own submarine, and they intercept the SHIELD agents. Surrounded by Hydra goons, the agents hit the self-destruct button and blow themselves up! Well, I wasn't expecting that. The story then cuts back to Fury, who is watching the action on a monitor with Sgt. Fury holdovers Dum Dum and Gabe. They are less than pleased that their agents are dead and the vital microfilm has been lost. Turns out that the microfilm has the location of Hydra's launch site, where they about to send the dreaded Betatron Bomb into orbit, which will effectively give them control over the entire planet. Well, we can't let that happen, so the three jump in a secret high speed subway car which races them to the SHIELD airport, where they then get on the IBP -- the Intercontinental Ballistics Blane, which is a plane made out of a rocket that can fly at speeds of 5,000 miles per hour by going into the high atmosphere where there is no wind resistance. That almost sounds... surprisingly plausible. Thus they fly towards the Baltics to search for the missile sight. Meanwhile, we cut away again to a board meeting. Some stuff happens that seems pointless, but is probably setting up a future issue. Anyway, after the board meeting, someone slips into the meeting room -- it's the Supreme Hydra. He goes through a secret passage where he meets some flunkies who give him his pet panther. Nice, I should get me one of them. Then he makes a little speech and retires to his office. A moment later, Agent G enters the room and takes off her Hydra mask to reveal a young blonde -- she's the Supreme Hydra's daughter. He is reveling in the fact that he's about to launch his missile and control the world and says that he's doing it all for her. She says she wants none of it and just wants to be a normal girl, but as you might expect, he ignores this. Any time anyone says that they just want a normal life, you know they aren't going to get it. With a gleeful speech, he hits the button and launches the Betatron Bomb. And... THE END! Next up is Dr. Strange. The credits list Stan as writer, but they also list Ditko as plotter as well as artist. Interesting that he gets the plotter credit here as opposed to other stories using the Marvel Method. Stan must have trusted him in order to give up even the basic plotting part of that collaboration. It appears we're in the middle of the first Eternity storyline, because he's mentioned a couple times and Strange doesn't know who or what Eternity is. The Ancient One is in a coma and only information about Eternity can save him, but only he knows about Eternity, so... that's a problem. Strange, however, has a cunning plan: he'll use magic. Good one! I didn't expect that. Anyhow, he's going to use some spells to read the Ancient ONe's mind and get the info that way. However, even in a coma, the Ancient One is still the man, and he has prepared mystic defenses to keep people from reading his mind. Thus Strange continues to try to get into his brain and keeps getting repelled by mind traps. Some of the art here is kind of cool. I certainly respect Ditko's art -- his stuff on Spider-Man was compelling -- but I've never been a big fan of it to be honest. Imaginative storytelling, but Ioften don't care for the actual drawings that much. There are exceptions, though, and this section is pretty nice. Anyway, finally Strange is able to get the Ancient One to understand that it's not an attack, but an attempt to help. The Ancient One then beams the information into Strange's brain. Strange leaves Ancient One in the care of a servant whom he addresses as "faithful one" and who looks an awful lot like Wong. Wiki says that Wong was mentioned in #110 but didn't appear until #147; if this isn't Wong, it... man, it looks like Wong to me. It's Wong, I just declared it to be true. Once he's clear of everyone, Strange casts a spell and the Eye of Agamotto expands to huge size, creating a portal that will bring Strange to Eternity. He jumps through it, and a split second later Baron Mordo appears in hot pursuit. He's too late though, because this is... THE END! Next issue: "Dr. Strange finds Eternity!" There are only a couple of letters here; one of them mentions that #134 has a Kang appearance in it, which: it does? That would be at the same time as Avengers #18. I've never heard of this appearance; anyone have any info on it? [edit: according to sources online, Thing and Torch fought Kang in ancient Camelot, and Merlin was somehow involved. Huh. I'll have to pick this issue up.) My grade: The SHIELD story gets an A from me. It was exciting and well paced. Dr. Strange gets a B; not much happened, really, but it was solid and the art was good, plus it was just one chapter in an obviously epic storyline. The cover gets a D, though.
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Post by Dr. Hank Pym on Aug 12, 2008 17:58:13 GMT -5
Hey dlw66, from one teacher to another: I couldn't have said it any better myself! I bought the above issue of Strange Tales for $7 in a local comic shop weeks ago, it was definitely worth the price. The Fury story was great, but I do agree in that the Dr. Strange story was more than just a little odd. A few pages were dedicated to the good Doctor trying to get past the mental barrier the Ancient One had put up -- I'm sure new readers were confused by what was going on! I agree that the visuals were great -- I felt like I was watching an old Sci-Fi show! Wiki is not always correct (I find myself correcting the articles more than a few times on there!) so take the Wong mention with a grain of salt. That was DEFINITELY Wong in that issue you recapped. I'd personally love to see you recap that Strange Tales with Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch, if you ever do get the time, scottharris. Don't worry if you don't have time to do it.
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Post by scottharris on Aug 12, 2008 19:24:37 GMT -5
I'd personally love to see you recap that Strange Tales with Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch, if you ever do get the time, scottharris. Don't worry if you don't have time to do it. Sure, I can do this at some point. Actually, if anyone has any requests for series or stories or genres or anything that you want reviewed, let me know. I've probably got another couple weeks worth of unread stuff to review, but after that, barring new ebay lots, I'll have to dip into my collection for stuff. So if anyone has requests, let's hear them.
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Post by scottharris on Aug 12, 2008 19:34:11 GMT -5
Okay, as promised, here's the whole letter and response from Sgt. Fury #35:
Gentlemen:
I read your latest effort under the banner of SGT. FURY AND HIS HOWLING COMMANDOS. However, I feel that I must protest the depiction of all German soldiers as cowards or bullies. Many millions of brave German soldiers, who died for their country as did Americans, British, and others, should not be abused merely because their nation committed the cardinal sin of losing the war. As a former officer in the S. S., I was also a Nazi and am forced to admit that I was a willing member of that party. However, you must remember that, at the time, news censorship was very restrictive, and the shocking and sickening acts of brutality were complete surprises to me as well as to many other Germans. I had the unfortunate luck to encounter some of the men you depict shortly before the invasion of France in 1944. Your rendering of Sgt. Fury and his Neanderthal types is almost catholic in its correctness. They were, indeed, the elite -- the very best you had to offer. I started reading your publication because of both my interest in your characterizations and my desire to improve my usage of English context (American style). One point: The Gestapo (short for Geheimnis Staats Polizei, or Secret State Police) was neither a military nor a quasi-military organization as you indicate, Its members did not wear uniforms, but dressed in civilian clothing, as do those in the U. S. Secret Service. Their main objective was the capture of saboteurs and subversive elements. I hope you will correct this oversight. However, gentlemen, in all fairness to you, I must give you plaudits in your artwork, story line, and lettering, all of which are very commendable. (Name and address withheld by request)
In all fairness, we felt we should print this letter, which we recently received, although we prefer to present it without any editorial comment. The writer asked that we omit his name and address.
In the lettercolumn in issue #39, which dealt with this issue, there was at least one letter supporting this writer, though in #40 there was an excellent rebuttal sent in by another fan.
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Post by scottharris on Aug 12, 2008 23:33:18 GMT -5
It's midnight... The WITCHING HOUR! (#31) Okay, let's see what we have here. This is from the meat of DC's 20 cent era, during their best 20 cent design. It also features a cool logo, a semi-frame cover and a black background. The image is creepy without busting the code. I approve of this cover. very nicely done. In general, and from the tiny sample size we've looked at, I get the idea that DC's horror books looked better -- better design and creepier artwork -- than Marvels, but the stories haven't been as good. Let's find out if this issue of Witching Hour holds true to that, shall we? This issue is from June of 1973 and it starts off with a disconcerting and disjointed frame story. Three witches who appear to have wandered out of an issue of Archie are going to the park for a picnic so they can tell ghost stories. One of them, a busty blonde, appears to the the hostess of The Witching Hour; all the DC horror books had hosts to introduce the stories, the most famous being Cain and Abel. I like the conceit, but this page of the hostesses bantering is pretty lame. So, our first story finally starts, it's called "Red is Dead" and it's by Carl Wessler with art from Alex Nino. This is one of the reasons I think the DC horror books continued to perform well through the 70's while Marvel's foray into horror ended quickly: the influx of Filipino and South American artists. DC brought a bunch of these guys aboard to draw their horror and fantasy titles in the early seventies, and their flowing, moody work really works for the stories much better than the cleaner and more iconic work turned in by American superhero artists. It made the DC titles really look sharp even when the stories were lame. Speaking of which: Orville is an annoying nerd who happens to own a book of black magic that has been passed down through his family. His mom recently died and he got a new step-mom: a saucy wench named Doreen. They hate each other, though he does so openly and she pretends to care about him. One day, he shows her his book of black magic and says that he's putting curses on random people and killing them off. Doreen decides to use this as a way to get her husband to have Orville committed. So, she sneakily manipulates the dad into finally deciding to get Orville committed to an institution. Orville is tired of all this and puts a curse on Doreen, who drops dead. Orville, however, isn't around when it happens, and actually doesn't believe in black magic anyway; he was just kidding when he cursed Doreen, even. So instead, he destroys the book because "it could be dangerous if it fell into the wrong hands". Now, I don't know why the book would be dangerous if he doesn't believe in black magic, but we don't find out, because the story ends here. Bleh. There was a distinct lack of a story arc in this -- it just was a bunch of scenes that ended. The big climax wasn't climactic. I can see what they were going for, but the execution was just really flat. Moving on, we have our second story, this time being introduced by an old crone, who was also one of the three witches in the intro page. Oh, I get it. They each introduce one of the stories. Whew, that's a load off my mind. This one is called "A Badge of Courage!" and it's by Bill Dennehy with art from John Calnan. Never heard of either of these guys. Anyway, a beautiful woman is making out with a guy named Leonardo in an alley way when a guy with a knife shows up. Run, Kate Winslet, run! Turns out she's his assistant and he's a knife thrower and they're about to go on stage. Okay, fine. He's also insanely jealous of Leonardo. As they do their routine, she reveals that he proposed and she said yes. He angrily heaves a knife at her... ...and thunks her in the face. Next thing you know, they're at the hospital and the knife guy says that he wasn't aiming for her and he never misses so he doesn't know how it could have hit her in the face. She reveals that she moved her head on purpose to get hit by the knife. Her logic is that it will ruin his career because he'll now be too afraid of hitting someone to ever throw knives again. He skulks out and Leonardo shows up. They remove the bandages, and sure enough, she's got a giant hideous scar on her face. Leonardo doesn't care, though, because "it's not ugly or gruesome but a beauty mark -- your badge of courage!" Uh. For what, exactly? For being brave enough to act totally nuts? So the guy was upset at her for loving someone else -- so what? He purposely missed her with the knife. That being the case, I don't see what the big deal is. Now she's got a disfigurement and she's unemployed, all to get revenge on someone who... didn't do anything? You can have her, Leonardo. Geez. Anyhoo. Next is a one page story called "Hold Hands -- And Die". Some people are at a psychic. One of them thinks she's a fake and resents being dragged to a seance when he's feeling so ill. Eventually something materializes and his wife is shocked to see her husband's face. Turns out he died during the seance and now has proof that she's not a fraud at all. Um... that's not too bad for one page, actually. This is credited to someone named "B Gernale". Last up is a story introduced by the third witch, who is fat and dumpy. At last, a realistic witch. This story is called "The Scent of Death". Seems that in Kentucky, there's a giant kid who is mute and apparently an idiot. His dad is kind of a jerk, so this kid doesn't have a name and is just called "boy". Boy also has a cowbell tied around his neck so everyone knows where he is. One night, while dad is yelling about their landlord, the sheriff shows up to say that the landlord has been killed and the killer was seen running towards this house. Dad puts 2 and 2 together and immediately blames Boy, whom he wants to get rid of anyway for being a giant mouth to feed. Boy runs off, into town, and a crowd gathers while Boy climbs to the top of the church steeple. One town guy decides to go up and get him. Turns out this guy was the real killer and Boy was a witness, so the guy framed him since Boy can't speak to defend himself. Suddenly, Boy grabs the guy and climbs back to the ground. There, a local schoolteacher deduces that the guy is the killer and that even though it was pitch black, Boy recognized him by his distinctive smell, because Boy must have developed super-smell to compensate for being unable to talk. The sheriff immediately agrees that this must be the case, lets Boy go and arrests the other guy. Dad is so happy, he declares that he's going to give Boy a name after all. That makes so little sense I feel like I myself am becoming dumb and mute just for reading it. Talk about a huge leap in logic for the entire town to arrive at simultaneously. Wow. This story makes so little sense I suspect it was written by Gerry Conway. There's no story credit, though, other than the splash page being signed by artist Art Saaf. The lettercolumn is titled "Witch-ful Thinking", which is a nice touch, and contains letters form a bunch of freaks who talk about prophecies and fortunetellers and one guy who goes on and on about The Wiccan Way and how true witches are good people and he gets angry when people say bad things about witches. He even signs his letter "Raymond W. Clark, Witch". Oh, get over yourself you fruitloop. Interestingly, the lettercolumn is only one page and there's no Direct Currents. I know that originally, lettercolumns were introduced to satisfy a postal rule that comics had to include at least two pages of text in order to receive the proper classification for bulk mailing. Usually in DC's of this era, I find one page of letters and one page of Direct Currents, but... huh. Perhaps by 1973 this requirement had been lifted, I don't know. My grade: First story gets a C but only because the art was decent; second story gets a C- for making even less sense than the first story. Last story gets a D for being one of the dumbest things ever put to paper. Even the frame story with the witches gets a D for being awkwardly written and drawn. The one page filler with the seance gets a B though, for being brief enough to not suck. Sure enough, DC has put together another horror title that looks good but reads lame.
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Post by dlw66 on Aug 13, 2008 9:04:13 GMT -5
Scott --
Thanks for taking the time to type that letter (above) in full. I appreciate that.
Upon inspection, it looks sincere enough, and I'll retract my supposition that editorial might have written it. It does not surprise me that the writer withheld his name and address (I was really curious to see how or if that would appear -- thanks for including that!!!), as after the war the International Military Tribunal that administered the Nuremberg Trials made even membership in such organizations as the SS, the SD, the Gestapo, et al. retroactively illegal.
I am still not, however, buying his line about atrocities and his "Woe is me" sentiments. When research on the Holocaust shows that in occupied areas indiginous collaborators outnumbered Germans sometimes 6 to 1, it's tough to believe that there were SO many people who knew nothing. Not buying it.
Anyone else find it strange that a man who would at this time have been 50-ish would start reading comics, even war comics??
At any rate, again a kudo to you, Scott. And keep these reviews coming!
Doug
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Post by sharkar on Aug 13, 2008 21:50:07 GMT -5
Kudos to you, too, Doug, for your illuminating posts on an important topic. ...Given the debate you've brought to light, maybe this was a case where Stan and Roy sought to somehow justify what they were doing in the pages of Sgt. Fury...As to the SS and Wehrmacht -- if they were in the East, they knew about the atrocities. No question. Stationed in the West -- maybe not. ...It does not surprise me that the writer withheld his name and address (I was really curious to see how or if that would appear -- thanks for including that!!!), as after the war the International Military Tribunal that administered the Nuremberg Trials made even membership in such organizations as the SS, the SD, the Gestapo, et al. retroactively illegal. Upon inspection, it looks sincere enough, and I'll retract my supposition that editorial might have written it. I agree, the letter seems legitimate. And I think Stan/Marvel's "non-response" is additional proof that it's for real. Anyone else find it strange that a man who would at this time have been 50-ish would start reading comics, even war comics?? I don't find it hard to believe... he mentions he was trying to improve his command of English...so yeah, I can see him picking up a comic (and not a stuffy book on grammar) to help him do that (I've read that some foreign actors claim they learned English by watching American sitcoms, to learn the vernacular). And back in the Golden Age, war comics were very popular (with males and military personnel anyway), so perhaps he'd been exposed to some war comics many years earlier...and in the 1960s he gravitated toward a genre he was familiar with. Or the cover or title attracted his attention, or someone (knowing his background) told him to check it out. This is all just speculation on my part... But I have to hand it to Marvel for publishing this letter--I think it took guts.
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Post by sharkar on Aug 13, 2008 22:40:48 GMT -5
Strange Tales #137 Next up is Dr. Strange. The credits list Stan as writer, but they also list Ditko as plotter as well as artist. Interesting that he gets the plotter credit here as opposed to other stories using the Marvel Method. Stan must have trusted him in order to give up even the basic plotting part of that collaboration. IMO Stan didn't really give up anything. As we know, he would basically describe a bare bones "idea" to Ditko (and Kirby) and they took it from there. Stan would later on add the dialogue, captions, etc. He'd worked like this with the two of them (on the monster/horror/sci fi comics of the mid-late 50s), before the 1961 dawn of the Marvel Age. When Marvel started to become popular, both pencilers felt they were plotting the stories (FF, Spidey, Thor, Strange, etc.) and should receive credit for doing so. They also wanted percentages from any marketing of the characters (something I've read Martin Goodman had promised them). And it's pretty well known that as Marvel prospered, Ditko and Kirby grew increasingly unhappy about the changes Stan would make while scripting their work; they felt his dialogue and captions really changed their stories for the worse and subverted any "messages" they were trying to convey (see practically any reference material about Ditko and/or Kirby for specifics.) Now Ditko was far less passive and reticent than Kirby (who had a wife and kids to support) so Steve didn't hesitate to complain. Ditko was a valuable commodity--he penciled and inked Spidey, after all!-- so Stan tried to appease him with the plotter credit on their collaborations. But even so, Stan and Ditko continued to butt heads; it's been said they stopped speaking to each other at some point when Ditko was at Marvel. So, despite the plotter credit--Ditko left anyway. Jack internalized a lot...but later on, with the security of a DC contract, he too left (he would return...).
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Post by sharkar on Aug 13, 2008 23:48:14 GMT -5
Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD #7 This is during the brief era when Marvel began just printing letters without any editorial response to them, which isn't nearly as fun. Sure, the letters are still just as weird, but without Stan or Roy trying to make sense of them, it's just not the same. This decision may have been due in part to the fact that "Gal Friday" Flo Steinberg left Marvel in 1968 and she had worked on the letter columns (reading the letters; showing them to Stan/Roy; helping to impart a consistent "voice" to the answers; and typing the letters up!). IIRC the Bullpen Bulletin announcing her departure says she's off to greener pastures and wishes her well, but I read a few years ago she left because Martin Goodman wouldn't give her a raise.
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Post by sharkar on Aug 14, 2008 0:13:24 GMT -5
This issue came out at the same time as Thor #158, Cap #108, Avengers #58 and Iron Man, Captain Marvel, Sub-Mariner and Captain Savage #8. So why is it only on #7? Hmm. Form the lettercolumn I gathered that #4 was a surprise fill-in issue, so maybe there was a production delay. There was no problem... Nick Fury #7 was contemporaneous with the other issues you list. In late 1967-1968, when Marvel expanded, they did so in stages: Actual month November 1967:Captain Savage #1 cover date January 1968 (bi-monthly) Actual month January 1968: Captain America #100 cover date April 1968 (continues numbering from Tales of Suspense) Hulk #102 cover date April 1968 (continues numbering from Tales to Astonish)Iron Man and Sub-Mariner #1 cover date April 1968 (one-shot) Actual month February 1968:Sub-Mariner #1 cover date May 1968 Iron Man #1 cover date May 1968 Captain Marvel #1 cover date May 1968 Actual month March 1968: Now we get to the month in which Nick and Strange split up...a month after Captain Marvel #1, Subby #1 and Iron Man #1. Dr. Strange #169 cover date June 1968 (continues numbering from Strange Tales) Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD #1 cover date June 1968 So, Nick Fury#7 was released the same time as the other books mentioned, namely: Thor #158, Captain America #108, Avengers #58, Iron Man #8, Captain Marvel #8, Sub-Mariner #8, and Captain Savage #8 (which went monthly with issue #4). On a related note: While Nick Fury #7 and the others listed in the preceding paragraph were all on sale in September 1968, their cover dates differed: Avengers #58, Thor #158 and Captain Savage #8 were cover dated November 1968...while Subby #8, Iron Man #8, Captain America #108, Captain Marvel #8, and Nick Fury #7were all cover dated December 1968. Marvel standardized most of the cover dates in for November 1971 (at least for the monthly books); the cover dates for books like the Avengers, Thor and Daredevil were moved ahead a month. So for example, Avengers #92 (released in July 1971) was cover dated September 1971...but a month later in August 1971, #93 (the 25 cent issue) was released and was cover dated November 1971. There was no "October 1971" (cover date) Avengers issue. EDIT: last paragraph, clarified Nov 1971 was the cover date and not the actual release date
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Post by Dr. Hank Pym on Aug 14, 2008 1:51:19 GMT -5
When research on the Holocaust shows that in occupied areas indiginous collaborators outnumbered Germans sometimes 6 to 1, it's tough to believe that there were SO many people who knew nothing. Not buying it. Doug Doug: While I agree with you that it seems oddly dubious that some people would not realize what's going on, I have to point out that it's not as hard to brainwash a large group of people into believing something is not/hasn't happened as you may think it is, with China-post "June 4th Incident" in Tiananmen Square being the ultimate proof. sharkar: Great very informative posts as usual, I always learn something new when you post your inside scoop information. scottharris: I'd love to see the issue 40 rebuttal... it, as I've stated before, shows off the mindset of most citizens of comicdom in the 60's. Was the response very xenophobic? Keep up the FANTASTIC work!
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Post by scottharris on Aug 14, 2008 2:53:29 GMT -5
Strange Tales #137 Next up is Dr. Strange. The credits list Stan as writer, but they also list Ditko as plotter as well as artist. Interesting that he gets the plotter credit here as opposed to other stories using the Marvel Method. Stan must have trusted him in order to give up even the basic plotting part of that collaboration. IMO Stan didn't really give up anything. As we know, he would basically describe a bare bones "idea" to Ditko (and Kirby) and they took it from there. Stan would later on add the dialogue, captions, etc. He'd worked like this with the two of them (on the monster/horror/sci fi comics of the mid-late 50s), before the 1961 dawn of the Marvel Age. Yeah, I should have been more clear what I meant, though it's really hard to tell just who was doing what at that time. The distinction I was making was between Stan giving Ditko even a vague idea to work from or Ditko coming up with the whole thing himself and then giving it to Stan to script, which to me is what Ditko getting the plotting credit implies. However, there may indeed have been no actual difference in the creative process given how involved Ditko and Kirby both were in their books. I think the main reason this division of credit is so difficult is (besides the fact that they were mostly collaborations) the fact that Stan was not just the writer but also the editor in chief. Even on stories where he didn't directly plot the story, he would have ended up giving the go ahead as editor to a proposed plot idea. So on the one hand we might have Stan and an artist getting together and coming up with a plot between the two of them; and on the other we have an artist approaching Stan with an idea and him approving it; and in both cases Stan would do the scripting; so the division of labor particularly as it applies to Stan's writing contributions vs. his editing role would be extremely muddied. In what situations do his editorial decisions about a story become actual plotting? I'm not sure if any of you had the chance to see In Search of Steve Ditko, but it had some very interesting insight about this. In Search of Steve Ditko was a British television production about a journalist over there who is an obsessive Steve Ditko fan. In the special he gets together with Neil Gaiman and Alan Moore and the three of them basically talk all day about how awesome Ditko is and break down the history of his career. At the end of the documentary, the journalist flies to New York City to try and find Ditko, who apparently is a famous recluse. He does locate him, but Ditko refuses to meet him. However, he can't take no for an answer, so he goes up to Ditko's office and ends up talking to him for about 15 minutes. However, Ditko still refuses to appear on camera. Besides a lot of really interesting Ditko discussion, though, there's always one person who is never shy about appearing on camera: Stan Lee. The reporter interviews Stan and asks him about the rift between Stan and Ditko, specifically about the credit for Spider-man and the creation of Spider-man. Stan basically says that he knows it's really important to Ditko, so he's willing to let Ditko take credit for it; and he wrote a letter to Ditko saying this, and saying that if anyone questions Ditko's creation of Spider-man, he can show that person Stan's letter as proof that Ditko was the creator. The really interesting thing, though, is that... it's clear Stan doesn't actually believe that Ditko is the creator of Spider-man. Rather, he just feels really bad about the whole mess and would rather take the high road and let Ditko have whatever credit he wants. But when pressed by the reporter, he admits that, as far as he's concerned, he created Spider-man. The reporter (who, again, is a major Ditko fanatic) asks Stan about the role of the artist in the creation. He basically says, even if you came up with the idea of a guy called Spider-man, Ditko's work added the costume and the powers and the secret identity -- all the things that makes him Spider-man. So he asks, isn't it true that if Ditko hadn't be a co-creator it wouldn't have been Spider-man? So if he had given the assignment to another artist, it may have been a failure instead of Spider-man. Stan's response is that had that been the case, it simply would have meant that Stan had created a failed character. The reporter is basically like, well, okay then. For me, this was a critical insight into the whole question of credit, or Stan taking credit for things that artists did and everything. And it's really because Stan is taking credit not as Stan the writer, but as Stan the editor. In fact, from what I understand, Stan did in fact assign Spider-man to another artist before Ditko -- he gave it to Jack Kirby. Kirby turned in a story for Amazing Fantasy #15 that had a much more typically heroic version of Spider-man that was pretty much just a reworking of Kirby's old character The Fly. At this point, Ditko supposedly pointed out to Stan the similarities between the two characters so Stan, wanting to avoid possible litigation, gave the assignment to Ditko and asked him to re-imagine the character. And thus the real Spider-man we all know was created. From Stan's point of view, then, you can see how his editorial decisions -- deciding which artist would work best with which concept, character or title -- would be just as vital as the actual writing or scripting. For him, in a very real way, even the work the artists did was in some part due to his own editorial decision to place the artist in that situation. Thus the question of who deserves credit for creating a character would be a pretty simple one -- Stan does, because he not only had the idea, he decided which artist would have the proper skills and creativity to pull it off. Sometimes he was wrong and the idea failed; other times he was right and it was a hit. As writer and editor of every title the company put out, he was the Man. That's not to say I personally agree with this entirely, but I think it's true of why Stan has taken credit for so much of the success of early Marvel -- because he believes, on this basis, that he is truly entitled to it. He's not being a glory hog or mean spirited as some people have portrayed him in recent years; he's just saying that as the editor in chief, he could hire any artist he wanted to do his stories, and so when he hired the right one, it was his success. I do feel like in recent years people who are trying to get Kirby and Ditko their due have gone too far the other direction (and I don't mean anyone on these boards). I don't feel like a lot of people are giving Stan enough credit nowadays, as people hasten to attribute ideas and stories to Ditko or Kirby or whoever else the artist was. There's no question that Ditko was the guiding hand on Spider-man and Dr. Strange or that Kirby did a lot of plotting and idea work on Fantastic Four, but Stan still rightly deserves, in my opinion, a lot of credit as well. p.s. The video of this doesn't appear to be available online anymore, though it's possible you can torrent it. This is an article about the documentary written by the journalist who produced it: www.guardian.co.uk/books/2007/sep/14/art.usa
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Post by scottharris on Aug 14, 2008 2:57:02 GMT -5
I picked up a couple more Sgt. Fury issues I was missing and just had to post about #17. The gang is in an African jungle and comes across a tribe of natives who have fallen under the sway of the Nazis. The natives are debating what to do, when suddenly an unfamiliar witch doctor comes out of nowhere.
Before you can even finish thinking "No, Stan, don't do it!", sure enough, you realize it's the African-American Howler Gabe. Where he got the witch doctor outfit, I have no idea. But to impress the natives with his awesome power, he does... the jitterbug, then begins doing magic tricks, such as reaching behind a guys ear and pulling out a gold ring with a Masonic seal on it! Awed by these amazing displays, the tribesmen began to reconsider their allegiance to the Nazis.
I would have said you can't make this stuff up, but someone actually did. Holy cow.
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Post by scottharris on Aug 14, 2008 3:41:23 GMT -5
In the era of the Super Rich! OMAC #2 So, this is an interesting comic. You're probably somewhat familiar with the OMAC concept from the Infinite Crisis event DC put out a few years ago. Now, these back issues always had some value, thanks to the fact that the original series was written and drawn by Jack Kirby, but when Crisis came out there was a jump in list value as OMAC became the hot thing. Well, I'm here to tell you that finding OMAC back issues in high grade is not all that difficult. The fact is that this series never sold very well, and was canceled pretty quickly (8 issues if memory serves) and this means that a lot of issues of OMAC were never sold to begin with. I have in my possession no fewer than 8 VF/NM copies of OMAC #1, each of which has a book value of around $35. And I'm quite sure that none of them have ever even been opened, much less read; I bought them all at once, in a pile, from a local comic store during a blowout sale and paid like a quarter each for them and it was obvious just from looking at them that they were surplus, unsold copies. It's hard to describe if you haven't seen this, but trust me, when you find a group of comics in quantity like this, you can just tell. This, though, is issue #2, from November of 1974, again by Kirby with inking from D. Bruce Berry. The cover is interesting -- I like the layout, but man, they must have had some sort of bargain deal on copywriting this month, because man, that is a ton of text. Look how tiny the actual image is compared to the cover as a whole! Late 20 cent era with the sunburst is okay. Overall, sort of an interesting composition, but it's way too wordy to work. The story starts with OMAC -- the One Man Army Corps -- trying to enter a city. However, the super rich has rented out the entire city for the evening, and thus he's not allowed to enter without an invitation to the rich people's city-wide costume party. This doesn't sit well with OMAC, who goes apehouse and clocks all the guards. Why he needs to get into the city bad enough to attack law enforcement, I have no idea, since they don't bother explaining it. After busting their chops, though, some dudes in a car tool up and offer him a ride into town. Once there, though, they drop him off and as he wanders away they make some threatening conversation with each other and pull out guns. Oh noes! Look out, OMAC! Not knowing the danger, OMAC heads blindly into chapter two, where we finally find out why he's going to town: he's looking for Professor Myron Forest. who can -- and immediately does -- explain to OMAC who and what OMAC is. And this is interesting -- the backstory is essentially exactly the same as the OMAC stuff from Infinite Crisis. Forest has developed an omnipotent satellite called Brother Eye, which has been guiding OMAC. OMAC used to be a normal person until he was suddenly turned into OMAC by Brother Eye "by remote-controlled hormone surgery -- from space!" Yep, exactly how Brother Eye zapped normal people in Infinite Crisis and turned them into OMACs. Forest explains that OMAC's job is to contain conflicts before they grow to the proportion where armies need to get involved, because armies means war and war = bad. OMAC's main concern is the activities of the richest of the super rich, a jerk named Mister Big. Apparently he's trying to prevent Mister Big from recording "To Be With You." Uh-oh. The guys who gave OMAC a ride into town show up -- and they work for Mr. Big. They followed OMAC so they could find the location of the secret OMAC project and destroy it. And... they do a pretty good job. They use lasers to kill Forest, then when OMAC tries to stop them, their suits let off electric shocks that knock him out. And then they kill him. No, actually, they run away. Well, that makes no sense at all. They are trying to destroy OMAC, so they knock him out and while he's unconscious they run away? Jack, Jack, Jack... what are you doing? Anyway, Brother Eye warns OMAC that they have to "get Mister Big's men before they get us" which, no, apparently you don't. He then tells oMAC that he will channel power through OMAC's giant belt. OMAC leaves, to hunt the killers, and Brother Eye zaps the base with a solar ray and melts it so that Big can't get a hold of any of the technology. Meanwhile, Mister Big is throwing his giant, citywide bash, which is really just a cover for his efforts to destroy OMAC. His goons show up and report that OMAC was too strong for them, even though... they kicked his butt hardcore. Big sends out an APB, and soon enough, some of his guys floating around in some hot air balloons see OMAC and try to kill him with a spear-gun. That fails, so the killers from earlier in the issue show up with a horde of goons and they pigpile onto OMAC. Then they all jump off just in time for one of them to shoot OMAC in the chest with a pistol... yes, this time they kill him. Good. They then take the body to Mister Big, who inspects and and... yes, still dead. Sweet. However, just then, the Mayor shows up with a bunch of "Peace Agents", who are guys in bathrobes with stockings pulled over their faces. They don't carry weapons, though, so Big just orders his men to waste them all. Suddenly, though, a bolt of energy knocks all the bad guys out. Then we get the payoff; Brohter Eye actually dissolved the bullet with an invisible laser; beamed down genetic alterations to OMAC to simulate a wound; and disguised his life functions so he appeared dead even to a doctor. All that done, he now reverses all of it an OMAC sits up. It's.... ALIVE!!! Brother Eye also used his powers to record all of Mister Big's plans, so just like that, Big and his men are off to jail. Which... you know, if Eye could do all that, what the heck does he need OMAC for anyway? Just start off with the recording from the start and you'd avoid all that death and mayhem. THE END! Next up is the lettercolumn, titled "Eye in the Sky", but since it's issue #2, there aren't any letters. Instead there's a page of filler text talking about... how hard it is to come up with a page of filler text for 2nd issue lettercolumns. Seriously: "This is what is commonly known as your basic second issue text page. It is also the most difficult because it comes between the first and third issues of a magazine." You don't say?! Thanks for the insight, Kreskin. The rest of the page is basically a long-winded space-filler about how they don't have any copies of #1, so don't bother writing them, and instead contact other comic fans and ask them for their copies of #1. Based on the number of unread copies of #1 sitting in my room right now, I'm guessing this was a really unnecessary bit of advice. There are also two in-house ads in this issue. They are typical of DC from this time, with a bunch of tiny, poorly reproduced black and white cover images, with color only added to the logo parts. But l don;t have to describe it, because someone somewhere actually scanned one of the in-house ads from this very issue. So this is what it looks like: My grade: B for the ideas of Brother Eye and the relevance to today's DC universe; C- for the actual story containing those ideas; D- for the awful exercise in BS in the lettercolumn.
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Post by dlw66 on Aug 14, 2008 8:18:41 GMT -5
Doug: While I agree with you that it seems oddly dubious that some people would not realize what's going on, I have to point out that it's not as hard to brainwash a large group of people into believing something is not/hasn't happened as you may think it is, with China-post "June 4th Incident" in Tiananmen Square being the ultimate proof. Ah, but in a climate of fear it is difficult to know the effectiveness of the propaganda -- has it "worked", or do people simply behave out of suppositions and "what might happen"?
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Doctor Bong
Reservist Avenger
Master of belly dancing (no, really...)!
Posts: 167
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Post by Doctor Bong on Aug 14, 2008 13:55:31 GMT -5
When research on the Holocaust shows that in occupied areas indiginous collaborators outnumbered Germans sometimes 6 to 1, it's tough to believe that there were SO many people who knew nothing. Not buying it. Doug Doug: While I agree with you that it seems oddly dubious that some people would not realize what's going on, I have to point out that it's not as hard to brainwash a large group of people into believing something is not/hasn't happened as you may think it is, with China-post "June 4th Incident" in Tiananmen Square being the ultimate proof. sharkar: Great very informative posts as usual, I always learn something new when you post your inside scoop information. scottharris: I'd love to see the issue 40 rebuttal... it, as I've stated before, shows off the mindset of most citizens of comicdom in the 60's. Was the response very xenophobic? Keep up the FANTASTIC work! What the (Don) Heck, we could even point out to more recent efforts at propaganda and misdirection, which hit closer to home , but we better not get into that...!!! As the saying goes: you can't fool all the people all the time, but...
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Post by scottharris on Aug 14, 2008 22:10:40 GMT -5
scottharris: I'd love to see the issue 40 rebuttal... it, as I've stated before, shows off the mindset of most citizens of comicdom in the 60's. Was the response very xenophobic? Keep up the FANTASTIC work! Sure, here it is: Dear Stan, Roy, and Dick, Sgt. Fury #35 was wonderful -- absolutely magnificent! we will all miss Dino (and I hope you will keep us informed on his recovery in future issues), but Eric will be a Howler in the finest Marvel tradition. However, complimenting you on another Marvel masterpiece isn't the true purpose of this letter. I would like to answer a letter printed in the above issue which was written by a former Nazi SS officer. This man again raises the question about your characterization of German soldiers. Since you, Stan, have withheld any editorial comment on the subject, I would like to put my two-cents-worth in. I must agree that there were many brace Nazi soldiers who died fighting for their country, their Fuehrer, and the ideals of Nazism. But, brave men do not make an honorable nation, and dedicated fighters do not make their nation's goals the best one for all the people of the world. Certainly there were brave, decent men in the Nazi ranks, but all armies have such men. The important fact is that most Nazi leaders fell into the opposite category. Since a comic magazine uses its characters as symbols to represent a group, it is only natural and practical to pattern characters based on a certain faction after its superiors, such as Hitler and Goebbels of the Third Riech. I hope I haven't bored you, but I simply wanted to point out to the author of the above-mentioned letter that his former fellow German officers are not being depicted as cowards or bullies just because their nation committed the cardinal sin of losing a war. They are depicted as such because of the reason they went to war and the way they fought the war. Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to express my feelings on this matter. Barnee Escott Think nothing of it, Barnes ol' boy! You saved us the trouble of having to fill all that space with trivia! 'Nuff said!
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Post by scottharris on Aug 15, 2008 3:43:11 GMT -5
Enter... the DEMOLISHER! Iron Man #2 This is one of the most beat up comics in my possession. There are so many creases on the cover that it looks like a giant spiderweb, not to mention the liberal use of tape holding it together. It's a real mess. It doesn't take the crown as my most trashed comic -- that goes to my copy of FF #25, which is not only held together by willpower, but also smells as though a cat decomposed on it. I'm not kidding -- I literally had to cover my mouth with a cloth when I read it because the stench was so overwhelming. A close second is my copy of Journey Into Mystery #105, which is so beat up that I actually bought it for less than cover price about ten years ago, and as you know, cover price is 12 cents. Yes, that beat up. (I paid a dime for it; the story is complete though the cover is wrecked). So all told, this issue of Iron Man is merely ridiculously trashed. The inside, however, is complete and free of both death odor and grime. I don't mind beat up comics, but when the pages feel dirty and gritty, yuck. So, the cover... eh. Okay. This is what I consider to be the classic Marvel design. Corner box with price and issue number as well as company logo and character thumbnail; large, clean logo; simple small text box with the title of the issue; and a giant picture. No bells and whistles, just clean with the iconic Marvel corner box. This image is about the same -- it tells the tale, not bad composition, but nothing too exciting either, mainly due to the boring design of the big green robot guy. Hmm, I'm guessing that's "the DEMOLISHER". You'll also note that Iron Man is pushing himself up using the Title box; hi right hand would otherwise be about eight inches off the ground, but luckily the letter put it there to give him some leverage. This issue is from June, 1968, with a story from Archie Goodwin and art by Johnny Craig. I like Goodwin, mainly because he edited a lot of comics I really loved when I started reading in the 80's. When I see his name, I at least know the comic isn't going to be a disaster. Not familiar with Johnny Craig, but his art seems okay, other than that lame design for the bad guy. So, here we go. The story starts with a bow-tie wearing loon screaming about how much he hates Tony Stark while a big picture of Iron Man looms behind him on a view screen. Turns out this guy is a competitor named Drexel Cord and he's tormented by the fact that Stark gets credit just because he happens to be a superior genius. Cord has devised a brilliant plan to humble Stark -- he's built a huge, ugly green robot called the Demolisher, and programmed it with all the information about Iron Man's fighting patterns. While Cord's daughter Janice vainly tries to stop him, Drexel sends the robot off to kill Iron Man and prove Stark's inferiority. Janice decides she has to warn Stark, so she races off to do so, but before she gets to SI, the Destroyer finds Stark. Seems he has a homing device built into him that can track Iron Man's unique energy signature, and it is attracted to Stark because of the chest plate. Hmm. This Cord guy must be a genius after all, because if Iron Man can be tracked by his energy signature, all of his other enemies should be able to a) discover he is Stark and b) trash him simply by following this signature. But I guess only Cord has figured it out. Good show, Cord. Stark turns into Iron Man and starts fighting the robot. He quickly learns that the robot has a countermeasure built in for every one of his tricks and weapons. So, after trying a bunch of stuff, he decides to just play possum so he can figure out a way to defeat whoever is controlling the robot. Not so sure about the possum idea, but I like Stark's thinking when he realizes the robot isn't important and that he needs to defeat whoever is controlling it. Meanwhile, Janice has talked Jasper Sitwell into helping, and they race to her father's base. Drexel quickly smashes all of his control panels so that they can't utilize the self-destruct mechanism. A second later, the Demolisher shows up with Iron Man in tow, ready to finish the job. However, with the controls destroyed, he gains autonomy and for some reason his programming now tells him to just kill everyone. First up: Janice. Isn't that just always the way? Horrified at what he has done, Drexel basically jumps up and down and swings some metal bars around to distract the Demolisher. This works to the tune of a laser beam to the face. Score: Demolisher 1, Drexel 0. The distraction does do its job, though, because it allows Iron Man to stop protecting Janice and instead run up and poke his arm through a hole in the Demolisher's back that opened up during the fight. A couple twists and rips later, and one repulsor ray, and the ugly robot is down for the count. During this sequence, Iron Man is speaking his inner monologue aloud, and says this: "He's CUT OFF my shots at his interior and can strike with the DISINTEGRATION BEAM! Even if it means a FATAL HEART ATTACK I must hit FIRST!" Now, he then goes on to think the next line instead of say it, but... yeah, he just pretty much shouted to the room that the effort might give him a fatal heart attack. Considering he was complaining earlier in the issue about the struggle to keep his identity secret, this seems like the sort of thing he would want to stay quiet about. Anyway, Drexel dies, and Iron Man leaves Janice to mourn as he wonders if he himself is responsible for Drexel's death. THE END! Let's see... I have a bad feeling that this Janice Cord probably showed up again and got killed or eaten by aliens or her heart broken by Tony and turned into a psychotic killer or something. Women in Iron Man always get messed up. Let's check some online sources... yup, she was killed during a fight with Titanium Man and Crimson Dynamo just ten issues later in Iron Man #12. Geez, seriously, stay away from Tony Stark, it's just asking to get offed. The lettercolum is kind of funny in that half of the letters don't have anything to do with Iron Man at all. One is about how they need more female superheroes, one is just a goofy letter filled with reader "jokes" and another talks about how happy the guy is that Archie Goodwin joined Marvel, though he doesn't say one word about Iron Man in the letter. One letter that does mention Iron Man has a pretty good point and a nice reply from Stan: "...Also, I would like to know how come when [Tony] hugs a girl, she doesn't feel the metal chestplate? Would you believe the girls don't feel Stark's chestplate because he wears very heavy shirts? No? Would you believe very soft armor? How 'bout very thick girls?" Seriously, either Stark's libido wasn't as active as his reputation let on, or all his girlfriends had to know he was Iron Man. Or... that he had some really good story about adapting the technology for his weak heart or something. There's a nice in-house ad for "another MARVEL MIND EXPLOSION" -- namely, Doctor Strange and Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD each getting their own titles. My grade: B. The story was very simple in plot, and the robot looked really dumb, but Goodwin's writing made it a solid, enjoyable comic read.
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Post by dlw66 on Aug 15, 2008 8:50:20 GMT -5
This is one of the most beat up comics in my possession. There are so many creases on the cover that it looks like a giant spiderweb, not to mention the liberal use of tape holding it together. It's a real mess. It doesn't take the crown as my most trashed comic -- that goes to my copy of FF #25, which is not only held together by willpower, but also smells as though a cat decomposed on it. I'm not kidding -- I literally had to cover my mouth with a cloth when I read it because the stench was so overwhelming. A close second is my copy of Journey Into Mystery #105, which is so beat up that I actually bought it for less than cover price about ten years ago, and as you know, cover price is 12 cents. Yes, that beat up. (I paid a dime for it; the story is complete though the cover is wrecked). That is awesome! Can't beat the smell of old mishandled newsprint!! I once had a copy of Silver Surfer #4 that was about 50% complete. How a magazine gets that way, I have no idea...
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Post by sharkar on Aug 15, 2008 18:07:56 GMT -5
Yeah, I should have been more clear what I meant... No, you were clear. I was just adding my own take on the plotter credit. As mentioned, Ditko and Kiby each felt that they were responsible for the action, pacing and events--the plot-- of the series they illustrated, but only Ditko complained. So Ditko got the credit. When Steranko started on SHIELD (in Strange Tales) for the first few issues he drew over Kirby layouts. Stan often asked Jack to draw layouts as a way of indoctrinating artists new to Marvel to the Marvel style. After a few issues Steranko was comfortable doing the full pencils (without the Kirby layouts), and wouldn't you know it- -Stan started to credit Steranko as both the writer and the penciler! This time, Kirby had to make his displeasure known. So you'll see some later Lee-Kirby collaborations labeled as "A Lee-Kirby Production" or something like that, which further blurs the question of "who was doing what", as you said. I'm not sure if any of you had the chance to see In Search of Steve Ditko, but it had some very interesting insight about this. In Search of Steve Ditko was a British television production about a journalist over there who is an obsessive Steve Ditko fan. I haven't seen it yet but I'm dying to! As you mentioned, it was available in the U.S. briefly (on youtube, I believe) but it was quickly removed. Thanks very much for the link to the article- - I had no idea that this documentary was created by Jonathan Ross or that he was a Ditko fan--Ross is pretty famous in Britain (he is a talk show host/comedian, among other things) and he is reportedly quite a character in his own right. I'd also like to read Blake Bell's new book on Ditko. As writer and editor of every title the company put out, he was the Man. Absolutely. Stan spoke to the readers through both the stories and the "extras" (Bullpen Bulletins, advertising, letters, Stan's s Soapbox, etc.) and he established a consistent, identifiable voice for Marvel. This was very unlike DC at the time, which had different editors, overseeing several books--but there was little connection between, say, the characters/events in the Julius Schwartz-edited books and the Mort Weisinger-edited books. By the way, look what's coming up in November--a collection of Stan's Soapboxes! www.comicsbulletin.com/news/121868333899684.htm
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Post by sharkar on Aug 15, 2008 19:56:12 GMT -5
In fact, from what I understand, Stan did in fact assign Spider-man to another artist before Ditko -- he gave it to Jack Kirby. Kirby turned in a story for Amazing Fantasy #15 that had a much more typically heroic version of Spider-man that was pretty much just a reworking of Kirby's old character The Fly. At this point, Ditko supposedly pointed out to Stan the similarities between the two characters so Stan, wanting to avoid possible litigation, gave the assignment to Ditko and asked him to re-imagine the character. And thus the real Spider-man we all know was created. Yes, the Fly (created by Joe Simon and Jack Kirby) was still being published at the time, so it was not an unknown commodity to many in the comics business. Except it seems that Stan was unaware of the Fly! I've read several versions of the Fly's genesis, most of them contain the following elements: In the 1950s, Simon (Kirby's usual partner prior to the King working for Marvel) and C.C. Beck (Captain Marvel creator) wanted to create a new superhero character. Simon came up with a script about a hero called "Spiderman." The premise was that a kid who is fascinated with spiders finds a magic ring (in a spider web) that releases a genie. The genie grants the kid his wish to become a superhero (an adult superhero, much like Billy Batson becoming the adult Captain Marvel). Since the kid loves spiders, when he assumes a superhero identity it's that of a spider man. Simon, who often did the basic roughs for Kirby during their collaborations, sketched a "Spiderman" logo. At some point Simon ditched the "Spiderman" name because he felt there were already too many superheroes around whose names ended in "-man" (Superman, Batman, etc.), so he renamed the character the Silver Spider. Beck did some drawings of the character (in a Captain Marvel-like costume) and Simon went around to the comic publishers to try to sell this character, whose powers were supposed to be spider-related: he had web-shooting pistol so he could project webs and he could swing from the webs. He would also be able to walk up walls, much like a nimble spider. Simon took the idea to Harvey Comics, who rejected it because they felt superheroes were declining in popularity. He then took the idea to MLJ (aka Archie Comics) but this time, in his pitch he changed the name to the Fly, because he didn't want MLJ to know the Silver Spider idea had already been rejected by another company. MLJ liked the concept and agreed to publish it. At some point Beck left the project and Simon contacted Kirby and got him involved in the assignment for MLJ. So here was Simon with his script about a hero who swung from webs and walked on walls- -only he was called the Fly. Kirby questioned the name. In response, Simon said they'd give him little wings so the character would resemble a fly. Kirby then asked if the hero could fly, why would he bother to walk up walls? And so on. Kirby penciled the script and gave the hero a far different look than had appeared in the Beck sketches. Kirby and Simon then also changed other details, such as getting rid of the genie angle. Also, since he was now called the Fly, the web-pistol changed to a "buzz" gun. The Fly was published, but MLJ didn't like Kirby's art (they felt the same about some other artists turning in work for them too, such as George Tuska)...so Kirby was soon off the book, and Simon followed. A little later on, when Martin Goodman's company had morphed into Marvel and was enjoying an unexpected success with the FF and the Hulk, Goodman ordered his editor in chief--Stan--to produce more superhero books, pronto! Stan asked Jack if he had any ideas for new characters, so Jack showed him some of the early Silver Spider sketches- -including the "Spiderman" logo Simon had drafted. Jack told Stan about the kid with the genie angle, the magic ring, etc. Stan wanted to create a book featuring a young teenager as the lead hero, so Kirby's pitch---which included a young protagonist--seemed to fit the bill. However, it seems that Stan must have been unaware of the Fly because otherwise he would have known that Jack's "Spiderman" pitch contained many of the same concepts. Goodman wasn't convinced anyone would want to read about a hero who was based on a spider, so he told Lee that he could fit the story into a book that was going to be canceled, Amazing Adult Fantasy (the final issue of which would be titled Amazing Fantasy.) Kirby drew some sample pages but when he handed in the pages to Stan, Stan was less than pleased. Scott mentioned that Ditko (and others) noted the similarities with the Fly. In addition, Stan didn't like Kirby's overall approach; Stan had wanted a youthful protagonist- -not someone who magically became a perfectly-proportioned, muscular adult. Kirby's style was just too pat and "adult" for what Stan had in mind--there was no angst. The assignment went to Ditko, who was the main artist for Amazing Adult Fantasy at the time. Ditko completely changed the character and made him closer to what Stan had wanted--an imperfect, insecure teenager. Postscript: In the 1980s, a comics journal published an interview (which I have not read) with Kirby that evidently contained a lot of Stan-bashing. Among other things, Kirby claimed he and Simon had created Spider-Man because (he felt) Spidey was based on Spiderman/Silver Spider/Fly. In Kirby's view, all Stan did was add the hyphen to Spider-Man's name!
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Post by scottharris on Aug 15, 2008 22:23:26 GMT -5
I thought I'd do something a little different today, so I dove into my collection and came up with something Avengers related to discuss: Justice League of America #87 So, this issue is a late 15 cent DC, which is one of my favorite design eras at DC. At the tail end of the 15 cent era, just before they went to the giant sized 25 cent books, DC started experimenting with design, with some titles being tweaked seemingly on an issue by issue basis. In this case, what I really like about this era in JLA is the eagle and shield DC logo instead of the more typical little DC circle stamp. I also like the semi-frame with the floating head roster. The actual artwork is a typical DC story -- oh noes, why is Batman a freaky jester king?! Yawn. The art isn't bad, but the sensibility is a carry over from an earlier era; even though the art is modern, the idea seems like something you'd expect to see in a 1962 JLA. This issue, of course, is not from 1962, but is from February of 1971. It's got a story by Michael Friedrich and art by Dick Dillon. This is relatively early in Friedrich's career, and is his second issue at DC. After this run on JLA he would go on to a long stint as writer on Iron Man at Marvel. He also became friends with Avengers writer Roy Thomas, and thus this issue of Justice League, which is an unofficial crossover with one of my all-time favorite Avengers stories, the first appearance of Squadron Supreme in Avengers #85-86. Since the two companies were at each other's throats, no real crossover could occur, so Roy and Mike came up with the idea that each team, during the same month, would encounter an alternate universe version of the other. The Avengers traveled to the Squadron Supreme universe in Avengers #85, where the Squadron's world was on the brink of destruction, and likewise, in this issue of JLA... ...well, let's just get to it. The story starts right in the middle of an action sequence, with Batman already down for the count and Hawkman spouting Friedrich bon mots. Here's the first text in the issue: "Batman 00 out on his feet... badly beaten! Colossal monster! I'll show you we aren't to be slapped off as a cow does a fly!" Um. Oooooooh-kay, bro. Anyhow, Hawkman gets zapped by, I dunno, an encephalo beam or something, and is out. Batman, with his final thought, tries to activate a homing beacon, but fails. However, the conquering robot then activates it for him, as he wants the JLA to show up so he can defeat them. Meanwhile, in the Arctic, an unusually xenophobic Superman is brooding: "I am SUPERMAN... why must I keep impressing that on Earthlings? There are 3 1/2 billion people on this planet and I am unique.... different!" Well, good for you, jerkface. Cry me a river. This may be the most unsympathetic Superman I've eve read, and it's only one panel. Superman decides he needs the company of "those that share the curse -- as well as the blessing -- of super-powers" and goes to the JLA satellite. There he runs into: "Zatanna... the girl with the enigmatic smile and dancing eyes... Zatanna... ever the calm in the midst of a stormy world... Zatanna... the bearer of peace..." Zatanna...the brainwashing agent of fascist ethics... oh wait. Anyway, Superman is all like, "what ar eyou doing here?" and she's says she came to celebrate the anniversary of her father being rescued. I guess her idea of celebrating is to hang out in an empty satellite orbiting Earth, hoping an angsty alien shows up to brood at her. Hey, her plan worked! But Superman is no longer brooding, he's totally checking our her junk in a panel with the caption "Just by being near her I feel so comfortable... at ease..." Sorry, Lois, you just got the silver medal. Suddenly they get the distress beacon from Batman. So they rush to Peru, and coincidentally show up just as Flash, Atom and Green Lantern are getting there. The giant robot is still there, blasting away with his beam and a rock, but Batman is like "why are you guys here? Everything's fine. Go away." He says he and Carter Hall were working on an archaeological dig when they found the robot, so they decided to ask the robot to help with the dig. Wow, that's a pretty dumb idea, Batman! If I found a robot buried in an ancient archaeological site, I'd want to spend time studying it, maybe just a little bit? Of course, it doesn't matter, because Batman is lying through his teeth, which Superman detects with his cursed super powers. Batman decides he'd better just cut the lying bit since nobody is buying it and instead commands the robot to crush them all. Then we get a long fight sequence. I dunno about you guys, but I find most fight sequences to be kind of boring. They're essential to a lot of plots, but I prefer short fights to drawn out exercises where we just get page after page of dudes using their powers on each other. Not exciting. But, that's what happens here; Batman goes nuts and declares himself king of the world and the robot starts doing his robot thing, which as you can guess means analyzing everyone's powers and coming up with counter measures, etc. Apparently he also read Iron Man #2. Eventually, the robot defeats and kills all of them, then presents their bodies to Batman, who is giggling like a maniac. THE END! Well, the end of part one. Now we get part two, where we learn that Green Lantern power ring to "substitute android duplicates" for the real JLA and send telepathic messages to everyone to play along. Green Lantern's ring can send telepathic messages? Anyway, the JLA regroups (because the robot has wandered off) and they send Batman and Hawkman to the hospital. Now we get to a really confusing section. See, the Atom shrunk down and hid inside the computer -- his only useful trick, which he seems to do in every single appearance -- and in a one panel text blurb it explains that the robot is from a world on the far side of the universe and that Atom and the robot were teleported back across the universe to this planet. So, using the combined willpower of the JLA, Green Lantern's ring is able to teleport the team across the universe to where Atom is waiting. During this sequence, GL has the temerity to say that "My ring isn't as galaxy-shattering powerful as it used to be..." Dude, you just used telepathy and teleported the whole team across the universe. Stop whining. So, they arrive to discover that this world has pretty much been totally trashed. The robot was sent by the controlling corporations of this world to find materials, and thus it arrived on Earth. The JLA doesn't know this, as it's told in flashback, but they find out pretty quick when they suddenly run into.. The Avengers! Or, not quite. They actually run into a team of super-heroes called The Assemblers. Their world also was attacked by a robot probe that teleported back here, and just like the JLA they followed the robot back. Now, since the two teams are all superheroes, they must mistake each other's intentions and have a foolish fight. And so they do. The Assemblers look like this: Jack B. Quick, super speedster, who looks an awful lot like Quicksilver, only without the white hair; Blue Jay, "a normal man who's discovered how to shrink to the size of a bird and gain wings"; "Silver Sorceress -- A female with extremely powerful Hex-power, but unable to control it completely"; and "Wandjina -- coincidentally the name of the Australian aborigine god of rain... able to control the elements! On his world, he is believed to be an actual god, but no one really knows..." Wandjina also wields a giant mystical battleaxe. The two teams battle for... two pages. A giant two-page spread. Then, on the next page, a rock accidentally clocks Blue Jay, almost killing him. Man, that's embarrassing. Zatanna uses her magic to heal him, and just like that the two teams stop fighting. They decide they should be friends, so they team up and... ...no, they don't. Actually, the Assemblers go home and the JLA all grab Zatanna in a giant group hug which is really creepy and suggestive and I'm not even kidding. If I had a scan to show you of this drawing, I would, because it's kind of really weird. And then, after the hug... THE END! For real, nobody tries to go find the corporation that sent the robots to conquer Earth or anything. The Assemblers fly off to go home to their own world, JLA hugs and the story ends. WTF! The Direct Currents for this issue is kind of interesting; it features blurbs about Kirby's first Fourth World stuff, Forever People #1 and New Gods #1, which were both scheduled to come out. There's also a blurb for House of Secrets #90, which has no importance, but is only two issues before the introduction of Swamp Thing in #92. The lettercolumn is also interesting. It contains some really, really long letters about JLA #82-83, which was one of the annual team-ups with JSA. They have back to back letters where the first guy says #82 stunk but 83 was great, and the second guy says #82 was great but 83 was crap. The letter writers are not particularly complimentary, and have some cutting remarks about the convoluted nature of DC's old multi-Earth system: "Of course you couldn't reveal the reason the Spectre was residing in that mausoleum! Because there is no reason! "...Some of the team-ups in Brave & Bold have indicated that Spectre's adventures have taken place on Earth-One. Yet, there is only one Spectre, who, according to previous issues of JLA, is a member of the Justice Society and operation on Earth-Two! It appears to me that O'Neil got as fed up with the Earth discrepancy in Spectre as I did and decided to cop out altogether by killing him off! 'I can't help feeling that somewhere... the ghostly guardian live!' Oh, rubbish! You just want to bring him back again when you're stuck with a surprise ending." In fact, only two of the letters (the shortest ones) in the column are in praise of JLA; the other three long ones are totally bashing it. It's interesting to me how old fashioned this issue, and most DC superhero stuff, seems in comparison to the Marvel stuff at the same time. I know O'Neil was doing some interesting work both on Green Lantern and Batman, but for the most part, these superhero comics read like dusty relics, while stuff like Avengers #85 is still awesome. I mean, this comic is from 1971 for goodness sake. My grade: If it didn't have the bizarre non-crossover with the alternate universe Avengers, I'd give it a D. As a hardcore Avengers fan, I have to give it a B+ just for the curiosity factor.
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Post by sharkar on Aug 17, 2008 20:54:43 GMT -5
Avengers Parodies part 1 The Assemblers look like this: Jack B. Quick, super speedster, who looks an awful lot like Quicksilver, only without the white hair; Blue Jay, "a normal man who's discovered how to shrink to the size of a bird and gain wings"; "Silver Sorceress -- A female with extremely powerful Hex-power, but unable to control it completely"; and "Wandjina -- coincidentally the name of the Australian aborigine god of rain... able to control the elements! On his world, he is believed to be an actual god, but no one really knows..." Wandjina also wields a giant mystical battleaxe. Great minds think alike ! I loved the Assemblers/Heroes of Angor parody...in fact, last year on these very boards, I too had quoted the exact same description: ...But, in the same vein: in the JLA Companion there is an interview with writer JLA Mike Friedrich who created the Heroes of Angor (with Roy's blessing, they were friends)--a hilarious knock-off of the Avengers. There was the Silver Sorceress (who could not control her "extremely powerful hex power"); Jack B. Quick ("not as fast as the Flash but...he can fly for short distances"); Blue Jay (he shrinks "to the size of a bird" and can "gain wings") and--get ready--Wandjina ("coincidentally the name of the Australian Aborigine god of rain"), complete with some sort of ax-like weapon he's holding like a hammer. Funny stuff. Friedrich was spot on in his descriptions. I mean, Wandjina is hilarious on so many levels! And how Mike F described the powers is priceless: I love the tongue in cheek quality of Friedrich's captions...Jack B. Quick "can fly for short distances" (a sly reference to Quicksilver's rarely used, pretty much forgotten at the time ability to do same), or Blue Jay's ability to shrink "to the size of a bird... and gain wings"...when it's put like that, doesn't that sound like a pretty useless power? Here's a pic of the team in question. Note the Silver Sorceress is not clad in anything resembling silver. Also, the Sorceress sports a wildly impractical, silly looking headdress--a play on Wanda's original, Kirby-designed headdress.
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Post by sharkar on Aug 17, 2008 20:59:20 GMT -5
Avengers Parodies Part 2 (...continued from the preceding post:) And actually, DC had used the Silver Sorceress name a few years earlier (circa 1966) in the Inferior Five comic. This SS was a member of the Vendetta, a parody of the kooky quartet team of Avengers. Later on, the Inferior Five faced a Fantastic Four-knockoff, which was called- -the Kookie Quartet. I've only read of few issues of these so I'd love to see a collection of the Inferior Five stories...as well as a collection of Marvel's Not Brand Echh.
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Post by sharkar on Aug 17, 2008 21:38:48 GMT -5
Scott wrote about a JLA-Avengers 1971 "crossover" that was concocted by Roy Thomas and Mike Friedrich--but did you know that there was an earlier planned "crossover" between these two superhero team books? Mike Friedrich had come up with the idea back in 1969. Roy and Denny O'Neill (the JLA's writer at the time) liked the idea and agreed to do it. This led to Roy's creation of the Squadron Sinister in Avengers #70...but for the corresponding issue of Justice League of America (#75), it seems O'Neil got cold feet...or else his execution of the idea was so subtle as to be basically undetectable. In JLA #75, the references to the Avengers are in throwaway lines of dialogue or actions...for example, someone tossing a garbage can cover-- this is supposed to be a reference to Cap's shield; or there's a reference to a giant being a "veritable Goliath." It's quite a stretch. To be fair, as Roy mentions (in the very informative JLA Companion, a TwoMorrows publication), he was his own editor and didn't really need to get story approval from anyone...whereas O'Neil didn't enjoy that luxury. So maybe O'Neil couldn't get buy-in from the DC higher ups. Also, the O'Neil story contains many other prominent story elements, such as Green Arrow losing his fortune and Black Canary joining the team...so the "crossover" piece just receded into the background. I mean, the JLA cover alone shows you what O'Neil was focusing on! Anyway, here's what I posted last year, recounting some of the specific Avengers "references" in JLA #75: The Heroes of Angor was a far more successful parody of the Avengers than DC's first attempt. Back in 1969, Roy and Denny O'Neil planned a "secret crossover" of the JLA and the Avengers. So Roy created the (then) Squadron Sinister characters, Hyperion, Dr. Prism, etc....clearly modeled on Supes, GL, etc. They appeared in Avengers #70. But O'Neil seems to have gotten cold feet and instead of creating Avenger clones in the corresponding JLA issue (JLA #75), he did the crossover in a much more subtle way. In the JLA issue, some JLAers are battling their doppelgangers. So Batman is fighting another Batman who uses a garbage can cover as a weapon (this is supposed to be a reference to Cap's shield). Hawkman battles a Hawkman who says he will "repulse" his foe. The fake Atom can grow like a veritable "Goliath." And so on. Here are the "crossover" issues, both cover dated November 1969 (and on sale in September 1969):
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Post by scottharris on Aug 17, 2008 22:15:14 GMT -5
Scott wrote about a JLA-Avengers 1971 "crossover" that was concocted by Roy Thomas and Mike Friedrich--but did you know that there was an earlier planned "crossover" between these two superhero team books? Mike Friedrich had come up with the idea back in 1969. Roy and Denny O'Neill (the JLA's writer at the time) liked the idea and agreed to do it. This led to Roy's creation of the Squadron Sinister in Avengers #70...but for the corresponding issue of Justice League of America (#75), it seems O'Neil got cold feet...or else his execution of the idea was so subtle as to be basically undetectable. In JLA #75, the references to the Avengers are in throwaway lines of dialogue or actions...for example, someone tossing a garbage can cover-- this is supposed to be a reference to Cap's shield; or there's a reference to a giant being a "veritable Goliath." It's quite a stretch. Huh. No, I wasn't aware of this, despite the fact that I own and have read Justice League #75 several times. You're not kidding about it being subtle. As you mention, JLoA #75 has a lot of prominent and important story details. Actually, it's the number one comic on my want list. Normally as a collector I'm just looking for comics to fill in my runs so I can read the whole series, but JLoA #75 is an issue that I am really trying to find a high grade copy of. It's extremely hard due to the black cover to find a top grade copy, but as a Green Arrow/Black Canary fan this issue is secretly the absolute must have comic. It doesn't guide for any more than any other issue of JLoA from that time period, but that's just because collectors haven't realized how important it is and how hard it is to find in nice shape. As you mentioned, this is the issue where Green Arrow loses his fortune and where Black Canary joins the Justice League. It's also the second appearance of Green Arrow's new costume (complete with goatee), which was designed by Neal Adams and appeared just prior to this in Brave & Bold #85. More importantly than all these things, it's the beginning of the Green Arrow/Black Canary relationship (though this is fairly subtle) as the two of them banter as they tell the issue's story. Most importantly, though also most confusingly, this issue is technically the first appearance of Black Canary. Of course, if you read it, it really isn't, since it's continued from #74. That issue takes place on Earth-2 as part of the annual team up between the JLA and the JSA. During the story, Dinah's husband, Larry Lance, sacrifices himself to save the world. Distraught, Dinah decides to return to Earth-1 with the JLA so she can forget her woes. Hence her joining the JLA in the next issue, #75. However, eventually someone at DC realized that this didn't make any sense, because the heroes in the JSA on Earth-2 were all middle-aged or older and considered still active from WWII, while Black Canary was clearly in her twenties and not aging, along with the rest of the Earth-One heroes. So they did a really badly thought out retcon: turns out that the original Black Canary also died in #74, or something, but not before she brainwashed her daughter into thinking that she herself was the original Black Canary. This was done to explain why in her early Earth-One appearances she was mourning her dead husband. However, it's really creepy, because that dead husband was actually her own father. So the end result is that there are two different Black Canaries -- something made more explicit after Crisis on Infinite Earths where they now had a Golden Age Canary still alive as Dinah's mom -- even though only one of them ever had an actual first appearance and they weren't retroactively split until 35 years after the character debuted. Is that the most confusing thing you've ever heard of? The writers choice of JLoA as the splitting point, though, was a good one, because even if you discount all that brainwashing retcon stuff, the character who appears in #75 is essentially a new Black Canary. Not only is she now younger than her supposed Earth-2 contemporaries, this issue is also the debut of her Canary Cry superpower, which the Earth-Two, original Canary, never had (it's chalked up to exposure to some sort of energy in the fight at the end of #74). So in #75 we get a young Canary with a new superpower on a new world starting a new relationship with the new Green Arrow, who himself was just completely redone earlier in the month. Thanks to the retcon confusion, though, #75 still isn't recognized by collectors as being what it is: a silver age milestone, the first appearance of a major DC character, the beginning of one of DC"s most important relationships and a clear precursor to O'Neil's upcoming Green Lantern/Green Arrow series (as #75, with Arrow losing his fortune, also begins clearly shifting the character to the liberal activist he has remained ever since). It's still cheap as pie, though, so I probably shouldn't have given this away until I manage to find my own high grade copy of this elusive gem
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Post by scottharris on Aug 18, 2008 2:31:59 GMT -5
Well, I finished working my way through those 82 issues of Sgt. Fury. Actually, I bought three more, so it ended up being 85 issues. Overall it was a good series. It was interesting to see the style evolve over time -- the later issues were a much faster but also more enjoyable read as the writers eased off on the billions of word balloons and let the art carry some sections of the story. Friedrich and Ayers really reached their pinnacle, imo, with #67, which wasn't the best story but showed that they had really evolved into the modern age compared with their earlier stuff. There are four plots in this story -- one with the Howlers, one with Sgt. Fury, one with Eric Koenig and one with Fury's rival squad leader Bull McGiveney. Each story was color coded, with the Howlers in red, Koenig in green, etc. There's a really neat page where the four stories finally converge and the page is divided into 16 panels, four down and four across, and you can either read it left to right in a linear fashion or top to bottom according to color coding for each individual thread. All with no dialogue at all. That issue also features one of my top 5 covers from the series: This type of storytelling became more of the norm with Friedrich and Ayers after this issue, with key sequences being carried entirely on the artwork with no captions or dialogue. Unlike today's super decompressed stuff, though, these stretches would only last for a page at best, at moments of important action, to highlight events; then the regular scripting and pacing would return. Another excellent example of this, and a really cool issue in general, is Sgt. Fury #100, which takes place in the "present" (i.e. 1972) at a Howler's reunion to celebrate... the 100th issue of their comic coming out. The reunion is emceed by Stan Lee and has Ayers and Friedrich as guests! Captain America and some other Marvel heroes are also there. One of the Howlers, Reb Ralston, is a Senator at that point, and while he's making a speech about the comic, some extremists try to assassinate him because he is one of the key legislators pushing through civil rights bills. The issue has some really funky, scriptless action sequences, as well as another of my five favorite covers, this great one from Gil Kane that featured the sweet new logo: The lettercolumn, though, is almost more interesting that the comic. The stuff about Vietnam is actually not as prevalent as I expected, though there is some, and the civil rights issues brought up by having the integrated unit are likewise there but not prominent. What surprised me is that just about every single issue had a letter from someone complaining about how the Germans were portrayed. After the flap revolving around the SS officer, another long fight broke out in the lettercolumn regarding the use of Rommel in a story. Though he was portrayed in a very positive light imo, a lady wrote in to castigate Marvel's handling of him on the grounds that he was the greatest thing ever, not a Nazi, only a patriot, etc. Her letter was angrily rebutted by of all people an 8 year old Israeli boy. Then people write in saying the boy's opinion was prejudiced because he was Jewish... just a very interesting and surprising argument. The biggest question for me is what happened to the series. After #79 the series began alternating new issues with reprints. Somewhere along the way it also went bi-monthly. So in other words, people were only getting 3 or 4 new stories every year. The quality suffered as a result, as even the stuff turned in by the regular team seemed like they were fill in issues. Despite this, in the next to last new issue, #119, the sale figures were published and showed the title was still averaging 180,000 sales per issue. While not a blockbuster for that time period, that's still solid business, and not vastly down from the 202,000 it had been reporting a year or two earlier, despite all the reprints and lower quality work. So, I just don't quite understand why Marvel made it bi-monthly and jammed it with reprints if it was still a solid seller. The moves really seem like they killed off a healthy, long running series that potentially could have kept going and making them money. As it is they put out another 47 bi-monthly reprints before finally canceling it, so someone must still have been buying it. Very, very odd.
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Post by Dr. Hank Pym on Aug 18, 2008 15:00:09 GMT -5
Doug: While I agree with you that it seems oddly dubious that some people would not realize what's going on, I have to point out that it's not as hard to brainwash a large group of people into believing something is not/hasn't happened as you may think it is, with China-post "June 4th Incident" in Tiananmen Square being the ultimate proof. Ah, but in a climate of fear it is difficult to know the effectiveness of the propaganda -- has it "worked", or do people simply behave out of suppositions and "what might happen"? Doug: Point taken, Doug. We may never know if it totally worked or not! Now, I'm sure that SOME people know what happened, but it got to the point where history text books over there totally gloss over that time period in general! Imagine that! Thanks for the rebuttal letter, scottharris. And thanks for the history lessons, scottharris and sharkar. This is easily one of the best threads here! Keep up the entertaining reviews!
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Post by scottharris on Aug 18, 2008 19:18:39 GMT -5
Well, this is a first for me, anyway: Falling in Love #117 As you can probably tell from my comments on here, I've been increasingly interested in the design elements of comics, to the point where I've been buying and collecting comics just for the covers. I've always loved commercial art -- travel posters, advertising posters, film one sheets, etc. -- and vintage comic covers are no exception. With this in mind, and with a little push from Roy Lichtenstein, I've recently begun bidding on lots of romance comics on ebay. You'd be surprised at how many people bid on these, so getting an affordable lot is difficult, but I finally won one cheap this week and just received them So, let's take a look. No pun intended, but I love this logo, with the black bar behind it highlighting the word Love and separating it from the rest of the cover. I also appreciate the "National Romance Group" seal in the corner, with the little heart, rather than the usual DC seal from this era (later eras would play with this even more, as the double circle DC logo, for instance, morphed into a giant heart shaped bubble). The composition of the cover art is also very nice, with the line in the middle separating the brightly colored scene of happiness on the right from the darker, taboo scene of forbidden romance on the left side. The kicker for me is the text across the top: "Special Bonus A GIRL'S GUIDE TO LIBERATION" It's not my favorite romance cover that I've seen -- some of the giant sized 25 cent issues that immediately followed this era have some sweet designs -- but it's a definite keeper. So, let's dive in, shall we? The only thing we risk is... OUR HEARTS. "The whole thing started as a lark for me -- a silly game that had to be played for the sake of my older sister Dotty. Little did I realize, then, that as each step along the way brought Dotty closer and closer to the altar, I myself was to lose my heart, but by bit, to the very man who was making certain that I was... NEVER A BRIDE TO BE!" Oh, that's right. This issue, by the way, is from August of 1970. Unfortunately, there aren't any credits listed for any of the stories, which is too bad considering that this first one is a doozy. Nice art -- slightly cartoony but not too much. We start off with the shapely lass Lisa asking a guy to come over for dinner. He's surprised, since she's the boss's daughter, but agrees. Turns out it's a matchmaking event, s the boss is trying to hook his other, shy daughter Dotty up with this British guy who just started working at the company. Sure enough, it works, and the two start dating. Dotty, however, is jealous of Lisa, who is "prettier and more popular" according to, uh, their mother. Nice one, mom. She worries that Derek is going to fall for Lisa, and is especially concerned because Derek never tells her he loves her. Yep, word to the wise: that's usually a bad sign. Things suddenly come to a head, though, when Dotty's dad lays off Derek because of a downturn in the economy. Because he's on a work visa, the only way he can stay in America is to marry someone right away. So, he proposes to Dotty. Suddenly, Lisa realizes at that very moment that she's loved Derek all along. She helps with the wedding plans but is in despair the whole time. Finally the big day arrives, and just before the ceremony starts, she tells Derek that she loves him. The two embrace in a mad kiss -- he loves her too, he just felt bad for her sister. Not as bad as he's about to fell, though, because the sister sees them making out. Whoops! Shockingly, though, she condones it. Turns out she purposely had Derek fired to force him to marry her for the green card. She now realizes just how messed up that is, and asks forgiveness. The mom, though, is much more worried about the fact that a chruch full of people are waiting for the wedding ceremony. What will they do?! So they come up with a genius plan: Derek goes out and marries Lisa instead. THE END! Next up is the heartwrenching tale of a... "BACHELOR GIRL!" Yes, meet Amy, an 18 year old, recent high school grad who shocks her parents by announcing she is moving to New York to pursue the life of a bachelor. Unheeding of their concerns, she rushes out to New York, where she is befriended by a nice cab driver, who is also American. Wow, I didn't realize this was science fiction as well as romance! She then moves in with an old friend, who gets her a job "in our typing and stenographic pool". Hey ladies, sky's the limit in the business world of 1970! Live your dreams! Plus, she immediately starts going out with her boss. Good idea. Yes, life is truly wonderful... ...until her parents visit. Suddenly, she realizes what a fool she's been. You see, she threw herself at Tom from the office, but now he rejects her. She was desperate for love in a strange place, and without it, she wants to go home immediately. Suddenly, though, the friendly cab driver calls to ask her on a date. I guess he memorized her address and used it to track down her number, which is totally normal and not creepy at all. At least, Amy doesn't think so: she's so thrilled at the idea of a date that she begins to weep as she realizes New York will work out after all. THE END!!! And we're only halfway through the issue. Man, these things pack some serious action for just 15 cents. Next up is a two page spread with "Tips for Vacation-Time Tourists". "All roads lead to girlhood's mecca -- MAN!" This guide teaches girls how to go on long plane trips without looking worn out. If you follow these tips then you'll be "feeling, smelling, looking like a bright-eyed rose instead of a faded flower!" Next up is a text feature: A Girl's Guide to Liberation! This is more about leaving home than Women's Lib, unfortunately. It does contain some nice bits of advice: "And they must instill responsibility in her, a responsibility to herself, not shifting it to others, like the girl who wet to live with her older, married sister, or the girl who joined the hippies, finding herself dependent on them." d**n dirty hippies. Actually, this section has some pretty decent, straightforward advice for young women who are trying to become independent. It's not bad. This essay it attributed to someone named Anne Case, but I don't know who that is. Next up is the tale of the girl named Ivy who was afraid that eveyone was... "CHEATING ON ME!" And I don't mean me, I mean her, Ivy that is. I mean... oh, never mind. Anyway, Ive has a problem -- she's insanely jealous of her boyfriend Rory. At least, it was a problem until he got tired of it and dumped her. Whoops! Now Ivy has vowed never to get jealous. Finally she meets a new man -- Les -- and everything is going great. Suddenly, though, they run into Les's ex-girlfriend on the beach, and just like that, the old jealousy returns. Ivy begins badgering Les constantly about his ex. Finally, she just has to confront him after he breaks a date while claiming it's because he's hanging out with a friend. Rushing to Les's house she discovers he's been lying -- there's actually a party going on. However, it's for his little nephew, and was was just going to hand out with a friend while the kid played. Oops. Les is really ticked off at Ivy and gives her an ultimatum to stop screwing around with this jealousy crap, or else. She finds this hard, though, when her friend rushes in a few days later and says that she saw Les embracing someone else at the bus stop, where Ivy is scheduled to meet him. Heartbroken, she jots down a hasty and angry letter, dumping him. We cut to Les and find out that the mystery woman is... his cousin. C'mon, Ivy, haven't you ever read these before?! Luckily, though, Ivy unexpectedly shows up -- it turns out she tore up the letter and decided to trust Les after all. Happiness abounds. THE END! Last is the lettercolumn, which isn't about previous issues, but is an advice column. "To you... from Carol Andrews". Again, I don't know who that is. The letters are sort of interesting. There's one from a girl who isn't sure she should date a boy who is a foot shorter than she is. There's one from a girl arguing with her mother about wedding plans -- "our new associates are more important than a lot of relatives". Nice one. That will win your mom over. One from a girl who doesn't understand why her boyfriend doesn't like it when she wears short skirts, even though the other boys all seem to like it. Carol gives her a great big DUH on that one. My favorite: "For some time now, I've been typing all my letters. Nobody made a fuss about it until one boy I recently wrote criticized me as being impersonal. It never occurred to me that somebody would take exception. Have I been wrong all the time?" Carol suggests that in today's modern age, writing with a typewriter is fine, but she may want to tie her letters up with a lavender ribbon instead of a black one to make them feel more personal. Good advice for everyone. My grade: A+. There's more packed in this comic than in most of the lame DC superhero stuff from the same era. It's funny, but DC was putting out some really good genre stuff -- its war, western and romance books were all good and the horror stuff was decent to. It's just the superhero stuff from this period that seems kinda lame in comparison to both Marvel and what DC was doing in these other genres.
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