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Post by humanbelly on May 17, 2009 17:36:57 GMT -5
Wow-- I don't know if you were able to take the time to read that Herb Trimpe article. It stopped me in my tracks. Truly. It was quietly heartbreaking, moving, and by the conclusion, calmly inspiring. Boy, and incredibly, incredibly human. In fact, his humanity, his "real person-hood", is startlingly put on view for us all. Man, I am so happy he was able to re-direct his life at that point. He's likely retired by now, but hopefully he's still at peace.
The agonizing aspect of his journal is that he clearly didn't have a sense of the very real decline in the caliber of his work. I mean, there were probably folks at Marvel fighting to keep him on-staff (in that toxic, disfunctional climate) simply out of loyalty to the stalwarts of better, earlier years. I'm sure the bankruptcy accountants couldn't fathom why he was still drawing a check for so long. I'm glad he did, though. Bless his heart-- I'm almost embarrassed to have such an intimate knowledge of his personal crisis.
Thanks again-
HB
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garada
Great Lakes Avenger
Posts: 40
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Post by garada on May 17, 2009 18:20:51 GMT -5
This thread is a great read, a real treasure trove of Silver Age Nuggets of Knowledge. You guys are some knowledgable nerds, people after my own heart. I have a great love for many of the artists you guys have mentioned, esp John Buscema [How To Draw Comics The Marvel Way was a major eye-opener for me when I was growing up] and Herb Trimpe, but for me it always comes back to The King, Jack Kirby. His influence on both the Marvel and DC Universes cannot be argued; especially in the DCU, where the characters from his 'creator owned' 4th World series have been made into such a HUGE part of DC canon [mainly in the last decade or so], most notably in the DC Animated productions Superman and Justice League / Unlimited, where Darkseid and the rest of the New Gods play a MAJOR part in many of the biggest storylines. Plus, Darkseid is a major player in Final Crisis. Without Kirby, the Avengers [and X-Men and FF] as we know and love them would not be the same, and probably wouldn't even be around today. Anyway, great stuff guys; the books and links you have all referenced should keep me busy for the next several years.
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Post by dlw66 on May 17, 2009 21:16:22 GMT -5
Anyway, great stuff guys; the books and links you have all referenced should keep me busy for the next several years. garada, you prompted me to "go back to the beginning of it all", so I timeslipped back to page 1 of this incredible thread that Tana started two years ago. There is a treasure trove of information, opinions, friendly arguments, etc. I guess if I were to steer a newcomer in the direction of not only how good the people are around here (in terms of their knowledge), but also how nice and accomodating they are, this would be the thread to spend time in. It is always a fun read to revisit this space!!
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Post by sharkar on May 17, 2009 21:55:26 GMT -5
Wow-- I don't know if you were able to take the time to read that Herb Trimpe article. It stopped me in my tracks. Truly. It was quietly heartbreaking, moving, and by the conclusion, calmly inspiring. Boy, and incredibly, incredibly human. In fact, his humanity, his "real person-hood", is startlingly put on view for us all. Man, I am so happy he was able to re-direct his life at that point. He's likely retired by now, but hopefully he's still at peace. The agonizing aspect of his journal is that he clearly didn't have a sense of the very real decline in the caliber of his work. I mean, there were probably folks at Marvel fighting to keep him on-staff (in that toxic, disfunctional climate) simply out of loyalty to the stalwarts of better, earlier years. I'm sure the bankruptcy accountants couldn't fathom why he was still drawing a check for so long. I'm glad he did, though. Bless his heart-- I'm almost embarrassed to have such an intimate knowledge of his personal crisis. Thanks again- HB HB, Yes, I read the article before I decided to post the link to it. My reactions were similar to yours: his words were moving, his candor stunning. I felt privileged to even be reading this. Herb Trimpe is certainly a class act. I felt you (and others) would be interested in reading this and move by it as I was, so I posted it.
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Post by sharkar on May 17, 2009 22:09:46 GMT -5
This thread is a great read, a real treasure trove of Silver Age Nuggets of Knowledge. You guys are some knowledgable nerds, people after my own heart. I have a great love for many of the artists you guys have mentioned, esp John Buscema [How To Draw Comics The Marvel Way was a major eye-opener for me when I was growing up] and Herb Trimpe, but for me it always comes back to The King, Jack Kirby. His influence on both the Marvel and DC Universes cannot be argued; especially in the DCU, where the characters from his 'creator owned' 4th World series have been made into such a HUGE part of DC canon [mainly in the last decade or so], most notably in the DC Animated productions Superman and Justice League / Unlimited, where Darkseid and the rest of the New Gods play a MAJOR part in many of the biggest storylines. Plus, Darkseid is a major player in Final Crisis. Without Kirby, the Avengers [and X-Men and FF] as we know and love them would not be the same, and probably wouldn't even be around today. Anyway, great stuff guys; the books and links you have all referenced should keep me busy for the next several years. Welcome to the boards, garada. You'll get no argument from me about King Kirby. With all due respect to the enormous contributions of Stan, and Steve Ditko, along with the essential work done by Larry Lieber, Don Heck and Dick Ayers in the early days--as you stated, Marvel would not have developed as it did without Kirby. By the mid-60s he was penciling the FF, Thor and Cap (Tales of Suspense) but he was also providing layouts on a fairly regular basis for many of the other features (Hulk, SHIELD, X-Men, etc.). This was Stan's way of ensuring the comics all had an identifiable Marvel "feel" in terms of dynamics and pacing--elements that differentiated Marvel from DC back then. So Kirby's stamp was all over the place while Marvel was experiencing its tremendous growth. .
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garada
Great Lakes Avenger
Posts: 40
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Post by garada on May 17, 2009 22:57:54 GMT -5
Well then Sharkar, you love The King... but do you want to marry him? I know everyone here has probably already stated their favorite Silver Age Artist somewhere in this very thread, but without going through all of that, would anyone who is actively reading and enjoying this thread care to reveal to me who is their 'All-Time Fave of the Silver Age'? Maybe even provide a sentence or two [in Belly's case, a paragraph or three should suffice, sir ]regarding why you love them so much. Thanks again for the warm welcome; this board is lots of fun.
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Post by sharkar on May 18, 2009 9:15:03 GMT -5
Well then Sharkar, you love The King... but do you want to marry him? I'll take a pass on that-- I'm not into necrophilia...
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garada
Great Lakes Avenger
Posts: 40
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Post by garada on May 18, 2009 10:11:06 GMT -5
Well then Sharkar, you love The King... but do you want to marry him? I'll take a pass on that-- I'm not into necrophilia... ;D Fair enough, we can't all be into it. Bu that still doesn't tell me who Sharkar's favorite Silver Age Artist of All-Time is.
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Post by Tana Nile on May 18, 2009 10:16:03 GMT -5
I just wanted to add my thanks to Sharkar for posting that Herb Trimpe article. As someone who has also been "displaced" and is trying to move into a new career, I found it very inspirational. I also think it was despicable that the man was fired through the mail! After all the years he gave Marvel, no one had the decency to at least phone him (if not do it in person)? I guess that gives us some real insight into the management at that point in time.
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Post by Tana Nile on May 18, 2009 10:19:58 GMT -5
Garada, my favorite silver age artist has to be John Buscema. His artwork always conveyed a sense of power and majesty, and yet his facial expressions could be quite nuanced. His anatomy reminds me of classical sculpture - the human body as perfection. When I think of Marvel when I first started reading (around 1971) I think primarily of Buscema and Romita. I love Romita's Spider-Man but I would give the over-all edge to Buscema.
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Post by dlw66 on May 18, 2009 10:32:46 GMT -5
Yeah, OK, the necrophilia, necromancy -- whatever -- is grossing me out.
Anyhow, garada -- I'd encourage you to take a trip down our memory lane and really peruse this thread. As I said yesterday, there has been some great conversation and some wonderful camaraderie in this very thread.
But to give you the short answer, it's John Buscema for me as well. His realism and broad skills -- any genre became his masterpiece. In this thread we discuss his various inkers as well, so check that out, too! ;D
EDIT -- spelling.
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Post by sharkar on May 18, 2009 10:38:12 GMT -5
Fair enough, we can't all be into it. Bu that still doesn't tell me who Sharkar's favorite Silver Age Artist of All-Time is. Well, then, perhaps this (posted yesterday) will shed some light... No one, but no one, is a bigger Colan fan than I am! Colan is my favorite artist bar none from the Silver Age (as I've mentioned countless times in various threads here--not that you would or should know that, HB, since you're new here)...and I agree 100% that he was exprimenting with panel layouts and the like before Steranko and Adams, though he does not normally get the credit they do! And apparently in that mid-1960s Esquire article on Marvel that helped put Marvel on the map, Colan was singled out as Marvel's best, most innovative artist (I have not read this article).
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garada
Great Lakes Avenger
Posts: 40
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Post by garada on May 18, 2009 10:46:42 GMT -5
Gah! I can't believe I missed the bit where you said that, Sharkar! I can be very dense sometimes...
dlw, I have been reading through this thread with great interest, but 20 [long] pages of posts is a lot of information to sift through. Plus I must confess, I wasn't keeping score when I first started... it's only after getting to know what a fine bunch you are that I really started to wonder.
Anyway, thanks for humoring me, folks.
Double JB love, that's nice to see. I wouldn't say he's underrated or obscure by any means, but I'm sure a lot of folks outside this board would've gone for the easy 'Kirby' answer like me.
Is there an obvious thread on Silver Age Writers that I overlooked too?
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Post by dlw66 on May 18, 2009 10:52:32 GMT -5
Gah! I can't believe I missed the bit where you said that, Sharkar! I can be very dense sometimes... dlw, I have been reading through this thread with great interest, but 20 [long] pages of posts is a lot of information to sift through. Plus I must confess, I wasn't keeping score when I first started... it's only after getting to know what a fine bunch you are that I really started to wonder. Anyway, thanks for humoring me, folks. Double JB love, that's nice to see. I wouldn't say he's underrated or obscure by any means, but I'm sure a lot of folks outside this board would've gone for the easy 'Kirby' answer like me. Is there an obvious thread on Silver Age Writers that I overlooked too? No, we've never had a thread specifically dedicated to the writers, although we've certainly discussed Stan's and Roy's (and others) triumphs and shortcomings all over the place. Writers are a little harder to pin down around here -- wish I had a better answer. I think we even hit them here and there within this thread. And I hope I didn't imply that I thought you should stop asking questions -- heavens no! And yes, this thread has gotten to be a mammoth -- but it sure is fun reading!
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Post by dlw66 on May 18, 2009 12:42:42 GMT -5
Wow-- I don't know if you were able to take the time to read that Herb Trimpe article. It stopped me in my tracks. Truly. It was quietly heartbreaking, moving, and by the conclusion, calmly inspiring. Boy, and incredibly, incredibly human. In fact, his humanity, his "real person-hood", is startlingly put on view for us all. Man, I am so happy he was able to re-direct his life at that point. He's likely retired by now, but hopefully he's still at peace. The agonizing aspect of his journal is that he clearly didn't have a sense of the very real decline in the caliber of his work. I mean, there were probably folks at Marvel fighting to keep him on-staff (in that toxic, dysfunctional climate) simply out of loyalty to the stalwarts of better, earlier years. I'm sure the bankruptcy accountants couldn't fathom why he was still drawing a check for so long. I'm glad he did, though. Bless his heart-- I'm almost embarrassed to have such an intimate knowledge of his personal crisis. Thanks again- HB Right on, HB. Just read the article. Wow. Having been a teacher for 20 years, I could really relate to some of his trepidations -- but when I was 22, 23 -- not 60! We are losing a handful of very good teachers this year, wonderful people -- but the oldest retiree is 55! I simply could not imagine going through that type of energy-demand, that frustration on a daily basis at Trimpe's age. And he's right -- the workshop environment, somewhat like band or phys. ed., lends itself to "squirrelly" behavior. And you raise another point about Herb's declining skills. Others have mentioned his somewhat quirky style -- stiff a little, VERY recognizable faces -- but a storyteller nonetheless. But when he was working on the FF Unlimited book that he mentions in the article (I think we've addressed this elsewhere, perhaps in some Image-bashing discussion), I recall thinking how bad the art was. He was trying to ape Liefeld (lord have mercy, why would ANYONE want to do that??) and it was just bloody awful. In a way I felt bad for him then. I feel worse now. There are several accounts of Stan, back in the '60's and early '70's, trying to keep the old hands working -- Stan felt an obligation toward these old timers for all they'd done for the industry, of which Stan was certainly a beneficiary. A few of the names that come to mind are Jerry Siegel and Bill Everett. There's another prominent creator who I want to say, but it's not coming to me right now (and I have none of my resources with me here at school) -- so jump in and help me out if there's an obvious omission here!
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Post by scottharris on May 18, 2009 18:38:26 GMT -5
I believe that Kurt Busiek has mentioned a couple times the raw deal that Herb Trimpe was given at Marvel. If memory serves, Kurt said that Herb was forced into that crappy faux-Liefeld style by the editors at Marvel because they wanted him to draw in a more kewl style. Then he couldn't get any work after that because he was considered to be a derivative hack.
I've never been a big fan of Trimpe's art, but the way he got shafted by Marvel was really unfair.
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Post by humanbelly on May 18, 2009 20:03:16 GMT -5
Whew-- I've tried to get back to this a couple of times today, and both times I managed to crash my post after I'd finished it. !@#$%
Doug, I'm wondering-- could Joe Staton be the other creator you were trying to bring to mind? I know that he came into the Marvel fold for at least a brief time in the early 70's. As an inker, I think.
You've also kindly afforded me the opportunity to pull two threads together in one response (many gratitudes to ya).
Garada's question is about "Favorite" Silver Age artist, I believe, which is really a different beast from whom one might consider the "Best" Silver Age artist. Objectively (and assuming that Neal Adams isn't quite Silver Age elligible), yep, I'd go right along with Buscema &/or Colan as being the best artists. Kirby, while fun, never quite grabbed me the same way.
BUT. . . when speaking of one's FAVORITE artist, all of the intangibles come into play. And that's where ol' Herb is still going to win for me. The run of Incredible Hulk #'s 109 - 123 was THE first string of comic books I owned. I'm sure I read that run more than 20 times during my childhood. To say that that iteration of the character was dear to me wouldn't do justice to the level of resonance that it held for this 10 or 11 year-old kid. Why? Who knows-- I don't think there's a particular psychological thingy-jig to attach to it. But the Hulk became MY character, and Herb Trimpe created him the way I loved him the most. All other artists would be measured against the template he created. Now, that doesn't mean that, even then, I wasn't aware of some of his artistic weaknesses. Herb had trouble with proportion and scale every so often; sometimes he wasn't strong with symmetry; and he had a very strange way of not actually drawing eyes a lot of the time-- just drawing squinty shadows. But let me also say that he was ahead of just about everyone when it came to using unconventional panel sizes and shapes. He also had a great knack for capturing unusual POV's and visual sequences. And he had a very exciting cinematic sense that I imagine he may not have even been aware of. And he really, really was terrific story-teller. I'm working from memory, here, but if someone wants to dig out Incredible Hulk #111 (1968, maybe?), this entire issue (which largely involves the Hulk boarding and partially destroying a fleeing alien starship) stands out to me as a masterpiece of flippin' exciting visual storytelling. The Hulk struggling in the exhaust tube against the full blast of the ship's engines (talking to himself the whole time); the inevitable HUGE explosion; the crew-member crying out, "Port engine shattered!!"; the bridge viewscreen revealing that the &@#$ Hulk is still clinging to a piece of twisted wreckage on the hull. I can all-but-hear the indulgent eye-rolling going on out there, but this gave me goosebumps when I was a kid. . . and it still does as I recount it now. And for those goosebumps, Herb Trimpe will always be my favorite Silver Age artist.
HB
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garada
Great Lakes Avenger
Posts: 40
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Post by garada on May 18, 2009 20:55:58 GMT -5
Thanks again to everyone for humoring me.
Belly, your recollection of classic Trimpe Hulk took me back; his Hulk stuff is also some of my favorite, and it stems from the very same early childhood exposure, reading a big stack of Hulk comics in the back of the car on a road trip, then putting them down on the seat next to me, freeing my sweaty paws to recreate the action with my Mego figures [for some reason, my Spock figure was always a bad guy]. Ahh, good times.
I was most certainly going for 'favorite' over 'best', since there's no right answer to the latter, but there's only one right answer for the former.
- Garada
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Post by dlw66 on May 18, 2009 21:02:56 GMT -5
That, my friend, was an impassioned response.
I have to speak of my favorite guy, Buscema, from second-hand knowledge, as I was only 4 and not yet reading comics when Kirby left Marvel and the Silver Age began to segue into the Bronze Age. But in hindsight, in my opinion one only need look to Buscema's Silver Age output on the Avengers to see the master at work. As the Avengers is my favorite title and he was its visual architect, he's my fave artist of the era.
However, if I respond as you did and tell about the artist that really lit me up as a child (and of course I have to talk Bronze Age now), it would be Mike Grell. His work on the Legion as well as Green Lantern/Green Arrow was out of sight. I didn't yet know Neal Adams, but as many of you might agree, Grell could be the next best thing to Adams. I thought his work on Legion showcased teenagers who looked like my aunt's friends of that early groovy '70's period. Those hairstyles, with the big sideburns and the fashions they wore (of course later known to me as the outfits Dave Cockrum designed) were dynamite (with apologies to JJ Walker!). It was obvious when Grell was off the book for an issue, or later for good.
Others who were favorites of the time were Sal Buscema and the very capable (yet often style-morphing) Rich Buckler. Now I can take 'em or leave 'em, but back then they offered that familiar sense of security.
And HB, I didn't forget your suggestion of Staton... No, I don't think that was who I was thinking of. I wanted to say it was Bill Finger or Jerry Robinson, but in doing a little quick Internet research I couldn't verify those names. I'll try to come up with it -- if indeed I haven't lost my marbles on the whole thought.
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Post by Tana Nile on May 22, 2009 10:09:38 GMT -5
I mentioned my second fave silver age artist is John Romita. But I think from a marketing standpoint - putting Marvel images on posters, cups, t-shirts, etc - Romita's art may be the best-suited for that purpose. He has a clean, economical style with a lot of energy. I thought his Spidey was the best ever, and his Cap was also right at the top.
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Post by bobc on May 22, 2009 11:48:21 GMT -5
I was just reading the Essential Avengers--three I think--and realized something else great about John Buscema's work. He was so good at making battle scenes seem really intense, and always showed off the Avengers' abilities in very cool ways. When the Avenger fought the masters of Evil in issue 52 and 53, I loved how he drew the Panther leaping onto the head of one of the villains, and flipping him into the Radioactive Man! Now THAT was a great showing of T'Challa's abilities! I also loved how he had Goliath smashing through a ceiling! There was a certain drama to his work that was very exciting to me as a kid--it still is!
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Post by humanbelly on May 23, 2009 15:15:41 GMT -5
And y'know, bobc- on the other end of that dynamic scale- a more subtle tool he used particularly well was showing the Avengers in "down" time with their masks/cowls off. I'm not sure if any other artist used this device as well as JB-- and I'm wondering if that's a writer choice or an artist choice? It just speaks wordless volumes about the comraderie & trust within that band. Issue #58 is particularly notable-- as, I believe, T'Challa, Cap, and Hawkeye, maybe? (or is it Hank), have all unmasked to talk to the Vision, praise him, and invite him into their ranks. It's a large part of what makes that moment so deeply personal. T'Challa's face, especially, is so warm and friendly. I think this is solidly an artistic strength, as opposed to a literary one.
HB
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Post by sharkar on May 25, 2009 22:45:13 GMT -5
I agree with your assessment of the scene, HB; it's quite powerful and really contributed to the story. Issue #58 is particularly notable-- as, I believe, T'Challa, Cap, and Hawkeye, maybe? (or is it Hank), have all unmasked... But in your "Hawkeye...or is it Hank?" comment you have also underscored what has always bothered me about those panels, as they point out what I consider a minor "shortcoming" of Buscema--his generic faces, specifically how similar the unmasked Cap, Hank and Hawkeye look here. (And I'd assume having three strapping, blond, short-haired Caucasians on the team is the reason Hank's haircolor was all of a sudden changed from yellow to light orange in the preceding issue--I'd guess Stan or Roy felt there had to be some visual differentiation!). I know using a standard idealized face for all the heroic characters was the norm for most comic book artists back then, and that the George Perezes et al., were still a ways off, so this isn't really a knock on Buscema--he drew absolutely beautiful faces for both men and women--but as a comparison, take a look at Don Heck's Avengers. I'm sure most of us would agree Heck as a less talented draftsman in the traditional sense than Buscema, but in those early Heck Avengers issues he somehow managed to impart some individuality to his main characters--I can't really explain it other than his art was less "realistic" than Buscema's, so perhaps Heck's use of angular, spare lines for eyebrows, mouths, chins, etc. conveyed (at least to me) more expression than Buscema's perfectly molded, usually sensual facial features. Heck's Jan and Natasha and Wanda all looked facially different (and IMO they didn't in Buscema's Avengers, as for example the last page of Avengers #44 or the group scenes at the start of #46--granted, both issues were inked by Colletta, but I've also seen this with other inkers and Buscema). Heck did the same for the men when unmasked; I never confused his Steve with Hawkeye. Still, as mentioned, this is just a minor quibble with Buscema's art. I certainly would never turn down a chance to look at his beautiful faces.
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Post by Shiryu on Jun 12, 2009 12:33:43 GMT -5
Anyone knowing anything about a certain Trevor Von Eeden? (specifically, how on earth was he ever allowed near a pencil). I just came across some of his work on World's Finest and that's the worse art I've seen, anywhere, ever. Leinil Yu is Leonard in comparison Just wondering if he ever was a name at DC, or if he just happened to be a filler artist.
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Post by Tana Nile on Jun 12, 2009 13:38:01 GMT -5
Anyone knowing anything about a certain Trevor Von Eeden? (specifically, how on earth was he ever allowed near a pencil). I just came across some of his work on World's Finest and that's the worse art I've seen, anywhere, ever. Leinil Yu is Leonard in comparison Just wondering if he ever was a name at DC, or if he just happened to be a filler artist. Trevor Von Eeden got his start at DC when he was only 16! He had moved to the US from Guyana when he was about 11. He had submitted some work to DC and though it was rejected, there was a hand-written invitation to come by the DC offices. he followed up on this and wound up working for Jack Harris. His first assignment was the new Black Lightning title. I wouldn't say he's a terrible artist, but certainly he had a less polished look. He has said he was very influenced by Curt Swan. I think he was trying to get back into comics a few years ago, and it seemed like his artwork had dramatically improved, from what I saw.
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Post by Shiryu on Jun 13, 2009 16:24:30 GMT -5
Maybe I just saw a page from a book where he had a bad inker, or had to rush the pencils then. It does look like the colours were put directly on the sketches. PS, it never ceases to amaze me how you, Sharkar and Dlw can pretty much recall the full biography of a second or even third rate artist of writer in the blink of an eye You should arrange them in an encyclopedia or something, it's incredible!
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Post by Tana Nile on Jun 13, 2009 22:49:08 GMT -5
Shiryu, I had read an article about Von Eeden last year. It took me all of 5 minutes to go back and re-check the info! But thanks for the compliment.
I haven't seen a lot of his work but I certainly wouldn't put him at the very bottom of the heap. I have a few issues of Black Lightning, and the art's not fantastic, but it is serviceable. I do think inkers make can make a huge difference, and IIRC, at least the issues I have, Von Eeden was inked by Vince Colletta...and we've discussed before how many artists just hated being inked by Vinnie!
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Post by Shiryu on Jun 14, 2009 15:08:30 GMT -5
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Post by Tana Nile on Jun 14, 2009 20:57:41 GMT -5
Well, I would agree with you, Shir, that's pretty ugly artwork! It doesn't look much like the Black Lightning work he did. His style has changed over the years but it almost looks like he was experimenting with a Bill Sienkiewicz-like style there. And not successfully!
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Post by dlw66 on Jun 15, 2009 9:22:54 GMT -5
Well, I would agree with you, Shir, that's pretty ugly artwork! It doesn't look much like the Black Lightning work he did. His style has changed over the years but it almost looks like he was experimenting with a Bill Sienkiewicz-like style there. And not successfully! But even as Shiryu remarked, it's not too different from some of the work that's around today. And I'd argue that it is better than the work that was on display in the back-up feature of the recently-cancelled Avengers Classic series. I would say for the time that this was published, it was a poor man's version of what Walter Simonson was doing with the Manhunter series that ran as a back-up in Detective Comics. Similar style, although nowhere near as polished as Walter's work (which I much prefer to what he turned out later at Marvel -- I am probably in the minority there).
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