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Post by bendisbites on Sept 11, 2007 10:08:42 GMT -5
sigh, ok.
even though the Skrulls only take on shapes and don't acquire memories or anything of that nature, and could be detected by any number of ways --retina scans, DNA, the inequal distribution of mass and weight when they take on certain forms (because skrulls don't get additional mass from an extradimensional source like Pym particles when they take on a shape larger than them, for example) etc. now Marvel and Bendis say they have a way around that.
ok.
but they found out how to proof themselves against magic?
really?
just by having Doc Strange an unconscious captive for a brief while? they now understand ALL magic enough to completely proof themselves against it?
Reed Richards who is likely smarter than any single skrull could not understand magic in any way and needed doctor strange's help to do even rudimentary spells in FF 500.
It's not a science, it's like someone said "here are physics and here's this other stuff that doesn't obey a single law of science. In fact scientific method won't work on it at all, now go figure it out.-- and not only figure it out, but also figure out a way to understand it enough and how to proof against it."
how do you even test your stealth powers then? do they have a doctor strange level sorceror or something to see if it works?
and have they captured any Gods as well? because they have different pseudo religious mystical abilities which may be some sort of divinity.
and the other thing that troubles me is if they're so undetectable by any means, why haven't they taken over the entire universe?
we're a backwards planet so we can be excused for our shoddy defenses, but man, the Kree empire and the Sh'iar and the Badoon are just ripe for conquest if NO ONE and NOTHING can detect you.
wouldn't it just have been much easier plotwise to abduct or otherwise incapacitate those who might fall out of the skrull's ability to deceive with technology?
in fact wouldn't that have been a good plotline and clue--to show certain members of the marvel universe just "dropping out" suddenly and figuring out "why them?"
I think it's better than "well, you can't detect the Skrulls because they figured out everything..."
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Post by goldenfist on Sept 26, 2007 9:30:49 GMT -5
We'll just have to wait an see how the story goes when Secret
Invasion #1 comes out.
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Post by balok on Oct 2, 2007 19:44:19 GMT -5
You're spending a lot of effort trying to understand a plot conceived by a bad writer. And you know he's a bad writer, 'cause it's right there in your handle. 'Nuff said?
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Post by bendisbites on Oct 3, 2007 1:04:02 GMT -5
You're spending a lot of effort trying to understand a plot conceived by a bad writer. And you know he's a bad writer, 'cause it's right there in your handle. 'Nuff said? just because it's an impossible dream doesn't mean I shouldn't dream it. |
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Post by The Night Phantom on Oct 4, 2007 23:03:48 GMT -5
just because it's an impossible dream doesn't mean I shouldn't dream it. Enjoy your windmills… |
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Post by Engage on Oct 27, 2007 19:51:08 GMT -5
I think the simple answer is that the Skrull concept has always been built on that sort of thing because they're straight out of pulp fiction.
Undetectable! Invincible! They could even be your neighbor! No one can stop the menace of the Reds SKRULLS!
The concept rest on being able to appear as anyone and being totally indistinguishable from who they replace. No matter how many ways you can detect them, its always not enough. Almost any Skrull story is going to have that conceit, regardless of author or event.
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Post by bendisbites on Oct 28, 2007 10:14:58 GMT -5
I think the simple answer is that the Skrull concept has always been built on that sort of thing because they're straight out of pulp fiction. Undetectable! Invincible! They could even be your neighbor! No one can stop the menace of the Reds SKRULLS! The concept rest on being able to appear as anyone and being totally indistinguishable from who they replace. No matter how many ways you can detect them, its always not enough. Almost any Skrull story is going to have that conceit, regardless of author or event. Almost every Skrull story I've ever read has them being detected by some means in the end. And the problem is Marvel decided to up the ante by making them imperceptible beyond all logic. Skrulls are SHAPESHIFTERS. Not telepaths and not genetic mimics. They can't duplicate Thor's strength and they don't know all your secrets. Not only that, they come from an alien culture so their behavior and mannerisms are different. There's a very good Iron Man story by Len Kaminski where Tony's body is taken over by an artificial intelligence and the artificial intelligence speaks and acts much like Tony, and for all intents and purposes is Tony Stark but simply doesn't have the nuances down pat. I don't doubt that in the short run, the Skrulls should be able to wreak havoc, but anyone with the brainpower of a hamster in special ed should be able to figure out some ways to discern who's a skrull and who isn't just based on the fact that they can't alter their DNA. And if they can now alter their DNA, why not just become the most powerful creatures in the universe and not worry about simple conquest. Seriously, the idea is just poorly thought out. I don't know if the execution will also be weak (so far, it ain't good) but the idea is poorly thought out. |
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Post by Engage on Oct 28, 2007 12:37:25 GMT -5
Right, but the flaws of the Skrulls weakened them significantly in the Marvel Universe. This is their reboot, their return to the front of Marvel villainy. I think about it less as a literal return of the Skrulls and more of a return to concept for the Skrulls.
Eventually Reed Richards will find a Kirby Machine to distinguish between Skrull and non-Skrull and order will be restored in the Marvel Universe. But for now I say let the Skrulls have their day. Sometimes an idea doesn't need to make perfect sense to be a good one.
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Post by bendisbites on Oct 28, 2007 17:23:16 GMT -5
Right, but the flaws of the Skrulls weakened them significantly in the Marvel Universe. This is their reboot, their return to the front of Marvel villainy. I think about it less as a literal return of the Skrulls and more of a return to concept for the Skrulls. Eventually Reed Richards will find a Kirby Machine to distinguish between Skrull and non-Skrull and order will be restored in the Marvel Universe. But for now I say let the Skrulls have their day. Sometimes an idea doesn't need to make perfect sense to be a good one. I think the Skrulls were still plenty dangerous. Causing short term havoc is still havoc, as they did in the Captain America storyline a few years back. One of the problems is now instead of looking at the spectacular aspects of a story like this, Marvel is now more about the small story, the character rifts--which I prefer in most cases, but in conjunction with space invasion, it seems too small a story and too close in nature to Civil War--the story so far is designed to create more tension in the MU and in order to do that, they're taking ridiculous liberties beyond the internal logic that they've been offering as of late. Considering how much time and effort they're putting into the Initiative the idea that some sort of super sophisticated ID confirmation technology doesn't exist. And after Maximum Security the idea that there isn't some early warning system for teleportation/spacecraft (as there was during Jeph Loeb's run on FF) doesn't make sense. I'm really not putting too much thought into it-- Marvel has created this atmosphere with the current storytelling trend. In the current Marvel Universe I can't see how this doesn't lead to a xenophobic assault on all spacefaring races who would invade us, for example. And how come Tony "the futurist" Stark didn't see an invasion coming (for the Nth time)? It's not as if another explanation for how the Skrulls could've had a plan didn't exist. Marvel could've crafted a logical, sensible and suspenseful way to tell this story and they didn't. Marvel has just abdicated good storytelling to tell the story they want. Can it work to take liberties with good storytelling tenets? Yes, good authors and filmmakers have taken liberty with storytelling and how it works for...well, since storytelling began. Do a significant number of writers and artists break storytelling fundamentals well? I don't think so and I don't think it's happening here. |
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Post by Engage on Oct 28, 2007 19:53:09 GMT -5
Fair point. I'll agree with that.
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Post by bendisbites on Oct 29, 2007 0:30:27 GMT -5
Fair point. I'll agree with that. Wow, I have to give you an exalt for being so open minded. It's very rare to encounter someone who takes in another person's argument and gives it a fair shake, especially on this board. ;D |
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Post by balok on Oct 29, 2007 17:18:11 GMT -5
Something to keep in mind, bendisbites, is that we humans have devised all sorts of tools and technologies to amplify our inborn traits. And the Skrulls are farther along the tech path than we are. It IS possible they have devised technologies to amplify their abilities. These people made the Super Skrull after all - they beamed energy across light years to support him in his early appearance. They're not technological lightweights, and after a few of their shapeshifters got detected, they would logically turn their ingenuity towards preventing that from happening again. Once it gets around the galaxy how to detect them, their ability becomes far less useful, especially against their habitual enemies which includes Earth. So they'd try to stay one jump ahead of that. They'd also devise tactics to maximize their effectiveness.
It might be possible to devise a DNA test to detect them, but how long will it take, and can you quarantine people for that long? And when they eventually move away from surveillance, you've got to do it again. Tactics might include replacing, not a key general, but the major who advises him - and who is under far less scrutiny.
Deep Space Nine only scratched the surface - true shapeshifters with centuries to hone their tactics and a superior technology should be able to conquer Earth with very little difficulty, especially given that the heroes still distrust each other thanks to Tony Stark and the Initiative (even if they work together, for many of them they're doing it because the alternative is prison, not becuase they like Tony or are now convinced he was right. People might abandon the war, but their opinions and resentments likely linger.)
Just food for thought...
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Post by bendisbites on Oct 29, 2007 20:09:54 GMT -5
Something to keep in mind, bendisbites, is that we humans have devised all sorts of tools and technologies to amplify our inborn traits. And the Skrulls are farther along the tech path than we are. It IS possible they have devised technologies to amplify their abilities. These people made the Super Skrull after all - they beamed energy across light years to support him in his early appearance. They're not technological lightweights, and after a few of their shapeshifters got detected, they would logically turn their ingenuity towards preventing that from happening again. Once it gets around the galaxy how to detect them, their ability becomes far less useful, especially against their habitual enemies which includes Earth. So they'd try to stay one jump ahead of that. They'd also devise tactics to maximize their effectiveness. It might be possible to devise a DNA test to detect them, but how long will it take, and can you quarantine people for that long? And when they eventually move away from surveillance, you've got to do it again. Tactics might include replacing, not a key general, but the major who advises him - and who is under far less scrutiny. Deep Space Nine only scratched the surface - true shapeshifters with centuries to hone their tactics and a superior technology should be able to conquer Earth with very little difficulty, especially given that the heroes still distrust each other thanks to Tony Stark and the Initiative (even if they work together, for many of them they're doing it because the alternative is prison, not becuase they like Tony or are now convinced he was right. People might abandon the war, but their opinions and resentments likely linger.) Just food for thought... Sure. In my first post, I allow for the idea that they've possibly been able to create a small force that somehow replicates a hundred different factors that should give them away. But how do you beat Godly divination? How do you beat Dr. Strange who can see the heart of Eternity and has the power of Ikonn to call upon to see through illusion? I'll even allow for the idea that you could beat some of that stuff if you for example, captured Baron Mordo and studied him for twenty years, or had a pact with Dormmammu, or Nightmare was in cahoots somehow. But Marvel has got to give me that. And the other problem is, the Skrulls invade earth, I dunno fifty other times and never bother to bring any of this tech with them? "The spaceship's overloaded. I know they've got a Thunder God and all on Earth, not to mention like a hundred telepaths, which makes shapeshifting pointless because our brains don't change, but let's just leave the stuff that makes us undetectable at home. If I don't we'll have to leave the CDs behind. You wanna go through 15 light years looking for a good radio station?" If the Skrulls are infiltrating other planets like those in the Sh'iar and Kree galaxy (as seen in Kree Sh'iar War where a single Skrull was disguised as a Sh'iar council member) and they have this ability to go undetected to mystic forces, which I've seen defy most technology, how has any force ever stopped them? It just seems like Marvel needed the Skrulls to be undetectable and so now they are. And tomorrow they won't be because Marvel won't need them to be. Which will be a good thing. I mean realistically, the only way I see out of this story is that someone convinces the Skrulls that their prophecy is wrong and they leave. But honestly if they decide tomorrow that they just want to blow up earth for giggles, they're undetectable and thus they replace Putin, Bush and Osama bin Laden and start World War III. The way they're set up now you cant stop them and it would take a handful to destroy the world. Surely there's five angry Skrulls out there who'd want that if they can't have Earth. Game over, man... |
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Post by balok on Oct 30, 2007 12:50:15 GMT -5
About the only way to defeat the people you mention would be to give them something else to occupy their attention. That would require dupes, quislings and fifth columnists and still wouldn't hold up indefinitely.
Also, you're thinking of a properly written Doctor Strange who is an elite professional at the very top of the magical hierarchy, and not the watered down waste Bendis has employed in New Avengers and will probably use in Secret Invasion, if he even bothers to worry about it.
Bendis is a very bad writer, so I fear your issues will never be satisfactorily addressed, just glossed over. Joe Quesada is a very bad editor for trusting a very bad writer with a major Marvel event. My hope is that it flops like a souffle in an earthquake and this corrodes Bendis' and Quesada's credibility.
In fact, am I in the unenjoyable position of actively rooting against Marvel these days so that the housecleaning I know is needed will come sooner, rather than later.
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Post by von Bek on Oct 30, 2007 13:27:32 GMT -5
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Post by balok on Oct 30, 2007 13:58:06 GMT -5
Church sums it up nicely. As someone disturbed by some of what's going on in the real world, I'd like it better if entertainment and news organizations scrutinized that - took it apart and explained to their viewers and customers what's wrong with it. Marvel didn't do that. It jumped on the bus with the 30% or so of people who still approve of Mr. Bush's plans, and uncritically endorsed them as having merit. I felt betrayed by one of my favorite entertainments when the Civil War ended. And I still feel betrayed.
I guess someone high up at Marvel is in the 30%.
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Post by goldenfist on Nov 6, 2007 13:29:10 GMT -5
Skrull's can't use the powers of the characters they shapeshift
into right.
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Post by uberwolf on Nov 6, 2007 21:00:09 GMT -5
Depends on the power. I'm sure they could imitate a limited version of Mr. Fantastics's stretching ability.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Nov 7, 2007 11:52:09 GMT -5
I still laugh when anyone tries to claim Civil War was NeoCon because they *clearly* have absolutely NO idea whatsoever about anything written by Mark Millar ever.
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Post by Alchemist-X on Nov 7, 2007 20:28:43 GMT -5
Balok good point about DS9, thinking of the Skrulls like that actually makes me feel like they could be dangerous.
and BB, it all depends on who, and how many people are skrulls how much sense this will really make. (So Far for Elektra it doesn't seem unreasonable that a Skrull could hide as member of the Hand, it just seems to lack a point in terms of staging an alien invasion.)
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Post by goldenfist on Nov 7, 2007 23:28:44 GMT -5
I heard that the real Elektra will show up in Secret Invasion.
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Post by woodside on Nov 7, 2007 23:34:35 GMT -5
(So Far for Elektra it doesn't seem unreasonable that a Skrull could hide as member of the Hand, it just seems to lack a point in terms of staging an alien invasion.) The Hand is a very influential force in the MU. They have connections with the New York underworld, Hydra, AIM, and a former rogue Brotherhood cult called the Dawn of the White Light. Plus, if you recalled during the "Secrets and Lies" arc, the Hand and Hydra (joined together) sought an alliance with the clan of Yoshinda (led by the Silver Samurai). Maybe that's how they sneak. Form an alliance, sneak in, and take someone's place. At Skrullektra's command, they could have snuck in and killed anyone within one of those organizations and then she could have had that person replaced with a Skrull. A Skrull in charge of AIM or Hydra is not a good thing. Futhermore, there's also the fact that she could have had the Hand launch an attack on a specific organization. For all the jokes about ninjas, the Hand is quite formidable. |
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Post by goldenfist on Nov 21, 2007 19:53:49 GMT -5
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