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Post by sharkar on Jan 17, 2008 23:16:32 GMT -5
Speaking of Stan, I bought A/E #74 over the weekend, celbrating Stan's 85th birthday. While I haven't read any of it yet, I did want to report that it looks to be a very interesting magazine -- it reprints 3-4 interviews with Stan from throughout his Marvel career. Most importantly, at least three of the interviews are from the Silver or very early Bronze Ages. Then you have to pick this book up (from reply #56 in this very thread!): Also, Doug and Tana (and anyone else interested in Stan the Man), there's a Stan book that's coming out- -in July I believe- -called "Stan Lee: Conversations (Conversations with Comic Artists Series)." It contains interviews by Stan conducted between 1968-2005. The editor is Jeff McLaughlin. This is a fantastic book that contains nothing but interviews with Stan through the decades, 1968-2005 (from a variety of sources: radio and TV talk show transcripts, university publications, etc.) For the most part the same questions are asked over and over again, about: Stan's background; his life before Marvel; Marvel's 60s success; Stan's literary ambitions; the "Marvel Method"; the artists at Marvel (lots about Kirby and Ditko--his ever-changing comments about these two is worth the price of the book alone); comics and society; Marvel fan clubs; Marvel marketing, etc...later on as the decades progress, there are those questions plus: Marvel and the movies; the Marvel empire, current state of the industry, etc. Stan Lee Conversations: Utterly absorbing and absolutely fascinating.
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Post by Commander Benson on Jan 18, 2008 7:32:30 GMT -5
In response to a private message, I have already thanked dlw66 for making two of my "Deck Log" articles known to all of you here on the Avengers Assemble board. I wanted to do so publicly, as well. From time to time, I Google my name and "Deck Log" or "Silver Age", to see if my articles are being noticed by anyone outside of the Captain Comics site. I was mildly surprised to see two hits come from a forum dedicated to the Avengers, so I had to come over here and check it out. Thank you, sharkar and Tana Nile, for your gracious comments. I take them very kindly. I'm still getting my bearings around here, and certainly intend to post a comment or two, where appropriate. I won't dredge from too far in the past; that would be kind of like jumping into a conversation on a topic that has already been going on for an hour. Anything I have to say has probably already been said. But I'll be keeping an eye on the threads from now on. Bear in mind, my specialty is the Silver Age, though I am conversant on the Avengers and most Marvel comics throughout the 1970's, as well. I know nothing about what has been going on in the Marvel Universe for the last ten years or so (except for what has been bandied about on it over on the Captain Comics forum). So I won't have much input there. Thank you again for your kind comments, Commander Benson
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Post by sharkar on Jan 18, 2008 10:46:36 GMT -5
Welcome, Commander Benson! You have a great website; in addition to the columns dlw posted links to, I recall we also discussed your Showcase Presents Batgirl article and some other topics you've written about. Bear in mind, my specialty is the Silver Age, though I am conversant on the Avengers and most Marvel comics throughout the 1970's, as well. That's my story as well. Like a lot of kids in the 60s, I was an avid fan of the Batman TV show...this naturally led to DC comics...which led to Marvel...and the rest is history...
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Post by dlw66 on Jan 18, 2008 11:12:03 GMT -5
Fans of the Silver Age Teen Titans should take a peek at Teen Titans: The Lost Annual. It's a new book written and drawn to look as if it came out in the early 1960's. In fact, President Kennedy is prominently featured in the story. While I've not read it, the art is very catchy and nostalgiac -- charming, even. The cover is by Nick Cardy, long-time Titans artist. Perhaps the treat of the book is a Cardy sketchbook on the last several pages! BTW, the story is written by longtime Titans and Brave and the Bold scribe Bob Haney. Even at a pricey $5, it may be worth picking up!
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Post by dlw66 on Jan 18, 2008 14:41:51 GMT -5
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Post by Commander Benson on Jan 18, 2008 15:16:44 GMT -5
You have a great website; in addition to the columns dlw posted links to, I recall we also discussed your Showcase Presents Batgirl article and some other topics you've written about. Thank you, sharkar. And while I love to drink in praise as much as the next fellow, I'd think I'd better point out something . . . . Andrew Smith, who goes by the sobriquet "Captain Comics", is an editor for the Commericial Appeal, a Memphis newspaper, and writes the "Captain Comics" column syndicated by the Scripps-Howard News Service. He is also a regular columnist for The Comics Buyer's Guide. He is the founder of the Captain Comics website. I am a U.S. Naval officer, retired after twenty-seven years of service (hence, my honorific is genuine), who writes a (nearly) weekly column, "Commander Benson's Deck Log", about the Silver Age, for the Captain Comics site. I got involved with the site eight years ago because of my Silver-Age expertise and hung around ever since. Outside of a single article that appeared in CBG, I have no published writing credentials. The Showcase Batgirl article I found reprinted on this site is Captain Comics', not mine (though I had quite a bit to say about it, not entirely in agreement, over on his site). I just wanted to make sure the lines weren't blurred. For the record, Cap writes better than me, and he gets paid for it, to boot.
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Post by sharkar on Jan 18, 2008 15:31:00 GMT -5
Sheesh. Today has not been a good day for me, posting-wise. Serves me right for posting at work. I saw the website "Captain Comics" and assumed that it was yours. Now, I see that you have a feature on that website...but it's not your website. Captains, Commanders...what's next--Corporals? Thanks for the correction. And I stand by my previous statements about your LSH and JLA pieces!
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Post by Tana Nile on Jan 20, 2008 20:05:44 GMT -5
Sheesh. Today has not been a good day for me, posting-wise. Serves me right for posting at work. You mean there's somewhere else we can post from?! Love the new avatar, BTW.
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Post by sharkar on Jan 21, 2008 18:41:47 GMT -5
I especially liked his analysis of how Gardner Fox determined the number and composition of the JLA team members in each adventure (Myth 5); as the article points out, the patterns are unmistakable! Fascinating to see the method behind Gardner Fox's madness. The different formula used for the teams are apparent when you read any of those old JLA stories... I especially recall the team breaking up into smaller (more manageable?) groups - which I think they also did all the time in the cartoons as well. Re the JLA sub-teams device: I'd always assumed Roy Thomas' story in Avengers King-Size Special #1 (1967) was patterned after the Gardner Fox JLA-sub-teams, since the story's format was very atypical for Marvel and seemed very obviously based on the JLA's...lo and behold, the Commander wrote a column on that very topic some months ago! www.captaincomics.us/Commander-Benson-s-Deck-Log/JLA-Justice-League-of-Avengers.htmlI think Roy also paid homage (to the Fox JLA) the next year, too, with the alternate timestream story in Avengers Annual/King-Size Special #2...the current Avengers are battling the original Avengers (and in some Avengers' cases, earlier versions of themselves). Not exactly Earth One and Earth Two, but close (though the Marvel story does not invoke the Golden Age, just the earlier Marvel Silver Age). This seems like a nod from Roy to the (then) annual JSA/Earth Two appearances in the JLA book, usually in the summer issues (and coincidentally, the Avengers Annuals, like most of the Marvel Annuals, were then published in the summer too--furthering the "JLA-JSA" homage feel, at least in this reader's mind!)
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Post by sharkar on Jan 21, 2008 18:42:40 GMT -5
Sheesh. Today has not been a good day for me, posting-wise. Serves me right for posting at work. Love the new avatar, BTW. Thanks, Tana! ;D EDIT: I just noticed your new sig line--cool!
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Post by Tana Nile on Jan 21, 2008 21:45:00 GMT -5
Love the new avatar, BTW. Thanks, Tana! ;D EDIT: I just noticed your new sig line--cool! it should be cool - you coined it!! ;D
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Post by dlw66 on Jan 25, 2008 14:02:08 GMT -5
Cover artists -- Nick Cardy at DC, Gil Kane at Marvel, etc. Discuss --
Even today, it is more likely that a book will have a cover by an artist other than the person doing the interior art. How do you feel about that, does it add/detract from the book, and what are some of your memorable Silver or Bronze Age covers done by the above, or other popular cover artists?
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Post by dlw66 on Jan 25, 2008 15:58:16 GMT -5
Here's what I could dig up on-line regarding the Heck fill-in issues: check out this link (below), and scroll down until you get to answer #2, by someone calling himself "Batroc" (I don't think it's anyone here, is it?) I don't know how reliable this is, or if "Batroc" is an insider or "just" a fan...but the explanation he gives fits with what I've read elsewhere: that the Heck art was intended for a giant size issue. To quote "Batroc": "What is ironic about this thread pertaining to Giant Size Marvels is that the Tony Isabella/Don Heck stories presented in Avengers #145 and #146 were to be published in Giant Size Avengers #5 as advertised, I believe, in Giant Size Avengers #4. Of course, the project with new material was scrapped. The EIC put these Isabella/Heck stories in the midst of the Englehart/Perez Kang War epic, contending that Stainless Steve was behind deadline. (Steve still contends to this day that he was not!) and these two stories were published to help Steve “catch up”. Steve’s revenge? To ignore these two issues, leaving Marvel historians to scratch their heads and not be able to place this story in continuity. It contained both the Beast and Hawkeye who would not meet at Avengers Mansion until Avengers #172,,, years later. " goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2005/08/25/comic-book-urban-legends-revealed-13/Wow. I really need to read with more detail. Today I was going over this entire thread (man, there's some GREAT stuff in here -- we're good!!), and came across this post. I actually know "Batroc". He's a school administrator from Tennessee -- really big into Captain America, as you might guess. I came to know him through an eBay auction I was running when I was attempting to sell a page of Sal Buscema Cap art. I listed the inker as John Romita due to Romita's autograph on the page. Another prospective bidder informed me that John Verpoorten was the inker. "Batroc" e-mailed me and offered his assistance, and actually encouraged me to contact Roy Thomas about it, which I did. We also had a few phone conversations. Nice fellow!
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Post by Tana Nile on Jan 25, 2008 22:31:15 GMT -5
Cover artists -- Nick Cardy at DC, Gil Kane at Marvel, etc. Discuss -- Even today, it is more likely that a book will have a cover by an artist other than the person doing the interior art. How do you feel about that, does it add/detract from the book, and what are some of your memorable Silver or Bronze Age covers done by the above, or other popular cover artists? It was very disappointing when the cover artist was a million times better than the interior artist - like buying a book with a Perez cover and finding Don Heck art inside! My biggest complaint about covers nowadays is that they often have nothing to do with the story inside, just a shot of the hero or heroes without any context.
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Post by dlw66 on Jan 25, 2008 23:39:39 GMT -5
It was very disappointing when the cover artist was a million times better than the interior artist - like buying a book with a Perez cover and finding Don Heck art inside! My biggest complaint about covers nowadays is that they often have nothing to do with the story inside, just a shot of the hero or heroes without any context. I would certainly not advocate a return to covers with large blurbs of hype, word balloons, etc. -- but topical covers, as you said, would be a welcome improvement!! I would agree that many of the Kane and Kirby covers on '70's Marvels were a strange way to try to grab the consumer when the interiors were by John Buscema, George Perez, or even Sal Buscema.
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Post by sharkar on Jan 27, 2008 20:46:47 GMT -5
Today I was going over this entire thread (man, there's some GREAT stuff in here -- we're good!!) dlw66- -I cannot believe you did this...because I did the very same thing a few days ago!! I started from page 1 and read on and on. I was amazed at the posts in this thread -- about Heck, various inkers, Maneely (von Bek's favorite), other artists, the Silver, Bronze--and yes, even the Golden Age. I actually know "Batroc". He's a school administrator from Tennessee -- really big into Captain America, as you might guess. I came to know him through an eBay auction I was running when I was attempting to sell a page of Sal Buscema Cap art...Nice fellow! That's wild. He certainly knows his comics history, too.
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Post by sharkar on Jan 27, 2008 21:00:57 GMT -5
Cover artists -- Nick Cardy at DC, Gil Kane at Marvel, etc. Discuss -- Even today, it is more likely that a book will have a cover by an artist other than the person doing the interior art. How do you feel about that, does it add/detract from the book, and what are some of your memorable Silver or Bronze Age covers done by the above, or other popular cover artists? I have always felt that the early-mid 60s DC covers outclassed Marvel's by a mile (the interior content was another story). If I had to generalize, I'd say DC's covers were more symbolic and epic, while Marvel's focused on a specific scene in the story (not in all cases, but in enough cases). I think Ditko and Buscema consistently did some great covers but overall, Marvel's lacked the punch DC's covers did (and when I say DC, I mean the non-Weisinger books. I did not like those covers at all, too pedestrian in design despite Swan or Schaffenberger's beautiful, accessible drawings). So... once I discovered Marvel, I bought Marvel for the stories (the covers didn't influence me one way or the other)...but on occasion, even though I'd basically stopped reading DC, I'd buy a DC book solely because of the captivating cover art. I'll post my favorite SA covers shortly, but if I may I'd like to re-post what I've said on this subject before--on this very thread, a year ago! DC: You know, even though once I became a diehard Marvel fan I basically dropped DC, I always remained impressed by the SA DC covers (I'm speaking of prior to the Adams cover takeover). Years later I found out that most of the covers I'd admired were done by Carmine Infantino and inked by Murphy Anderson. The covers just had such strength, wonderful shading, artful use of body positioning, etc. I mean, has anyone not seen f that Superman-Flash (first) race cover?? And any of those amazing covers with the Spectre on it (usually Showcase and Brave and the Bold). Those covers were imaginative, dramatic and powerful. Much better, in general, than the stories/art contained within (yes, I would occasionally read the issues when visiting my cousins, who were DC fans). I also loved Gil Kane's Atom covers; there's one in particular, with the Golden Age and SA Atoms, that made such an impression on me back then (not sure of the issue number). When Adams took over many of the DC covers, I felt the covers became homogenized...they all had the same look: someone would have their mouth open, in surprise....the bodies were slightly skinner than I was used to... there were raised eyebrows...someone was usually pointing a finger, etc. I suppose this was all in the name of "realism" but something was lost for me. The covers seemed to be trying too hard at this point. And, it didn't help that by the time Adams was doing most of the DC covers, word balloons were being used more. I thought that lessened the impact of the cover art.
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Post by sharkar on Jan 28, 2008 22:13:47 GMT -5
Here are some covers that impressed me as a kid. I saw them on the newsstand, or at my cousins' house (they had a massive collection of DCs) or in advertisements in DC comics. Did I buy these issues? No. But to this day I remember the covers; they're really striking, because of the bold colors; and Kane's beautiful and balletic depiction of bodies. This first one is one of my all-time favorite covers, definitely in my top three. I just read the story recently, in the tpb Crisis on Multiple Earths: The Team-Ups, Volume 2. The cover is far more dramatic than the story! Also in the Team-Ups volume I mentioned.
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Post by Tana Nile on Jan 28, 2008 22:34:23 GMT -5
Sharkar, I remember that second Atom cover well (the one where he is getting shot). My uncle had that issue in his collection. My brother and I used to rummage through all the westerns and sci fi books to find the superhero comics! I also have fond memories of this particular cover: Boy do I miss those ape covers...
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Post by sharkar on Jan 28, 2008 23:01:16 GMT -5
I love those Hawkman covers! I'll get around to posting a few, but here are some Infantino covers that gave me nightmares... This cover scared the sh%t out of me back then ... I was horrified by the sight of Robin turning into a coffin. It's also used for the second volume of Showcase Presents Batman (it does not look as frightening because of the glossy coloring).
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Post by sharkar on Jan 28, 2008 23:30:07 GMT -5
I mentioned earlier that, for the most part, I did not care for Neal Adams' cover work when he became the DC cover artist (Superman, Superboy, Legion, Batman, JLA, GL/GA, almost super-hero book DC published!)--he seemed to use the same expressions, positions, etc. over and over again for the characters...IMO, his DC covers (surprisingly) bland. But d**n, his memorable Deadman covers were another story (not crazy about the word balloons, though).
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Post by sharkar on Jan 29, 2008 0:21:54 GMT -5
Boy do I miss those ape covers... Those were great, weren't they? By the time I got into comics, the apes on comic covers fad had basically run its course (though in '68 DC did publish Angel and the Ape, which I did not read). However... I've told this story before (see the "Gorillas in our Midst" thread, in the General section), but in '67 we were visiting my grandparents during the Easter holiday. During our visit, my grandparents took my sisters and me to the corner store and said we could each select a comic or coloring book of our choice, which they would buy for us. Naturally I wanted a comic!! I don't recall what my sisters ended up choosing, but I was torn between two intriguing covers (and I'm sure you can guess which one I ended up buying! ):
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Post by Tana Nile on Jan 29, 2008 23:39:23 GMT -5
It's funny that almost 40+ years later, Wonder Woman is still running around with gorillas (see her current book).
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Post by sharkar on Feb 10, 2008 21:22:14 GMT -5
The Vanguard book is fantastic and very comprehensive; it contains some material previously published in Comic Book Artist, but apart from that I'd not read any of the material before. It'll be interesting to see what the TwoMorrows book is like...though had I known a book was in the works, I might not have purchased Alter Ego #65 during the recent half-price sale. AE #65 contains a detailed Cardy feature, which will undoubtedly be the focus of the book...also, it looks like the cover to the book is the same as the cover of this AE issue! At any rate, Cardy is a true original and I've always enjoyed his distinctive art.
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Post by sharkar on Feb 10, 2008 21:35:40 GMT -5
I also have fond memories of this particular cover: Boy do I miss those ape covers... Here's another Hawkman cover I've always admired, the cover to Hawkman #6 (reportedly, the exact same picture appears in the actual story). Murphy Anderson was a master at depicting Hawkman's physique - - look at the positioning of the arms and legs, the way the musculature is rendered...(sorry if this sounds salacious--I am referring strictly to Anderson's artistry, of course! ) I wonder if this is the same ape foe that appeared in #16 (Tana's cover)?
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Post by Tana Nile on Feb 11, 2008 17:24:24 GMT -5
I also have fond memories of this particular cover: Boy do I miss those ape covers... Here's another Hawkman cover I've always admired, the cover to Hawkman #6 (reportedly, the exact same picture appears in the actual story). Murphy Anderson was a master at depicting Hawkman's physique - - look at the positioning of the arms and legs, the way the musculature is rendered...(sorry if this sounds salacious--I am referring strictly to Anderson's artistry, of course! ) I wonder if this is the same ape foe that appeared in #16 (Tana's cover)? That's no ape - that's go go gorilla!!!!!
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Post by sharkar on Feb 11, 2008 22:44:13 GMT -5
That's no ape - that's go go gorilla!!!!! LOL! Very fitting...a go-go gorilla during the (infamous) go-go checks era.
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Post by dlw66 on Feb 12, 2008 16:06:26 GMT -5
It is still my intent, before I pass from this life, to read the copy of "Comics Gone Ape" that I purchased at last August's Chicago con. Perhaps there's some illumination within on our feathered, hairy friend above!!
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Post by sharkar on Feb 25, 2008 22:27:36 GMT -5
When Shiryu posted these images on another thread, I was vividly reminded of why I consider Don Heck to be underrated as an Avengers artist. While conceding that Heck's skills diminished in the late 60s and early 70s (from what I've read- -largely due to a myriad of personal problems), I feel that Heck deserves credit for his work during his first stint as the regular Avengers artist. I hope Shiryu does not mind that I "borrowed" his images here, but here's a panel from Avengers #36. - I love the POV here, the way Hawkeye and Natasha are framed by Cap. It's a very cinematic shot.
- Look at Hawkeye here; he's happy here (previously, he was usually shown with a smirk on his face). He's relaxed...this after several issues of being an outsider. Heck really conveys the intimacy between the two, and the fact that Hawkeye is now comfortable as an Avenger.
Here's a sequence from Avengers #38. - I'd say Heck's art was suited to a more intimate type of story, with a focus on individual characters. So while Buscema excelled at group arrangement, I feel Heck was more than adept at drawing one or two characters and conveying their essence(s), as here with Natasha (also true for Iron Man, when Heck was penciling Shellhead's feature).
- I have always felt that Heck--using a minimum of lines--managed to convey facial individuality very well. Look at Natasha's sharp, angled jawline in the last panel; she's no soft, cuddly heroine!
I'll never forget the sequence of panels in Avengers #30, (not shown here), in which Natasha tells Hawkeye she's renounced her evil ways, and he so wants to believe her! The hurt and hope in his eyes is palpable. No one has ever accused Heck of "realism"...but he manages to convey so much emotion with a minimum of fuss. It's to Heck's disadvantage that he was followed on the Avengers by that master of anatomy, John Buscema; but Heck's grittier, stylized approach was also effective. IMO he can be considered an architect of early Marvel along with Lee, Kirby and Ditko. EDIT: Shiryu, any chance you can make these images smaller? I'm not sure how to do that...
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Post by Tana Nile on Feb 26, 2008 14:34:43 GMT -5
The Widow's original costume is actually pretty interesting. Not as sexy as the later Romita-designed catsuit, but it has some details that are attractive. It's obviously better than Ms. Marvel's original bare-stomach outfit! What were they thinking?
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