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Post by Doctor Doom on Mar 25, 2007 5:18:10 GMT -5
Well all signs indicate a bigtime villain explosion in the next few years.
That's just it- one of the BEST ideas to come out of Civil War IMO. What happens if the heroes organize into a giant army/alliance? The Villains do the same, of course. And while the heroes may be backed by the US Governments, I can think of a certain Balkan superpower which would be VERY willing to back villains....
....or Marvel could go the Bendis route and use a gangster named THe Hood.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Mar 25, 2007 16:10:48 GMT -5
I think you also have the potential for interstate conflicts, which could be interesting.
i.e. Villians commit crime in Oklahoma. Villians then cross into Texas where the Oklahoma team follows and catches them (in the heat of the chase forgetting to inform the Rangers(Texas' superhero squad) that they are in pursuit. The Rangers come across the Okies squad attacking folks on Texas soil. Hilarity ensues before both teams join forces and give the bad guys a good whuppin.
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Post by bendisbites on Mar 25, 2007 17:59:24 GMT -5
Well all signs indicate a bigtime villain explosion in the next few years. That's just it- one of the BEST ideas to come out of Civil War IMO. What happens if the heroes organize into a giant army/alliance? The Villains do the same, of course. And while the heroes may be backed by the US Governments, I can think of a certain Balkan superpower which would be VERY willing to back villains.... ....or Marvel could go the Bendis route and use a gangster named THe Hood. and then you have millions of people killed when the two end up having the big war/conflict miniseries they have to have. why don't they just blow up the marvel earth because that would be realistic, too?
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Post by overlord on Mar 25, 2007 19:22:49 GMT -5
Well all signs indicate a bigtime villain explosion in the next few years. That's just it- one of the BEST ideas to come out of Civil War IMO. What happens if the heroes organize into a giant army/alliance? The Villains do the same, of course. And while the heroes may be backed by the US Governments, I can think of a certain Balkan superpower which would be VERY willing to back villains.... ....or Marvel could go the Bendis route and use a gangster named THe Hood. Yeah, too bad DC already did that 2 years ago "Villains United" anyone? Seriously does new Marvel actually have any new ideas?
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Post by Doctor Doom on Mar 26, 2007 15:10:52 GMT -5
Wow Overlord, did you even READ the comic you reference/
Villains United was about six minor no-name supervillains who used to be losers. I suspect you refer to the antagonists in it, the Secret Society of Super-Villains.
Well firstly, the premise of "Villains all unite into one super group" was done COUNTLESS times long before that.
Secondly, maybe Marvel will... what's the term I seek.... do it WELL? I mean, the SSOSV had fantastic buildup before Infinite Crisis and played dim squat role in the final plot. I mean, let's examine them for a second:
-GIANT group of all the world's most powerful villains- from the Rogues to the Bat-villains. Excluding only the Joker. -They... meander around a little and wreak some havoc. -The plot is then shifted to a TOTALLY different tack, mostly concerning the fact that the LEADER of the SSOSV has a real plan completely unreleated to the aformentioned SSOSV -Then for NO reason beyond "Hey! It'll make a cool final battle scene!" The SSOV unite for the single most moronic mass assault in comics history. Oh, and then we shift to outser space where there's another kool fight taking place and get like a 2 page summary of what happened in the aforementioned GIANT battle.
So yeah, I think Marvel can actually handle it well.
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Post by Bored Yesterday on Mar 26, 2007 15:52:18 GMT -5
The downfall of the initiative will be bureaucratic red tape. Think of how many times super heroes have saved the day because they happened to be in the right place at the right time, eating ice cream at the carnvial, stuck in traffic, on the subway, on the rooftop -- whatever. The de-centralized model of super heroes benefits from having so many independent operators out on the street. The speed of resopnse is terrific. Under the inititaive, will this still be the case? I don't know, but if the Initiative follows a military model (which it seems to be doing ,but I haven't read ANY of it).
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Post by balok on Mar 26, 2007 17:06:46 GMT -5
Plus there will be those individuals who want to help, but who don't want to share their identity with the leaky sieve that is any government bureaucracy (especially SHIELD, which doubtless has a reputation for rottenness among the power community, since that plot's been done several times). So they'll keep their powers to themselves, avoiding registration and leaving their fellow citizens to the mercies of the supervillain of the week.
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Post by overlord on Mar 26, 2007 21:17:42 GMT -5
Wow Overlord, did you even READ the comic you reference/ Villains United was about six minor no-name supervillains who used to be losers. I suspect you refer to the antagonists in it, the Secret Society of Super-Villains. Well firstly, the premise of "Villains all unite into one super group" was done COUNTLESS times long before that. Secondly, maybe Marvel will... what's the term I seek.... do it WELL? I mean, the SSOSV had fantastic buildup before Infinite Crisis and played dim squat role in the final plot. I mean, let's examine them for a second: -GIANT group of all the world's most powerful villains- from the Rogues to the Bat-villains. Excluding only the Joker. -They... meander around a little and wreak some havoc. -The plot is then shifted to a TOTALLY different tack, mostly concerning the fact that the LEADER of the SSOSV has a real plan completely unreleated to the aformentioned SSOSV -Then for NO reason beyond "Hey! It'll make a cool final battle scene!" The SSOV unite for the single most moronic mass assault in comics history. Oh, and then we shift to outser space where there's another kool fight taking place and get like a 2 page summary of what happened in the aforementioned GIANT battle. So yeah, I think Marvel can actually handle it well. I was refering to the Secret Society genius, I didn't think I did to refer to fact that though secret Six were the stars of Villains United, Villains United as a concept refers to the secret society. Do I have to spell out everything for you? Frankly whether the Secret society was a good concept or not is debatable. Some people liked that storyline and some people didn't. Just like you liked CW and a lot of people here didn't. Though what evidence do you have that Marvel will do this cocnept better? The fact that super villains did jack during CW already makes them look pathetic. When is the last ime a crossover in Marvel actually invovled super villains, rather than just heroes beating on eachother? Seems like Marvel is ignoring its villains, at least DC is trying to do something with its villains. Marvel has turned its villains into jokes.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Mar 27, 2007 10:30:35 GMT -5
I'm not sure if you missed it by vacationing off-planet overlord, but the Red Skull just succesfully KILLED Captain America.
HA HA HA! What a loser joke!
..>Seriously, when's the last time a DC villain did anything as big as what some Marvel villains have been up to for the last few years? Think for a moment.
Who were DC's big villains during Infinite Crisis? They were HEROES warped by DC writers to fit their selective roles (much like people accuse CW of doing). The only part villains played in it was to look menacing or act as red shirts.
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Post by overlord on Mar 27, 2007 15:24:32 GMT -5
I'm not sure if you missed it by vacationing off-planet overlord, but the Red Skull just succesfully KILLED Captain America. HA HA HA! What a loser joke! ..>Seriously, when's the last time a DC villain did anything as big as what some Marvel villains have been up to for the last few years? Think for a moment. Who were DC's big villains during Infinite Crisis? They were HEROES warped by DC writers to fit their selective roles (much like people accuse CW of doing). The only part villains played in it was to look menacing or act as red shirts. Red Skull was one guy, what about the hundreds of villains who did jack during CW? Seriously at least the villains in IC tried something and it took an epic battle to take them down. Most of the villains in CW were nothing more then jobbers, lets look shall we: new Sinister Six, taken care of off panel of the anti reg forces off panel, Hammerhead's group, taken care of by the pro reg forces, off panel. Besides the Skull exactly how have MU's villains been more threatening than DC's villains during their respective crossovers?
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Post by Nutcase65 on Mar 27, 2007 16:00:56 GMT -5
IF YOU TWO DON"T STOP ARGUING I WILL TURN THIS BOARD AROUND AND WE WILL GO HOME!!!!! NO ICE CREAM FOR EITHER OF YOU!!!! can't we all just get along?
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Post by Doctor Doom on Mar 27, 2007 16:17:12 GMT -5
Really? As opposed to that Darkseid fellow who did so much over at DC, or the Joker who waited the ENTIRE crossover to make his move? Let's run through the Marvel majors. (Off-Earth villains don't count, unlike Crisis this ONLY affects Earth and even then only mostly America)
-Doctor Doom: Rebuilding power base from SUBSTANTIAL damage inflicted by Richards -Kingpin: Behind Bars -Green Goblin, Venom, Bullseye: Thunderbolts -...I'm not listing them but almost every single Spider-villain attacked Spidey at some point or was already out of commission -An ENORMOUS number of minor villains were in and then out of the Thunderbolts Army -Red Skull was plotting his Doomsday scheme on Cap -Mandarin is dead and has been for years -Ultron is "dead" and has been for years -Kang is dead and has been for years -Magneto is dead and was depowered anyway -Apocalypse is dead
Okay, so I just went through the arch-nemesises of the Fantastic Four, the X-Men, the Avengers, almost ALL spider-villains, Iron Man, Captain America and they ALL had very good reasons for not being involved or only being involved in minor ways. As opposed to DC, who just threw them all together regardless of how much sense it would make- like the mistreatment of my beloved Rogues in Infinite Crisis.
So you think the villains of the Marvel universe should have decided, despite their ENTIRE histories, to band together and then stage the single worst planned assault in the history of their universe for the purpose of... hoping that after they took out one target everyone else would just give in?
Have you even THOUGHT about just how hopelessly bad the villains' plan WAS in Infinite Crisis? It's only explained in a lone exposition heavy line on page 2 of Infinite Crisis #7 and NEVER questioned! Better doing nothing than being so horribly mishandled.
I think Doctor Doom sitting on his throne in Latveria is more possible than the band of misfits in the most Plot Contrived Alliance of all time staging the worst tactical error they have ever made.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Mar 27, 2007 16:21:54 GMT -5
as much as I hate to point this out. I'm agreeing with Doom on most of this. I'm also surprised that Doom hasn't used Marvels more similar storyline "Acts of Vengeance" as a comparison. That is probably a truer comparison to the DC deal than Civil War.
but still,... play nice
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Post by Doctor Doom on Mar 27, 2007 16:48:26 GMT -5
Well it's naturally to compare DC's treatment of villains in their 2005 crossover to Marvel's treatment of villains in their 2006 crossover than the latter's 1993 one, no? Glad you agree and- WAIT A SECOND, WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU HATE TO ADMIT IT! <Slams nutcase through wall>
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Post by Nutcase65 on Mar 27, 2007 17:02:14 GMT -5
Boy I'm glad you slammed me through that wall, I thought you might be mad at me. Second another point made by my comparison is that to accuse Marvel of copying DC when Marvel already ran that idea is sorta silly. Especially since you can keep going back to both groups and say, well they did then we did it, The main point is this,... I hate ninjas
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Post by overlord on Mar 27, 2007 19:00:17 GMT -5
Really? As opposed to that Darkseid fellow who did so much over at DC, or the Joker who waited the ENTIRE crossover to make his move? Let's run through the Marvel majors. (Off-Earth villains don't count, unlike Crisis this ONLY affects Earth and even then only mostly America) -Doctor Doom: Rebuilding power base from SUBSTANTIAL damage inflicted by Richards -Kingpin: Behind Bars -Green Goblin, Venom, Bullseye: Thunderbolts -...I'm not listing them but almost every single Spider-villain attacked Spidey at some point or was already out of commission -An ENORMOUS number of minor villains were in and then out of the Thunderbolts Army -Red Skull was plotting his Doomsday scheme on Cap -Mandarin is dead and has been for years -Ultron is "dead" and has been for years -Kang is dead and has been for years -Magneto is dead and was depowered anyway -Apocalypse is dead Okay, so I just went through the arch-nemesises of the Fantastic Four, the X-Men, the Avengers, almost ALL spider-villains, Iron Man, Captain America and they ALL had very good reasons for not being involved or only being involved in minor ways. As opposed to DC, who just threw them all together regardless of how much sense it would make- like the mistreatment of my beloved Rogues in Infinite Crisis. So you think the villains of the Marvel universe should have decided, despite their ENTIRE histories, to band together and then stage the single worst planned assault in the history of their universe for the purpose of... hoping that after they took out one target everyone else would just give in? Have you even THOUGHT about just how hopelessly bad the villains' plan WAS in Infinite Crisis? It's only explained in a lone exposition heavy line on page 2 of Infinite Crisis #7 and NEVER questioned! Better doing nothing than being so horribly mishandled. I think Doctor Doom sitting on his throne in Latveria is more possible than the band of misfits in the most Plot Contrived Alliance of all time staging the worst tactical error they have ever made. That just brings up another problem, how are the villains supposed to be threatening, if most the masterminds have killed off and most the street level villains are nothing more than government puppets. Bullseye is more scarey when he is pursuing his own agenda, instead of being a government puppet. I at least give DC A for effort it do something with its villains. When is tyher last time villains were actually involved in a major crossover in Marvel? Why should I trust that marvel is actually going do something with its villains, when they have doing jack with them for years.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Mar 27, 2007 19:53:22 GMT -5
I'm glad you hate ninjas, nutcase65... That proves you're not Bendis in disguise... Still... Doom should have made his presence felt during CW...!
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Post by Doctor Bong on Mar 27, 2007 20:26:30 GMT -5
And, how do the FF fit into the initiative...? Since, like the Avengers, they are based in NYC, I could see some government bureaucrat reasigning them to South Cakalaki...
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Post by uberwolf on Mar 27, 2007 20:37:55 GMT -5
On a totally unrelated note... if Iron Man made special armor to fight nutcase65... would he call it his Nutbuster armor?
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Post by Nutcase65 on Mar 27, 2007 21:13:59 GMT -5
nutbuster,... that's good stuff.
As funny as it is Uber, it's wrong. He wouldn't beat me, he'd steal a strand of my wife's hair from our shower drain and clone her and have her blast a hole through me using her enchanted curling iron. C'mon man, think Marvel.
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Post by uberwolf on Mar 27, 2007 21:15:32 GMT -5
So what yer saying is, your wife is the new Ronin?
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Post by balok on Mar 27, 2007 21:43:32 GMT -5
As funny as it is Uber, it's wrong. He wouldn't beat me, he'd steal a strand of my wife's hair from our shower drain and clone her and have her blast a hole through me using her enchanted curling iron. C'mon man, think Marvel. But he would only sic Clife on you if the traditional helloing you through the nearest wall failed!
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Post by Nutcase65 on Mar 27, 2007 22:03:15 GMT -5
As funny as it is Uber, it's wrong. He wouldn't beat me, he'd steal a strand of my wife's hair from our shower drain and clone her and have her blast a hole through me using her enchanted curling iron. C'mon man, think Marvel. But he would only sic Clife on you if the traditional helloing you through the nearest wall failed! Of course Balok, he has to stick with protocol. It would be insulting not too. Clife,..heh heh. As scary as that sounds,not as scary as the real thing. (of course shes asleep right now so she can't hear me typing jokes about her. Talk about getting smited.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Mar 28, 2007 15:11:32 GMT -5
No fair...!!! How come ONLY the 50 states each get their superteams...? Is there no love at Marvel for our associate state...? What about Puerto Rico... !!!
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Post by Nutcase65 on Mar 28, 2007 15:32:46 GMT -5
If you give any team to puerto rico, then American Samoa's gonna want a team, then the US virgin Islands it just won't ever end.
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Post by Tana Nile on Mar 28, 2007 15:51:07 GMT -5
And, how do the FF fit into the initiative...? Since, like the Avengers, they are based in NYC, I could see some government bureaucrat reasigning them to South Cakalaki... As part of the privileged upper class of superhumans, I assume they get special treatment and will stay put in NYC. Meanwhile, some poor schmuck like Captain Ultra will probably wind up helping Nutcase keep the peace in South Cakalaki. They'll be stationed in a crumbling Motel 6, with a food per diem of $10 a day, forced to subsist on Sonic hamburgers, and make use of Rick Jones old Teen Brigade radio equipment.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Mar 28, 2007 16:01:45 GMT -5
Still... Doom should have made his presence felt during CW...! In hindsight, it wouldn't have been logical. Do I care? No. You're ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!
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Post by Nutcase65 on Mar 28, 2007 16:03:36 GMT -5
And, how do the FF fit into the initiative...? Since, like the Avengers, they are based in NYC, I could see some government bureaucrat reasigning them to South Cakalaki... As part of the privileged upper class of superhumans, I assume they get special treatment and will stay put in NYC. Meanwhile, some poor schmuck like Captain Ultra will probably wind up helping Nutcase keep the peace in South Cakalaki. They'll be stationed in a crumbling Motel 6, with a food per diem of $10 a day, forced to subsist on Sonic hamburgers, and make use of Rick Jones old Teen Brigade radio equipment. you know, I may be setting a dangerous precedent by exalting people when they make fun of me,... but some of these jokes are too daggum funny. Exalt for you. The sad thing is, in my little spot of a town we only have one motel,... and it is a 6
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Post by Doctor Bong on Mar 28, 2007 18:18:44 GMT -5
And, how do the FF fit into the initiative...? Since, like the Avengers, they are based in NYC, I could see some government bureaucrat reasigning them to South Cakalaki... As part of the privileged upper class of superhumans, I assume they get special treatment and will stay put in NYC. Meanwhile, some poor schmuck like Captain Ultra will probably wind up helping Nutcase keep the peace in South Cakalaki. They'll be stationed in a crumbling Motel 6, with a food per diem of $10 a day, forced to subsist on Sonic hamburgers, and make use of Rick Jones old Teen Brigade radio equipment. Come to think of it, I guess we should be grateful to bendis for not having included Captain Ultra in the NEW Avengers (yet...).
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Post by Doctor Bong on Mar 28, 2007 18:20:52 GMT -5
Come to think of it, I guess we should all be grateful to Bendis for not having included Captain Ultra in the NEW Avengers (yet...).
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