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Post by balok on Aug 29, 2007 10:50:46 GMT -5
I had forgotten this until a friend reminded me, but... Kurt Busiek, back in Astro City #8 and #9, had the basic plot: a serial killer threatened Astro City and the mayor called for registration of all superheroes (and villains) to help the public feel safe. Subsequently, the mayor was revealed to be a shapeshifting alien infiltrator, and the real purpose of registration was to obtain a list of first targets. After the mayor and the invaders were defeated, Astro City's version of the Act was not mentioned again.
If Marvel does this plot, as a few folks (including me) have speculated that it might, it has rather shamelessly ripped off Astro City. Ripping off a small independent comic would have to be the ultimate "our talent tank is empty" statement.
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Post by von Bek on Aug 30, 2007 9:41:54 GMT -5
If Marvel does this plot, as a few folks (including me) have speculated that it might, it has rather shamelessly ripped off Astro City. Ripping off a small independent comic would have to be the ultimate "our talent tank is empty" statement. C´mon, Balok, Astro City is not exactly a small independent comic, it is creator owned but published through Homage/Wildstorm (now a DC property). Are you taking lessons from Doc Doom about distorcing the facts?  And that arc was clearly inspired in the Kree Skrull War, I wouldn´t call it a rip off (like many do) but still; so it would be ironic, in the end Marvel would be stealing ideas from itself... that would be a proof that the new ideas tank is really empty. |
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Post by Doctor Doom on Aug 30, 2007 13:59:36 GMT -5
If Marvel does this plot, as a few folks (including me) have speculated that it might, it has rather shamelessly ripped off Astro City. Ripping off a small independent comic would have to be the ultimate "our talent tank is empty" statement. C´mon, Balok, Astro City is not exactly a small independent comic, it is creator owned but published through Homage/Wildstorm (now a DC property). Are you taking lessons from Doc Doom about distorcing the facts? I think you'll find that like my namesake, I never lie. Doom always keeps his word. Oh, and what does "distorcing" mean? Are you taking lessons from Bendisbites in spelling? In any case, I doubt VERY much that would ever happen. Maybe they sped it along, but it's clear they aren't responsible for it. Because A) That would mean 90% of the American people would have to be Skrulls B) Bendis has already said he doesn't want to mess too much with Civil War- that would be a massive upset. C) It would undermine New Marvel. Which is something New Marvel clearly aren't interested in doing, much to your dismay, I'm sure. |
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Post by Black Knight on Aug 30, 2007 14:41:55 GMT -5
A) That would mean 90% of the American people would have to be Skrulls
Don't understand why it would have to be 90%, how many times have people voted for things because people in authority have said they should.
B) Bendis has already said he doesn't want to mess too much with Civil War- that would be a massive upset.
Yes and Bendis never changes his story, like the time he and Joe Q claimed that bring Hawkeye back was always planned, but they had done interviews, before saying that hawkeye was never coming back.
C) It would undermine New Marvel. Which is something New Marvel clearly aren't interested in doing, much to your dismay, I'm sure.
I suppose it would, but that is really not a bad thing, since Nu Marvel, needs to step back and realize that they are writing themselves into a box.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Aug 30, 2007 15:02:42 GMT -5
A) That would mean 90% of the American people would have to be Skrulls Don't understand why it would have to be 90%, how many times have people voted for things because people in authority have said they should. We've seen COLOSSAL public support from day number one, as is totally logical in this case. We were actually given 90% as an approval rating for the SHRA. This is completely logical, it's like approval ratings post 9/11. The idea that somehow the Skrulls managed to get 90% of the public to back something is ludicrous. Not at all comparable. It's to Marvel's advantage to not undermine their biggest selling event in a decade, and of course there's Bendis's personal respect for Millar, who he believes it would be unfair to if he were to radically alter CW. It's in everyone's best interests at Marvel to keep those two friends, not to mention that it wouldn't exactly add too much to Bendis's own plot. All loss, no gain. Not at all. The box is illusory, they've opened up more storytelling potential than ever before with most of their changes. |
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Post by Black Knight on Aug 30, 2007 15:11:01 GMT -5
A) That would mean 90% of the American people would have to be Skrulls Don't understand why it would have to be 90%, how many times have people voted for things because people in authority have said they should. You must have been reading different comics then I was, because I don't remember colossal public support. Can you point that out in a comic to me. Not at all comparable. It's to Marvel's advantage to not undermine their biggest selling event in a decade, and of course there's Bendis's personal respect for Millar, who he believes it would be unfair to if he were to radically alter CW. It's in everyone's best interests at Marvel to keep those two friends, not to mention that it wouldn't exactly add too much to Bendis's own plot. All loss, no gain. Whatever you want to think. Marvel has undermined it self several times in the past. Not at all. The box is illusory, they've opened up more storytelling potential than ever before with most of their changes.[/color] So what amazing stories are they going to tell.. Hmm they could tell all about how the superheroes are now goverment cops. I think that will get old really quick. Don't you.... Oh well, as usually, you will defend Nu Marvel to the death.. Enjoy it, eventually it will swing back. |
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Post by Doctor Doom on Aug 30, 2007 15:41:25 GMT -5
You must have been reading different comics then I was, because I don't remember colossal public support. Can you point that out in a comic to me. Yes. Several dozen actually. In fact, pretty much read any issue of the main series. Or a very large number of tie-ins. In fact the lowest popularity we EVER see the SHRA at is 65% in the Winter SOldier Special, and Frontline #11 tells us that number soon soars again. Iron Man refers it it as having a 90% public backing rating once. Hell, why do you think Cap was tackled in Civil War #7? This isn't something I can make up. This is something which is a huge theme in basically all of the crossover. Usually with some form of actual gain. It might if they were telling that at all. Let's take a quick check- Spider-Man Titles- Nope Fantastic Four- Nope Avengers The Initiative- Yup Mighty Avengers- Nope New Avengers- Nope Black Panther- Nope Cap- Nope Thor Iron Man- Nope Vast line of X-men books- Nope So basically, they're telling that story in... one series. And as usual, you will attack it even when there's no clear reason. Yes, yes, it will swing back to simpler story telling, less layers, less characterization, less depth, I'm sure it will. But when it does... at least I'll have a few years of issues to re-read.  |
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Post by bendisbites on Aug 30, 2007 17:02:41 GMT -5
Oh, and what does "distorcing" mean? Are you taking lessons from Bendisbites in spelling? I don't even get this as a dig. I'm sure in my almost hundred posts there's a few mistakes, but hardly more than anyone else, and probably fewer than many others. But then again Doc lives in own world where most of his posts actually have some relevance other his own overblown pontification so I really shouldn't expect more than a modicum of fact in his ramblings. |
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Post by balok on Aug 30, 2007 21:09:28 GMT -5
C´mon, Balok, Astro City is not exactly a small independent comic, it is creator owned but published through Homage/Wildstorm (now a DC property). Are you taking lessons from Doc Doom about distorcing the facts? Perish the thought! Size is relative, compared to Marvel, the Homage imprint is not large. And that arc was clearly inspired in the Kree Skrull War, I wouldn´t call it a rip off (like many do) but still; so it would be ironic, in the end Marvel would be stealing ideas from itself... that would be a proof that the new ideas tank is really empty. Yes, it was inspired. Like many of the characters in Astro City: Samaritan = Superman, Confessor = Batman, and so on. I'd call them homages, but others might disagree. |
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Post by balok on Aug 30, 2007 21:15:42 GMT -5
Maybe they sped it along, but it's clear they aren't responsible for it. Because A) That would mean 90% of the American people would have to be Skrulls Not really. If you lived here, you'd know that most Americans don't think for themselves; they believe whatever some "authority" tells them to believe. This could be a religious figure or a newscaster or a politician. Thinking is hard work, so most folks here prefer to let someone else do it for them. You can tell because of the deafening quiet that followed the passage of "The Patriot Act," parts of which should be unconstitutional. Hell, half the country re-elected the bonehead whose administration foisted that piece of crap on us, and they did it because that administration deftly used fear to sell itself. It wouldn't take 90% at all. Just a few key "leaders." B) Bendis has already said he doesn't want to mess too much with Civil War- that would be a massive upset. This is likely a wise decision. When it comes time to unwrite Civil War, this should be handled by someone with more coherence and writing skill than Bendis. I recommend a ferret fed a steady diet of raw sugar and crack. C) It would undermine New Marvel. Which is something New Marvel clearly aren't interested in doing, much to your dismay, I'm sure. Certainly to my dismay. My contempt for New Marvel is a matter of record. |
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Post by balok on Aug 30, 2007 21:18:39 GMT -5
In fact the lowest popularity we EVER see the SHRA at is 65% in the Winter SOldier Special, and Frontline #11 tells us that number soon soars again. Wait... on another thread, you and thew40 wanted to wish Frontline #11 into the cornfield. Now that it agrees with you, it's okay to cite? What a hypocrite! |
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Post by balok on Aug 30, 2007 21:19:49 GMT -5
Yes, yes, it will swing back to simpler story telling, less layers, less characterization, less depth, I'm sure it will. But when it does... at least I'll have a few years of issues to re-read. A patently false and entirely absurd opinion. |
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Post by Doctor Doom on Aug 31, 2007 8:21:45 GMT -5
Heh, you made my day BB. That's pretty amusing, really. Von Bek made a sly dig at me, so I in turn made a dig at you. It was a joke, nothing more, and I thought of you because I notice you make a few more spelling mistakes than some. The irony here is that you're the one who complained before about taking things far too seriously, and now because I made a side comment as a jest, you insult me. Heh. Not really. If you lived here, you'd know that most Americans don't think for themselves; they believe whatever some "authority" tells them to believe. This could be a religious figure or a newscaster or a politician. Thinking is hard work, so most folks here prefer to let someone else do it for them. You can tell because of the deafening quiet that followed the passage of "The Patriot Act," parts of which should be unconstitutional. Hell, half the country re-elected the bonehead whose administration foisted that piece of crap on us, and they did it because that administration deftly used fear to sell itself. Indeed, but this isn't exactly a narrow thing. This is a 90% rating, and it's not like the government have done that much to tell them about it. 90% ratings don't pop out of nowhere at the behest of a few Skrulls. Heheheh. My my Balok, how inaccurate you are, on several counts. It's clear I dislike Frontline #11, yes. I hope it will be retconned, I have no doubt it will be. But weren't you the one who told me that it doesn't matter whether or not you like an issue, it still happened? I don't ignore the negative points of it. I disagree with them, and acknowledge they happened, but YOU, who said that even if you don't agree with an issue, it happened... you are the one I think is the hypocrite here. Oh, and also with this- The great irony here is that if Marvel today re use a plot or a character or anything, you clal them unimaginative and insult them. When a story you like takes characters based on others, they're homages and respectfully done. Yeah, there's a hypocrite here but it's not me. |
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Post by bendisbites on Aug 31, 2007 10:29:24 GMT -5
Heh, you made my day BB. That's pretty amusing, really. Von Bek made a sly dig at me, so I in turn made a dig at you. It was a joke, nothing more, and I thought of you because I notice you make a few more spelling mistakes than some. The irony here is that you're the one who complained before about taking things far too seriously, and now because I made a side comment as a jest, you insult me. Heh. No, you insulted my spelling skills. I may occasionally lapse into colloquialisms and have fun, using "y'all" or other slang, but slang is often accepted spelling and your inability to understand that doesn't make it wrong. I have a great vocabulary, and knowledge of words so I find your assertion to not be a joke, but just a dig at someone you don't like because he challenges your sense of self importance. Laugh all you want. I still win because I won't spend eight hours arguing various points with twenty different people on this board. There's this giant ball of overheated gas out there (and no, that's not another way of saying "Doom") but rather it's called the sun and I'm gonna go have some fun basking in it with other people. I'll tell you what it's like later because it seems you don't ever leave your computer screen... |
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Post by Doctor Doom on Aug 31, 2007 10:36:01 GMT -5
And again you insult me for no particular reason other than that you disagree with me. My assertion was very, very clearly a joke, as evidenced by the fact that it was in reply to a comment with a " " beside it. I am sorry to inform you that whatever sense of self importance I may or may not possess, you are in fact no particular challenge to it. But seriously, feel free to insult me some more, clearly you enjoy it. |
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Post by bendisbites on Aug 31, 2007 11:46:00 GMT -5
And again you insult me for no particular reason other than that you disagree with me. My assertion was very, very clearly a joke, as evidenced by the fact that it was in reply to a comment with a " " beside it. I am sorry to inform you that whatever sense of self importance I may or may not possess, you are in fact no particular challenge to it. But seriously, feel free to insult me some more, clearly you enjoy it. so if I edit my post and add a smiley face that'll make it all better? a dig is a dig. don't hide behind a smirk and act as if that somehow makes it into a joke. it's a weak defense. that's like going up to someone and saying "you look fat, but I'm just kidding..." and don't get upset when someone responds in kind. not only that, you said in a previous you DON'T think I'm a good speller. So is it a joke or is it the truth? Or you do you get caught up in your own spin and can't tell which is which anymore? doubt I could ever under-inflate your sense of self. going by most threads you tend to think everyone else here is wrong anyway, so why would you listen to me? sigh, Doomsie you just don't know how to win friends and influence people do you? |
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Post by Doctor Doom on Aug 31, 2007 11:53:34 GMT -5
And once again, resorting to the insult....
You were selected at random, as the first person I thought of for poor spelling, for a joke. Was it a dig? Yes. But it was intended as a friendly humorous one and nothing more. Did you see me taking grave offence at Von Bek's dig? Of course not, and if I had anywhere near the arrogance you seem to believe I do, I WOULD have taken offence. Nevertheless, if it will in any way ease your dismay, I apologize most profusely for any implied insult which I assure you was unintentional.
The sad fact of the matter is that, as you said, I've argued with basically all of this site at one point or the other... but I like to think that, except in occasional moments which I have since apologized for, I never resorted to the level of personal insult.
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Post by balok on Aug 31, 2007 11:56:47 GMT -5
Indeed, but this isn't exactly a narrow thing. This is a 90% rating, and it's not like the government have done that much to tell them about it. 90% ratings don't pop out of nowhere at the behest of a few Skrulls. You specifically claimed that 90% of the population would have to be Skrulls and I countered that claim. Since we don't know how the legislation achieved that rating we can't comment in detail on how it happened, or even begin to speculate on how many spin doctors it took. Heheheh. My my Balok, how inaccurate you are, on several counts. It's clear I dislike Frontline #11, yes. I hope it will be retconned, I have no doubt it will be. That's what "wish it into the cornfield" means - that you want it to go away. It's a colloquialism from an episode of The Twilight Zone from a long time ago. Here is where thew40 wished it away, and here is where you did. But weren't you the one who told me that it doesn't matter whether or not you like an issue, it still happened? I don't ignore the negative points of it. I disagree with them, and acknowledge they happened, but YOU, who said that even if you don't agree with an issue, it happened... you are the one I think is the hypocrite here. Oh, and also with this- This comment might have some validity if I'd argued that you were wrong about the 90% approval figure, but I have not, so it is not. The great irony here is that if Marvel today re use a plot or a character or anything, you clal them unimaginative and insult them. When a story you like takes characters based on others, they're homages and respectfully done. Once again, you have constructed a strawman that you can attack. I would make such comments on a story by story basis. I consider Samaritan an homage because as far as I've read, Kurt hasn't retold any Superman stories nearly word for word. Whether Marvel's upcoming Skrull story is a rip-off or merely proof that there are few original plots left anymore for anyone remains to be seen. But because Bendis does such a bad job on team superhero books, one thing we can conclude now is: it won't be well-written. |
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Post by Doctor Doom on Aug 31, 2007 12:14:17 GMT -5
You specifically claimed that 90% of the population would have to be Skrulls and I countered that claim. Since we don't know how the legislation achieved that rating we can't comment in detail on how it happened, or even begin to speculate on how many spin doctors it took. We can at the least admit that a 90% number makes it more unlikely for it to have been completely instigated by Skrulls. Okay. I'm not seeing a point. I despise the issue, I wish it woiuld vanish from the Earth. But I'm still allowed to use the things that happened in it as an argument, aren't I, as long as they did happen? If you'd prefer, I can cite the exact same fact as was in this story from elsewhere, it also appears in the Battle Damage Report handbook. I'm just not seeing the hypocrisy in disliking something while still considering what's in it to have happened. You IMPLIED you disagreed with the 90% rating in your statement that I was being a hypocrite, but maybe that was just me. Okay, if we're both willing to accept this figure then I apologize for my comment about hypocrisy there. ...And I know bendisbites will have a field day with this but I wish to make a nitpick. It's not me trying to score points, it's not in any way an argument, or more than a nitpick, or anything but me being annoying about this, but I do wish to note that your sentence did not make grammatical sense. You said my comment might have some validity, and later said "so it is not". What you did in fact mean was "so it does not". Sorry, but I am irritated by these details. If the SHRA is revealed to be a Skrull plot (I doubt it), it will be WILDLY different than the Astro City story in question, that much I can basically guarantee you. But it's okay, you've just said it's not a rip off as long as it doesn't retell the stories nearly word word for word. Or- *SHOCK*- neither, of course. Well I'd say the first arc of New Avengers in particular, the issues of Mighty Avengers so far and House of M would disagree, but I guess we're all free to come to our own conclusions. |
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Post by balok on Aug 31, 2007 13:53:44 GMT -5
We can at the least admit that a 90% number makes it more unlikely for it to have been completely instigated by Skrulls. Yes, we can. Actually, given what Bendis has leaked about his intentions, I doubt it will be the work of Skrulls at all. My guess is this "invasion" won't be an organized Skrull invasion so much as some number of disaffected Skrulls causing trouble. The former would change the world (as Civil War did) whereas the latter, once dealt with, would leave the world largely alone (as WWH will). Marvel has no reason to reinvent itself ala Civil War until/unless sales fall. Okay. I'm not seeing a point. I despise the issue, I wish it woiuld vanish from the Earth. But I'm still allowed to use the things that happened in it as an argument, aren't I, as long as they did happen? Sure. Go back and look at the original post. That's why the smiley was there - I was mostly needling you. You IMPLIED you disagreed with the 90% rating in your statement that I was being a hypocrite, but maybe that was just me. All I'll say about that is... be careful that your inferences are supported by facts! Okay, if we're both willing to accept this figure then I apologize for my comment about hypocrisy there. I've heard that figure often enough that I think it's pretty hard to dispute it. You said my comment might have some validity, and later said "so it is not". What you did in fact mean was "so it does not". Sorry, but I am irritated by these details. You're correct. |
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Post by Doctor Doom on Aug 31, 2007 14:03:12 GMT -5
Okay well then this argument is more or less over. I apologize again for the hypocrite comment and for taking your "needling" so seriously. Still, I'm sure we shall continue to have many, many, many arguments about this and similar matters in the future, hopefully maintaining cordiality while doing so.  |
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Post by bendisbites on Sept 1, 2007 0:32:19 GMT -5
And once again, resorting to the insult.... You were selected at random, as the first person I thought of for poor spelling, for a joke. Was it a dig? Yes. But it was intended as a friendly humorous one and nothing more. Did you see me taking grave offence at Von Bek's dig? Of course not, and if I had anywhere near the arrogance you seem to believe I do, I WOULD have taken offence. Nevertheless, if it will in any way ease your dismay, I apologize most profusely for any implied insult which I assure you was unintentional. The sad fact of the matter is that, as you said, I've argued with basically all of this site at one point or the other... but I like to think that, except in occasional moments which I have since apologized for, I never resorted to the level of personal insult. friendly and humorous one? I find that impossible to believe. among the two words to describe our discussions "friendly and humorous" would not be mentioned by just about anyone. you brought me into the conversation, and then when i called you on it and responded in kind, you spun the story. "i didn't mean it." well then don't say it. as for my "insult" which essentially means you talk a lot and think you're always right...and is the same point I keep making (like you with your odd and unverified assertion that I am a poor speller, which I'd love to see some evidence of... ) I throw myself on the mercy of the jury on that one. I suspect they'll be lenient. I also think given the history of you and the way people used to smite you repeatedly, knocking you to the Negative Zone like you were Blastaar on a yo-yo string until you complained, you probably offended a lot more folks than you think. I dunno if it were me and so many people had a tendency to display dislike towards me, I'd maybe wonder if there was something I could be doing differently. But not Doom. Nope, no matter how many times you tell him he's a decimal or two off, he's still throwing that switch. |
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Post by Doctor Doom on Sept 1, 2007 5:56:34 GMT -5
friendly and humorous one? I find that impossible to believe. Okay. But you're going to ignore the apology I offered as well? Therefore it's wrong to try and bring that in? There was no spinning, it clearly WAS a joke. There was no "calling on it" to be done! We have a jury? Or I just offended a few folks a lot of times? You'll note that even with smites, my karma still naturally climbed to over 20 without any interference. I like to think there aren't many people here who display dislike towards me. I can think of one or two, yourself included. And Balok, tana, spiderwasp and I have... interesting post histories, but I don't think they actively hate me. At least I certainly hope not, as I have nothing but respect for them. And then you have Nutcase, the W, Phantom, dlw, etc, who are immune to such lower emotions as hate. But anyway, I made what was fully intended as a friendly jibe, whether you believe it or not, and you have responded with nothing but insults and attempted mockery. Fine, but I'm not going to sink to your level. I've offered an appology for any insult I may have caused, and that is that. I shall not be continuing this discussion. |
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Post by balok on Sept 1, 2007 8:43:17 GMT -5
I've debated Doom, sometimes heatedly, because I don't agree with him about too much. But hate him? Nahhhh. It's a message board, and people are going to have different opinions.
There's also nothing wrong with being the lone voice. That by itself doesn't say anything about the facts of the matter. I speak from experience: I am an atheist in a country and a family where this is not a popular philosophy. But despite the best efforts of various fundamentalist family members, I have not yielded that position because they have not convinced me rationally that they are correct.
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Post by bendisbites on Sept 1, 2007 12:25:33 GMT -5
friendly and humorous one? I find that impossible to believe. Okay. But you're going to ignore the apology I offered as well? Therefore it's wrong to try and bring that in? There was no spinning, it clearly WAS a joke. There was no "calling on it" to be done! We have a jury? Or I just offended a few folks a lot of times? You'll note that even with smites, my karma still naturally climbed to over 20 without any interference. I like to think there aren't many people here who display dislike towards me. I can think of one or two, yourself included. And Balok, tana, spiderwasp and I have... interesting post histories, but I don't think they actively hate me. At least I certainly hope not, as I have nothing but respect for them. And then you have Nutcase, the W, Phantom, dlw, etc, who are immune to such lower emotions as hate. But anyway, I made what was fully intended as a friendly jibe, whether you believe it or not, and you have responded with nothing but insults and attempted mockery. Fine, but I'm not going to sink to your level. I've offered an appology for any insult I may have caused, and that is that. I shall not be continuing this discussion. I'll leave it others to decide whether or not this is a true display of the facts or merely revisionist history. However, I do think that this point must be made. Would anyone else on this board think that the best way to make friends with someone they don't have a friendly relationship with would be to insult their skills in some way? With an insult that has no veracity? Would anyone else think "that's the bridge to a harmonious new relationship!" I mean I get along with a few folks, Redstatecap, Von Bek and others and with them, I might jest in such a way, but maybe not. So I don't get this whole tack. It just seems spurious.The apology is what it is which is Doom saying "sorry you didn't get my friendly joke." And I just don't think it was friendly. So I'll let it drop too, because I'm going to the beach in ten minutes and then to a Japanese izakaya for some pork belly skewers, so the virtual world really ain't that important. |
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