Why are psychopaths allowed to join the Initiative

[overlord]

How come psychopaths like Bullseye, Green Goblin, Scarecrow, etc are allowed to join the Initiative?

[balok]

I have asked this question for nearly a year and never received a satisfactory answer.

I'm sure it's all part of the wonder and majesty of putting the government in charge of superheroes.

[Doctor Doom]

Actually, technically it's not a matter of being allowed to join the Initiative. The CSA has been put in charge of the Thunderbolts section, which is the Colorado team and they in their enduring wisdom have decided to recruit and control psychopaths. This is something which Iron Man and basically all pro-reg heroes are STRONGLY against but have no control over at this point. It should be noted that some were deployed in the civil war during a period where things were absolutely desperate and the pro-reggers needed people with experience in superhuman combat, however then they agreed to do so, and they were strongly regulated and never once went out of control, and it was only for a very brief period of time during which they were deployed exactly twice, as a last resort. Then the CSA got hands on them and went mad.

[balok]

There was also that time when Iron Man used one to create a diplomatic incident and the threat of war, to push folks towards his viewpoint. Don't soft soap Tony; he supports the use of such dangerous individuals when he needs them. That's one of the "ends justify the means" things I never agreed with, that corroded my respect for Tony. Taken when other actions, it is a reason why I no longer regard him as a hero.

[uberwolf]

docdoom said:

the pro-reggers needed people with experience in superhuman combat, however then they agreed to do so, and they were strongly regulated and never once went out of control

Were we reading the same comic? So The Jester and that toy guy that totally beat down Spiderman were under control? They weren't in the Thunderbolts but they were there under sanction of the government.

[balok]

uberwolf said:

Were we reading the same comic? So The Jester and that toy guy that totally beat down Spiderman were under control? They weren't in the Thunderbolts but they were there under sanction of the government.

And they were there because Marvel wanted to show the new generation of blood-thirsty reader what a bad*** Frank Castle is. In case they didn't already know it. Any other day, Spider-Man takes those two and two more like them down without working up a sweat. Heck, he even did something like it in CW #7.

You can usually sell anything that caters to peoples' base instincts. Of course, what can be sold and what has value aren't always the same thing.

[Doctor Doom]

uberwolf said:

Were we reading the same comic? So The Jester and that toy guy that totally beat down Spiderman were under control? They weren't in the Thunderbolts but they were there under sanction of the government.

Er, yes they WERE under contro.. Which is why ,after beating him in a fight, they wanted to kill him but did not, because they were under control, and were about to bring him back when they were brutally murdered.

There was also that time when Iron Man used one to create a diplomatic incident and the threat of war, to push folks towards his viewpoint. Don't soft soap Tony; he supports the use of such dangerous individuals when he needs them. That's one of the "ends justify the means" things I never agreed with, that corroded my respect for Tony. Taken when other actions, it is a reason why I no longer regard him as a hero.

Indeed, he did use one under the hopes no one would hurt, to save lives.

Which was certainly MUCH farther from bringing America to the brink of war than Cap manages with not one but four nations, but let's just forget and forgive, shall we?

[overlord]

docdoom said:

Actually, technically it's not a matter of being allowed to join the Initiative. The CSA has been put in charge of the Thunderbolts section, which is the Colorado team and they in their enduring wisdom have decided to recruit and control psychopaths. This is something which Iron Man and basically all pro-reg heroes are STRONGLY against but have no control over at this point. It should be noted that some were deployed in the civil war during a period where things were absolutely desperate and the pro-reggers needed people with experience in superhuman combat, however then they agreed to do so, and they were strongly regulated and never once went out of control, and it was only for a very brief period of time during which they were deployed exactly twice, as a last resort. Then the CSA got hands on them and went mad.

So you are sure Scarecrow isn't a member of the Initiative.

[balok]

docdoom said:

Indeed, he did use one under the hopes no one would hurt, to save lives.

When you say "to save lives" that implies (at least to me) that someone would die, right then. (For example, if he'd commanded the Green Goblin to use his enhanced strength to fend off falling debris that would have crushed a normal person.) That was not the situation here. What Iron Man did was create a diplomatic incident he hoped would cause Atlantis to rattle its sabre and scare people. Tony risked war with Atlantis to advance the pro-registration cause, and only to do that.

What might have happened had the heroes won the Civil War remains open to speculation. There are two perspectives: (1) in universe, you simply don't know. You've got characters on each side making cases. There's no particular reason besides personal preference to believe one set of characters over the other. (2) out of universe, Marvel would not have had an apocalypse because that would not sell books in the long term.

docdoom said:

Which was certainly MUCH farther from bringing America to the brink of war than Cap manages with not one but four nations, but let's just forget and forgive, shall we?

Debating tip: when you lose an argument, don't resurrect it a few months later and expect to be taken seriously.

[Doctor Doom]

balok said:

I
When you say "to save lives" that implies (at least to me) that someone would die, right then. (For example, if he'd commanded the Green Goblin to use his enhanced strength to fend off falling debris that would have crushed a normal person.) That was not the situation here. What Iron Man did was create a diplomatic incident he hoped would cause Atlantis to rattle its sabre and scare people. Tony risked war with Atlantis to advance the pro-registration cause, and only to do that.

He risked a war, taking the calculated risk there would not be one, in order to save lives in the longterm. Whether it was ethical or not, we can dispute all day, but it's certainly more ethical than it might have been if, say, he accepted a request from Attuma and invaded Atlantis with SHIELD to overcome a law of Atlantis Attuma didn't like?

What might have happened had the heroes won the Civil War remains open to speculation.

Oh don't worry, they did. But if the reluctant villains (Cap's people had won), we don't have to remain in the dark- there seems to be a "What if?" one-shot covering that very thing this December!

Debating tip: when you lose an argument, don't resurrect it a few months later and expect to be taken seriously.

Better debating tip; when you lose an argument, then ignore all your opponents points and try to twist their argument, then lose that argument, then don't claim you won when they point it out again a few months later. Not that this is new for you.

[balok]

docdoom said:

He risked a war, taking the calculated risk there would not be one, in order to save lives in the longterm. Whether it was ethical or not, we can dispute all day, but it's certainly more ethical than it might have been if, say, he accepted a request from Attuma and invaded Atlantis with SHIELD to overcome a law of Atlantis Attuma didn't like?

Neither action is particularly ethical. Which, again, points out that Cap and Iron Man were poorly written during the Civil War, which was at the end of the day, an exercise in appealing to fanboys by pandering to their base instincts, without regard for the characters' history. Which was my point.

docdoom said:

Oh don't worry, they did. But if the reluctant villains (Cap's people had won), we don't have to remain in the dark- there seems to be a "What if?" one-shot covering that very thing this December!

Prediction: this will be a What If intended to do the same thing as "What if Dark Phoenix had lived?" back in the day: justify Marvel's editorial decision. I therefore suspect that it will end in the theoretical disaster that Reed Richards predicted, so that we all know that Marvel was "right" to turn their superheroes into government stooges.

docdoom said:

Better debating tip; when you lose an argument, then ignore all your opponents points and try to twist their argument, then lose that argument, then don't claim you won when they point it out again a few months later. Not that this is new for you.

Not just me. You made the case that Cap conspired to draw on forces from Atlantis (under Namor) and Wakanda (under T'Challa) - which considering the long history of adventurism of both men is a far cry from calling it war with either nation. There is a long history of Americans warring against unjust laws (it goes back to at least the Boston Tea Party), including laws passed by its own government. Those who won the Civil War could (since winners write history) make the case that Cap committed treason by involving foreigners, but even they would be hard pressed to call what he did a serious threat of war with either nation. In fact, one might as easily say that Namor joined Cap's forces because of what Tony did.

But believe what you like. That's nothing new for you.

[Doctor Doom]

balok said:

[
Neither action is particularly ethical. Which, again, points out that Cap and Iron Man were poorly written during the Civil War, which was at the end of the day, an exercise in appealing to fanboys by pandering to their base instincts, without regard for the characters' history. Which was my point.

And I disagree COMPLETELY and feel that no matter what Marvel did, you were always going to claim to hate it. Which is mine.

Prediction: this will be a What If intended to do the same thing as "What if Dark Phoenix had lived?" back in the day: justify Marvel's editorial decision. I therefore suspect that it will end in the theoretical disaster that Reed Richards predicted, so that we all know that Marvel was "right" to turn their superheroes into government stooges.

It's funny how every time you're asked to show any book beside Avengers: The Initiative which now displays it's characters as government stooges, you either lie, try to change the subject completely, or else ignore it.

docdoom said:

Not just me. You made the case that Cap conspired to draw on forces from Atlantis (under Namor) and Wakanda (under T'Challa) - which considering the long history of adventurism of both men is a far cry from calling it war with either nation.

Yes, and I was right then and am now. Unless you're going to say America would be fine if the King of Spain descended into New York with a Spanish army to fight a race law at the behest of the Klu Klux Klan, for example.

There is a long history of Americans warring against unjust laws (it goes back to at least the Boston Tea Party), including laws passed by its own government. Those who won the Civil War could (since winners write history) make the case that Cap committed treason by involving foreigners, but even they would be hard pressed to call what he did a serious threat of war with either nation. In fact, one might as easily say that Namor joined Cap's forces because of what Tony did.

One would be wrong, as we know for a fact he joined because Steve Rogers asked him to. It brought things INCREDIBLY close to war. Again, how on Earth can a monarch descending on a country's biggest city with an army to fight government enforcers be seen as anything but?

[overlord]

docdoom said:

Actually, technically it's not a matter of being allowed to join the Initiative. The CSA has been put in charge of the Thunderbolts section, which is the Colorado team and they in their enduring wisdom have decided to recruit and control psychopaths. This is something which Iron Man and basically all pro-reg heroes are STRONGLY against but have no control over at this point. It should be noted that some were deployed in the civil war during a period where things were absolutely desperate and the pro-reggers needed people with experience in superhuman combat, however then they agreed to do so, and they were strongly regulated and never once went out of control, and it was only for a very brief period of time during which they were deployed exactly twice, as a last resort. Then the CSA got hands on them and went mad.

So wait, Stark is the head of SHIELD but he doesn't have enough clout to convince the government that employing guys like Gobby and Bullseye is a bad idea? That seems kinda silly.

[Doctor Doom]

It does indeed, nevertheless that's what the books say. He's expressed his extremely strong disapproval of the Thunderbolts on at least two occasions, for obvious reasons.

[overlord]

docdoom said:

It does indeed, nevertheless that's what the books say. He's expressed his extremely strong disapproval of the Thunderbolts on at least two occasions, for obvious reasons.

But this kinda shows a flaw in the SHRA, exactly how are heroes more accountable if they under the control of a government that has proven itself immoral, stupid and insane with past and present actions. I mean
how many times has the US government made killer Sentinel robots that end up turning against them?

[balok]

docdoom said:

And I disagree COMPLETELY and feel that no matter what Marvel did, you were always going to claim to hate it. Which is mine.

These men were heroes, once, and behaved poorly during Civil War. I regard that as mischaracterization. You do not. Okay.

docdoom said:

It's funny how every time you're asked to show any book beside Avengers: The Initiative which now displays it's characters as government stooges, you either lie, try to change the subject completely, or else ignore it.

I take this position because the government has all the information it needs to exert absolute control over the heroes, whenever it wants. It can, and will, exert pressure on their families, friends, finances - whatever it has to in order to bring them into line. Before you disagree that governments routinely do this, read about how Ken Starr investigated Clinton.

docdoom said:

Yes, and I was right then and am now. Unless you're going to say America would be fine if the King of Spain descended into New York with a Spanish army to fight a race law at the behest of the Klu Klux Klan, for example.

Sure, if you assume that everything Namor does is something Atlantis does. Marvel history would tend to disagree with you.

docdoom said:

One would be wrong, as we know for a fact he joined because Steve Rogers asked him to. It brought things INCREDIBLY close to war. Again, how on Earth can a monarch descending on a country's biggest city with an army to fight government enforcers be seen as anything but?

No closer than Tony's orchestrated attack on Atlantean diplomats.

Hence the "both men, written badly and mischaracterized" part of my objection to Civil War.

[Doctor Doom]

balok said:

I take this position because the government has all the information it needs to exert absolute control over the heroes, whenever it wants. It can, and will, exert pressure on their families, friends, finances - whatever it has to in order to bring them into line. Before you disagree that governments routinely do this, read about how Ken Starr investigated Clinton.

Actually, to be precise the government does not have it, but I disgress.

Anyway, you point out to me ONE book where they are acting as "government pawns" outside Avengers: The Initiative anmd you have a case. Until you can do that, you're just toally wrong.

Sure, if you assume that everything Namor does is something Atlantis does. Marvel history would tend to disagree with you.

However, if Namor and an ATLANTEAN ARMY do it, it probably has more weight.

No closer than Tony's orchestrated attack on Atlantean diplomats.
.

Guess we disagree again, I think if, say, a Russian who was high in government orchestrated an attack intended to be non lethal but went wrong it would cause a lot of tension tension but nowhere NEAR as much as if Putin invaded New York with an army to assist the Klu Klux Klan in overcoming race laws, you disagree. Okay.

[balok]

docdoom said:

Actually, to be precise the government does not have it, but I disgress.

Sure it does. Tony controls the database, and he works for the government. If they demand the information, he'll have to hand it over or lose his job. But more likely, they've simply made a copy and handed it to the NSA, who will in short order decrypt it. This is what would happen in a realistic world, and that is what Marvel strives to create, now, isn't it?

docdoom said:

Anyway, you point out to me ONE book where they are acting as "government pawns" outside Avengers: The Initiative anmd you have a case. Until you can do that, you're just toally wrong.

Thunderbolts, where they're actually enslaved with nanotechnology, would be one such book. Since the Initiative all work for the government, any book featuring them (such as, I think, The Order) would also be relevant.

And, as I stated above, they have or soon will have all the information they need to make demands on any hero.

docdoom said:

However, if Namor and an ATLANTEAN ARMY do it, it probably has more weight.

How big an "army" did he bring? Was it more than a few squads - a couple of dozen troops? Or was it an army (tens of thousands of troops and the support personnel and equipment). I never saw more than a few dozen Atlanteans depicted. Was it stated somewhere that he brought tens of thousands of soldiers with him?

docdoom said:

Guess we disagree again, I think if, say, a Russian who was high in government orchestrated an attack intended to be non lethal but went wrong it would cause a lot of tension tension but nowhere NEAR as much as if Putin invaded New York with an army to assist the Klu Klux Klan in overcoming race laws, you disagree. Okay.

Keep in mind the victims had no idea the attack was intended to be non-lethal. An embassy is sovereign ground and an ambassador is usually a plenipotentiary of a ruler. An attack on an ambassador is often regarded as an act of war.

You're attempting to minimize what Tony did and maximize what Namor did because this supports your contention that Tony's still a hero.

[The Night Phantom]

docdoom said:

Yes, and I was right then and am now. Unless you're going to say America would be fine if the King of Spain descended into New York with a Spanish army to fight a race law at the behest of the Klu Klux Klan, for example.

How about if the Kings of Spain and France sent soldiers, arms, and other support into America to help local revolutionaries overthrow the government? That happened in the 1770s and ’80s, and I have no objection. (I guess the victors write the history, after all!)

Reductio ad absurdum is a legitimate technique, but it’s not meant to make the arguer look absurd. (I’ll leave it to the curious to discover the Klan’s position on Hispanics, the Klan’s position on Catholics, the principal religion of Spain, the Spanish monarch’s religion, and the powers of the Spanish monarch.)

Those wishing to discuss the appropriateness or lack thereof in bringing foreign powers into the SHRA Civil War might wish to consider the complications that Namor is an American citizen and T’Challa is married to one.

[Doctor Doom]

balok said:

Sure it does. Tony controls the database, and he works for the government. If they demand the information, he'll have to hand it over or lose his job. But more likely, they've simply made a copy and handed it to the NSA, who will in short order decrypt it. This is what would happen in a realistic world, and that is what Marvel strives to create, now, isn't it?

And again we see that you are the only one here who refuses to see a middle ground and must always go to one extreme or the other. There is no info to make a copy of, it's stored in Tony Stark's brain.

Thunderbolts, where they're actually enslaved with nanotechnology, would be one such book. Since the Initiative all work for the government, any book featuring them (such as, I think, The Order) would also be relevant.

Well, one could certainly make an argument here. For example, you specifically implied pawns of the government, and in "The Order", they basically do their own thing. Thunderbolts is... circumspect at best. Well, first it CANNOT be considered slavery, as they consent and are paid, automatically ruling that out. Secondly, of course, that one can hardly say it's the government when it's a tiny branch which is opposed by just about everyone else, including Iron Man, as demonstrated on many occasions. Thirdly, most importantly- and this is really the master stroke, since it's an instnace of rebounding your own argument- the Thunderbolts aren't heroes.

How big an "army" did he bring? Was it more than a few squads - a couple of dozen troops? Or was it an army (tens of thousands of troops and the support personnel and equipment). I never saw more than a few dozen Atlanteans depicted. Was it stated somewhere that he brought tens of thousands of soldiers with him?

That's kind of irrelevant. That's like saying if a King attacksNew York with 100 men, it's all fine and dandy.

Keep in mind the victims had no idea the attack was intended to be non-lethal. An embassy is sovereign ground and an ambassador is usually a plenipotentiary of a ruler. An attack on an ambassador is often regarded as an act of war.

An attack by a King with part of an army is DEFINITELY regarded as an act of war!

You're attempting to minimize what Tony did and maximize what Namor did because this supports your contention that Tony's still a hero.

And vice versa to you with your contention he's not.

How about if the Kings of Spain and France sent soldiers, arms, and other support into America to help local revolutionaries overthrow the government? That happened in the 1770s and ’80s, and I have no objection. (I guess the victors write the history, after all!)

The situations are hardly comparable given time periods, but of course I hardly think Anglo-French relations are what we want to look to to show stable relationships unaffected by other factors.

Reductio ad absurdum is a legitimate technique, but it’s not meant to make the arguer look absurd. (I’ll leave it to the curious to discover the Klan’s position on Hispanics, the Klan’s position on Catholics, the principal religion of Spain, the Spanish monarch’s religion, and the powers of the Spanish monarch.)

Clearly it was an example not meant in any way to be factual. Though of course, one could wonder about Cap's position on foreign invaders and countries with long histories of war with the USA...

Those wishing to discuss the appropriateness or lack thereof in bringing foreign powers into the SHRA Civil War might wish to consider the complications that Namor is an American citizen and T’Challa is married to one.

I heavily doubt Namor is still technically a citizen under US law, and I doubt even further that Ororo Munroe is. But if you want to argue they should be executed as traitors rather than foreign invaders, it's up to you.

[balok]

docdoom said:

And again we see that you are the only one here who refuses to see a middle ground and must always go to one extreme or the other. There is no info to make a copy of, it's stored in Tony Stark's brain.

Where is this written? I can't imagine Tony could keep track of all those thousands of names and related sets of facts with his merely human brain. And it would be foolish to rely on Extremis, as the information would disappear if Extremis malfunctioned. It's almost got to be on a computer somewhere. And that means it can be copied and cracked. Or simply demanded, as Tony is a Federal employee.

docdoom said:

Well, one could certainly make an argument here. For example, you specifically implied pawns of the government, and in "The Order", they basically do their own thing.

For now. But they work for the government and must do what it demands, whenever it demands. That makes them pawns.

docdoom said:

Thunderbolts is... circumspect at best. Well, first it CANNOT be considered slavery, as they consent and are paid, automatically ruling that out. Secondly, of course, that one can hardly say it's the government when it's a tiny branch which is opposed by just about everyone else, including Iron Man, as demonstrated on many occasions. Thirdly, most importantly- and this is really the master stroke, since it's an instnace of rebounding your own argument- the Thunderbolts aren't heroes.

Your original request did not specify they had to be heroes. I provided examples of superhuman government pawns. It doesn't matter who opposes the CSA - it exists and is part of the government. Therefore, those it employs are available to the government as its agents. If the government hated it as much as your comment implies, it would disband it. That hasn't happened.

docdoom said:

That's kind of irrelevant. That's like saying if a King attacksNew York with 100 men, it's all fine and dandy.

It goes to the scope of the attack. An army is a whole different scope than a few dozen men. Hey, if you can claim Tony's good intentions mitigate the seriousness of murdering an ambassador, I can claim that the number of men Namor brings with him is relevant.

docdoom said:

An attack by a King with part of an army is DEFINITELY regarded as an act of war!

My point is that both acts are acts of war.

[The Night Phantom]

nightphantom said:

docdoom said:

Yes, and I was right then and am now. Unless you're going to say America would be fine if the King of Spain descended into New York with a Spanish army to fight a race law at the behest of the Klu Klux Klan, for example.

How about if the Kings of Spain and France sent soldiers, arms, and other support into America to help local revolutionaries overthrow the government? That happened in the 1770s and ’80s, and I have no objection. (I guess the victors write the history, after all!)

docdoom said:

The situations are hardly comparable given time periods

Why?

but of course I hardly think Anglo-French relations are what we want to look to to show stable relationships unaffected by other factors.

Huh? Is that what we were talking about? The scenario I outlined actually did happen, and I think the US, England/Britain, and France are doing fine individually and have (generally) stable relations.

Clearly it was an example not meant in any way to be factual.

Yet it was so convincing!

Those wishing to discuss the appropriateness or lack thereof in bringing foreign powers into the SHRA Civil War might wish to consider the complications that Namor is an American citizen and T’Challa is married to one.

I heavily doubt Namor is still technically a citizen under US law, and I doubt even further that Ororo Munroe is.

Well, according to All-New OHOTMU A to Z: Update #3, published this summer, Namor is; and according to #1, published earlier this year, Ororo is too.