One More Day conclusion

[Doctor Doom]

It was a response to the oft-repeated claims that no one except Joe Q dislikes the marriage or sees it as a problem.

In fact, it's been clearly demonstrated there are quite a lot of writers and editors who dislike it and I have yet to hear a single one who likes it. I know Peter David and JMS are neutral, and that's really the closest I've heard.

[woodside]

For me, it's not so much a "who liked and who didn't like" the concept of Peter and MJ being married, but the way they were split up. While, sure, a mind-wipe is different than destroying the events that lead up it, it's also slopping storytelling.

All of those issues of "Amazing Spider-Man" I bought because of "Civil War" and "Back in Black" have lost any sort of emotional impact on the overall story. "Magic" shouldn't be a reason and an excuse. Even in "Decimation," the details of the de-powering of Mutants is explained in detail -- at least the effects of it.

That's my problem with it. It was sloppy.

[Tana Nile]

woodside said:

For me, it's not so much a "who liked and who didn't like" the concept of Peter and MJ being married, but the way they were split up. While, sure, a mind-wipe is different than destroying the events that lead up it, it's also slopping storytelling.

All of those issues of "Amazing Spider-Man" I bought because of "Civil War" and "Back in Black" have lost any sort of emotional impact on the overall story. "Magic" shouldn't be a reason and an excuse. Even in "Decimation," the details of the de-powering of Mutants is explained in detail -- at least the effects of it.

That's my problem with it. It was sloppy.

Well said, W. That's what I was trying to get across in my previous post. It seems like the main problem people have with the storyline is not necessarily the dissolution of the marriage, but the way it was handled. And it's not just the marriage that was dealt with by this ploy: apparently Quesada had a number of 'problems' he wanted to make go away - the revealed identity, the organic web-shooters, etc - and rather than work out a solid, reasonable storyline that would take care of these things, we get a weak, lazy effort.

[Nutcase65]

This may be repeating something said elsewhere, but I want to say this.

I hate it. I hate even more that they dislike the marriage so much.

It seems like everyone in entertainment wants to sell the idea that marriage is outdated and cannot work. Spidey may just be a comic character but I think they did a great job of showing that marriages can have problems, and turmoil, and anger and still survive.

The idea that at the end of the day there is someone who loves you for who you are, not because they have to, not because you are related but because they choose to. and they choose to keep loving you and be committed to you no matter what.

You always knew that when you read spidey, you would see that team. Now, for the time being, that is gone.

I don't like it one little bit.

[spiderwasp]

nutcase65 said:

This may be repeating something said elsewhere, but I want to say this.

I hate it. I hate even more that they dislike the marriage so much.

It seems like everyone in entertainment wants to sell the idea that marriage is outdated and cannot work. Spidey may just be a comic character but I think they did a great job of showing that marriages can have problems, and turmoil, and anger and still survive.

The idea that at the end of the day there is someone who loves you for who you are, not because they have to, not because you are related but because they choose to. and they choose to keep loving you and be committed to you no matter what.

You always knew that when you read spidey, you would see that team. Now, for the time being, that is gone.

I don't like it one little bit.

Amen. Preach on brother.

[Shiryu]

That's an interesting point. I don't think they are trying to say that marriage doesn't work in general (ie for us normal folks) but that it doesn't work well in the comics... and, I'd add, in soap operas or tv series.

In these mediums, the private life, turmoils and problems of a character are always almost as important as everything else happening outside, but with a married character you quickly run out of options. For example, you can only have Peter and MJ arguing, hiding things from each other, saving each other's life and so on for some times, but eventually it becomes redundant, whereas a new girlfriend brings an whole new set of elements with her. I for example loved when Peter and the Black Cat were together, for everything that this continously meant for him.

In short, I can see some truth behind the fact that most writers were unhappy with the marriage situation and wanted to get rid of it. My main complaint is how the "solution" was handled and explained, basically using a huge deus ex-machina plot which doesn't feel "Spider-Man" at all. With a different explanation/plot I could have had a better opinion of this all.

[woodside]

The execution is what killed this story and seems to be a pretty relevant opinion of those out there that disliked this story.

As far as the whole anti-marriage message, I disagree. We've seen Marvel couples in the past fall apart -- ie. Hank and Jan. And one can just look at Reed and Sue for an example of a strong marriage.

[Nutcase65]

woodside said:

And one can just look at Reed and Sue for an example of a strong marriage.

Gonna have to disagree on this. I really and truly think they were actually testing the waters with the Civil war story on this one. I think even this crew is too afraid to destroy this part of our history,

for now.

Or they would do them in too.

The thing is, and some of you sort of touched on this a little. Happy healthy marriages are no fun to write, so why have them. The challenge for a GOOD writer is to make them interesting. Like you said there are only so many times they can certain things. So rather than explore new avenues, they just destroy existing relationships and start from the rubble. That is a cheap and easy way out.

So I more than agree with the points made about execution, I still firmly believe that they are against strong marriage relationships, simply because it's hard for them to come up with ways of keeping it interesting. Although others had been able to.

But again, it's not just comics, it's all aspects of media and even general society.

Again it just comes down to it makes me sad. I liked them together. I always will.

[Doctor Doom]

I think it totally depends on the marriage, Nutty. Some characters work better married, and some don't, and to me that's the long and the short of it. Could you picture them marrying off BATMAN for instance? I think it would be a massive mistake.

Barry Allen is a character who would simply be worse single. It removes some of his character, it restricts his freedom. On the other hand, I can totally see why making Spidey single is a better future for him, because as Tom B says, Peter Parker is about growing up.

And you will never for a second get me to think that they were thinking about splitting up Sue and Reed. Again, it comes down to the writers, and I have not read ONE writer who believes that the FF would be better if they weren't a family as all, whereas there is not one writer who has yet said he believes Peter and MJ are better off married. Certainly they weren't testing the waters in Civil War, if you think that you have clearly never read anything Mark Millar has said about the FF- or McDuffie for that matter. It's not about how easy it is to write a story about a married character, it's about how good that character will be married.

It is a fact that there are stories you can tell with Peter Parker single that you can't tell with him married. And I have not yet heard one concise argument of a story you can tell with a married Peter you can't tell with a single one which wouldn't destroy the mythos anyway like a baby.

In all honesty, most complaints about BNBD have some truth in them, but I sincerely think the "disrespect to marriage" one is rubbish. Because SOME characters are better married, and some aren't, and we do have those strong marriages to build it off.

[Nutcase65]

Sometimes, my dear doomsie, your desire to defend marvel is well put but sometimes it is, as you say rubbish.

you bring up the point of 'strong marriages' Marvel had only 2. and now it's down to 1

The marriage of Peter and MJ was an institution. It all comes down to one thing. Does it take a better writer to build on an existing story or to tear it down so you can just make up something else. Marvel no longer has the talent to keep building from an existing stand point. All they can do is destroy what was and re-build in their image.

In some cases a good thing, in others, not

and it still makes me sad

[Doctor Doom]

But see, here's the thing, Nutty.

To me that's like saying "Marvel only have 1 major black hero, so let's make more for the sake of having black heroes!" If you're creating characters and forcing relationships for the sole purpose of being "different", then you're going to fail. There's a difference between having an outwardly gay character with that as his defining trait and having a character who happens to be gay for instance, and it's the same with marriage.

These marriages are a risky business in comics. Look at the number of marriages broken up by deaths- Jean Grey, Mockingbird, Vision, Marrina etc. So from that perspective, it makes sense as an in-universe thing that not many heroes get married.

But forcing heroes to marry someone, or creating characters to marry heroes off to or whatever, JUST so you can say you have a married hero, is a recipe for failure. If it's a logical extension of the character which doesn't compromise their direction, fine; unforutnately, the Spider-marriage was neither as it was in no way a logical extension of where Spidey had been at the time, and it runs contrary to the character as Stan and Steve envisioned him. Marrying him off just because there aren't enough married heroes... that's cheap.

The marriage of Peter and MJ was an institution. It all comes down to one thing. Does it take a better writer to build on an existing story or to tear it down so you can just make up something else. Marvel no longer has the talent to keep building from an existing stand point. All they can do is destroy what was and re-build in their image.

Not true at all, my dear Nutcase! Even the best craftsman can only do so much with the tools if the mold is broken! Better by far to recreate the mold, even if it means admitting your mistakes before and moving on. Indeed, what you describe is what was done to make Peter marry in the first place- ignore the status quo, ignore character development, shove in something inorganically and thus limit storytelling potential for future writers.

What you want to do is keep something just because it's "an institution", even if it means telling worse stories. That's like saying Cap's return in Avengers 4 was AWFUL because Stan Lee was getting rid of the rubbishy 50s stories and updating the character! Sure, Stan could have brought back the 50s Cap and kept him like that, and technically that would have been the best way to "preserve continuity" and "respect the institution". But it would also have todl many, many, many worse stories.

And again, I have yet to hear a single writer from Marvel or DC or anywhere who says that the marriage was good for storytelling- and I think they probably know a bit more than us about that, don't you?

[Nutcase65]

but again, in this case the mold was not broken. The reasoning was that THEY didn't have the talent to do anything more. They didn't want to put in the effort.

Unfortunately in this issue , you will not be able to comprehend the level that some of us look at this from. Marriage gives you a different viewpoint. It's not a bad thing that you can't understand, but you can't.

[dlw66]

Perhaps the fundamental problem is that Pete should have married Gwen; that obviously couldn't have happened. I always felt, as a reader when the books were coming out, that Pete took to MJ on the rebound after Gwen's death. So maybe the issue isn't if Pete should ever have been married, but to whom he was married.

[goldenfist]

If Stan Lee hadn't left the Spider-Man book he would've had
Peter and Gwen marry eachother but Stan said the fans liked Mar
y Jane better than Gwen.