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Post by dlw66 on Oct 20, 2007 20:10:18 GMT -5
My solution to all of this was pretty simple. Several months ago I stated publicly that I was going to drop NA and not even buy MA. I did it (breaking streaks of buying the Avengers monthly that ran from 1974-1980 and again from 1984-2007). And, after, I really haven't come around many parts of the board listed below the "Classic Avengers" forum. I guess some of the rest of you still buy what you don't like -- I know RSC says he sometimes reads the book in the shop. But my simple solution was that I didn't like it, so I didn't know anything about it anymore, so why would I post an opinion on knowledge that I don't have firsthand anyway? It's kept me from being antagonistic (for the most part ).
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Post by balok on Oct 20, 2007 21:09:31 GMT -5
This is probably the wisest course of action. I suppose I have held out a vague hope that these books would someday get better, but that will never happen as long as Joe Q helms the company and Bendis writes them.
I miss quality Avengers storytelling and want it back - I plead guilty to that.
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Post by uberwolf on Oct 21, 2007 0:55:06 GMT -5
I miss quality Avengers storytelling and want it back - I plead guilty to that. Same here. I had problems with the W a few times as well. He got all bent out of shape cause I pick on the BENDIS!... a lot. It got to the point I left for a month just cause I couldn't stand his arguing. After reflecting on it awhile I realized it was stupid to get mad over something like that. Since then I've exalted him many times for his opinions. Didn't think he'd just pack up and walk off.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Oct 21, 2007 5:03:45 GMT -5
...demonstrate blinding hypocrisy in claiming THEY are the ones who cannot accept other views... Let's not color the truth, Doom. I said that only about 'thew40' and only because HE specifically said it in a post. I'm fairly certain you've said that about me before as well, but even if you haven't, the fact that you said it about HIM, not me, doesn't mean it's not hypocritical when it's something you constantly do yourself. You actually actively advised him to leave if he was dissatisfied here, completely ignoring the fact that the only reason for his dissatisfaction- and mine for that matter- is you. And it's not that your OPINIONS are different from the majority of this site, it's simply the way you express them and your utter and open contempt for anyone who disagrees with you. Oh believe me, I shall take the greatest of pleasures in it from now on.
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fatbob
Force Works-er
Posts: 27
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Post by fatbob on Oct 21, 2007 8:49:18 GMT -5
Is it any wonder so few of the registered users, including me, bother to post? In a thread titled "Mighty Avengers #5 review" we have 2 pages of insults and attempted point scoring with no discussion of the title itself. That, sadly is the rule rather than the exception round here. I haven't yet seen MA #5, (but I will be getting it), so can't add anything useful to any debate yet, but for the record, I have enjoyed most of what I have seen in MA so far. OK, it is far from perfect, but it is the better of Bendis' 2 Avengers books. I now sit back and expect condemnation from most sides for having the audacity to suggest I am enjoying a Bendis book.
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Post by balok on Oct 21, 2007 9:40:13 GMT -5
I'm fairly certain you've said that about me before as well, I invite you to find the post. You actually actively advised him to leave if he was dissatisfied here, I did not. Please go re-read what I wrote; there is no way you can conclude that from an honest evaluation of what I wrote. completely ignoring the fact that the only reason for his dissatisfaction- and mine for that matter- is you. I am far from the only person 'thew40' disagreed with, and he even mentioned at least one other poster. I cannot, of course, comment on your own perspective. it's simply the way you express them and your utter and open contempt for anyone who disagrees with you. I have a strong loathing for Bendis. He has, IN MY OPINION, severely damaged a book I loved all through growing up, to the point where it will take people of real talent considerable time and effort to repair it. Yeah, I'm butter about that. And yeah, I'm baffled by people who like his work. I've already apologized once for expressing my opinons strongly, but if you feel the need for a personal apology, here: I am sorry if the vehemence of my opinions offends you. Oh believe me, I shall take the greatest of pleasures in it from now on. And yet, you're not doing it!
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Post by balok on Oct 21, 2007 9:43:45 GMT -5
Is it any wonder so few of the registered users, including me, bother to post? In a thread titled "Mighty Avengers #5 review" we have 2 pages of insults and attempted point scoring with no discussion of the title itself. That, sadly is the rule rather than the exception round here. I will offer you the same personal apology I tended to Doom: for my part in that, I am sorry. I have enjoyed most of what I have seen in MA so far. OK, it is far from perfect, but it is the better of Bendis' 2 Avengers books. This does not strike me as a particularly ringing endorsement. I now sit back and expect condemnation from most sides for having the audacity to suggest I am enjoying a Bendis book. Condemnation? No. But I am mystified by it. I will say this for what I hope is the last time: 'thew40' took personal offense at the fact I held opinions different from his. On several occasions he told me to sit down and shut up. When I wouldn't, he picked up his keyboard and went him. And I'm not sorry about it. I extend an apology to anyone who feels I have wrong them, EXCEPT 'thew40' who got nothing beyond what he deserved from me.
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Post by Shiryu on Oct 21, 2007 10:03:17 GMT -5
The difference is that it's possible to criticize Marvel and it's creators or defend them without criticizing each other and BOTH sides have been frequently guilty of personal attacks (Myself included.) Maybe now we can do better. Well spoken. Let's all try to make this a new starting point and bury the atchet. I'd also suggest that when commenting a book, we should try to use the quote function a bit less, offering our opinions without picking up and commenting upon every other sentence written by someone supporting the other side. That may help to make the posts feel and appear less personal. Sadly, you are absolutely right. Reducing the OT is another thing we have to work on. I suppose I could delete the posts that go OT, but I'd really rather not go to such drastic measures, and let people be their own referees. Going back to MA #5, I browsed it online and have mixed feelings about it. Things I did like included the art and the fight sequences against Ultron. The best thing however was having Ms Marvel saving the day by having the missile explode in space, she hadn't done much in the team in the previous issues, and I appreciated that it was her who risked everything in this action, since, unlike Wonder Man, she was less likely to survive the explosion if things went wrong. The main thing I did not like was the portrayal of Hank Pym, who could have been used better. In particular, when he talks with Ares his awe seems excessive for someone who spent years next to Thor and has seen nearly everything, from space armadas to subterrean monsters. The thought bubbles also could have been used a lot better, half the time their only purpose seems to be to show that characters don't think what they say (or not in the way they say it anyway).
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Post by dlw66 on Oct 21, 2007 15:01:55 GMT -5
Is it any wonder so few of the registered users, including me, bother to post? In a thread titled "Mighty Avengers #5 review" we have 2 pages of insults and attempted point scoring with no discussion of the title itself. That, sadly is the rule rather than the exception round here. I disagree with the blanket characterization, fatbob. There are quite a few of us who attempt to ask for/post a little knowledge, constructive criticism, historical evaluation, etc. on the comic book genre. If you're not posting, then I'd guess you haven't bothered to check out all of the categories on these message boards. There are really few places where arguments take place, and in those places I'd say the "culprits" are those who have very defined opinions and who have dug in and simply aren't going to budge. The lack of a willingness to be the bigger person and desist is what creates this quagmire (which truly hadn't reared its head to this level since Civil War ended). But if you are just sitting around your computer looking in on everyone else without posting (14 posts in 11 months??), then that is a problem you have to deal with. Better, find a topic of which you can be a part and make a contribution to the community. As for the other 160 or so registered users (who aren't users), one would have to wonder why they registered. Anyone can happen by and just read...
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Post by bendisbites on Oct 21, 2007 19:46:36 GMT -5
Is it any wonder so few of the registered users, including me, bother to post? In a thread titled "Mighty Avengers #5 review" we have 2 pages of insults and attempted point scoring with no discussion of the title itself. That, sadly is the rule rather than the exception round here. I haven't yet seen MA #5, (but I will be getting it), so can't add anything useful to any debate yet, but for the record, I have enjoyed most of what I have seen in MA so far. OK, it is far from perfect, but it is the better of Bendis' 2 Avengers books. I now sit back and expect condemnation from most sides for having the audacity to suggest I am enjoying a Bendis book. Well, just note when the thread went off track and how and who was the cause.
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Post by spiderwasp on Oct 22, 2007 21:08:22 GMT -5
I really really want to like, even love this book. Don't get me wrong. I don't hate it. I don't even really dislike it, but I'm still a long way away from loving it. For one thing, it still just moves too slowly. The characters in this story seem to speak about it as if it is one of the biggest events ever, but it just doesn't feel as big as they seem to think it is. Maybe as a three issue, more condensed story, it would. The thought balloons still bug me because they aren't used very well. They are more of a nuisance than anything else. It seems to me that they should be used to reveal additional information about the character that isn't revealed in the actual dialogue (Without contradicting the character's established personality.) I can't for the life of me figure out how a thought balloon that says "Where the Hell..." adds anything to a spoken line of "Where is he going?" Is it just so that we can know that in the heat of battle, Simon censors his language? So what? It also seemed silly to me that Ares is smart enough to formulate a plan that would require a potion to make one small enough to work as a virus, but isn't smart enough to know what a word like subatomic is. Then you have, as others have noted, Hank Pym in awe of standing face to face with a god after working for years with Thor and Hercules. These things individually are small enough not to damage my enjoyment of the book but thre are enough of them in every issue to become quite annoying.
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Post by balok on Oct 23, 2007 11:29:54 GMT -5
The sorts of things you have noted, spiderwasp, make reading a Bendis penned story feel like sanding my eyeballs (I'm guessing here, I haven't actually sanding my eyeballs). They betray a shallow or poor understanding of his characters and an inept hand with dialogue. That's real bad in a writer.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Oct 23, 2007 14:28:04 GMT -5
I'm not going to "argue", Spiderwasp, but I am going to mention a few things about the different points which explain why I personally don't see them as big issues. For one thing, it still just moves too slowly. The characters in this story seem to speak about it as if it is one of the biggest events ever, but it just doesn't feel as big as they seem to think it is. Maybe as a three issue, more condensed story, it would. Definitely decompressed but to be fair, I think if there were no delays this would feel like it was moving a lot faster. I don't think so. He is the god of *war* and going inside your opponent is a strategy. He doesn't need to know the terminology, just the idea. Heh, this one is funny to me. It's absolutely right in conjunction with this issue, no questions. But I think this is how Hank *should* have reacted to Herc and Thor when they first turned up! "Oh My God, it's... a GOD!" It was way too casual. This is more realisitc BUUUUUT because he's met God's before, it shouldn't happen here and now with Ares.
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Post by dlw66 on Oct 23, 2007 14:44:20 GMT -5
Heh, this one is funny to me. It's absolutely right in conjunction with this issue, no questions. But I think this is how Hank *should* have reacted to Herc and Thor when they first turned up! "Oh My God, it's... a GOD!" It was way too casual. This is more realisitc BUUUUUT because he's met God's before, it shouldn't happen here and now with Ares. Again, I'm not reading the title, and haven't seen the book in question, but I thought I'd toss this out: Don't you think in a world of Marvels, where one can shrink to the size of an ant or grow to a height of 25 feet, and where there has been a tradition of Marvels dating back to 1939, that meeting a god might be somewhat less impressive than you or I might think?
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Post by Black Knight on Oct 23, 2007 14:45:23 GMT -5
Wow doom, I actually agree with you on the second and third parts. As for the first, well unfortuantly the deal in the comic is part of it, but the story is moving very slow. 6 issues to fight this one villian with nothing else going on. I mean what a few hours have happened.
I don't mind decomprision when done right like Walt Simonsons Thor comics, there was story that lasted over a year, but other things where happening, along with this overall story, that lead into the big story. It seems to me with Bendis, he just can't handle more then one plot at a time, so you have 6 issues to finish Girltron, then problem 3 or 4 issues to finish the symbiote story. In the mean time, no other stories are developing.
Oh well, enjoy them comics doom, some day it will swing back to what I like.
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Post by spiderwasp on Oct 23, 2007 14:48:59 GMT -5
But I think this is how Hank *should* have reacted to Herc and Thor when they first turned up! "Oh My God, it's... a GOD!" It was way too casual. This is more realisitc BUUUUUT because he's met God's before, it shouldn't happen here and now with Ares. Agreed. I think that's what they were trying to address in Earth's Mightest Heroes (I'm not looking this up, just going by memory) when they had several of the characters expressing doubt as to Thor's actual godhood. I guess the writer there thought it was all too casually accepted in the early days too. If the characters actually doubted that he was really a god, that might help to explain their lack of awe. Granted that was not the way it was originally depicted which was much more "Oh, you're a god. Well, how about that? I'm a scientist. We never have trouble believing mythology."
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Post by balok on Oct 23, 2007 16:53:55 GMT -5
Did Marvel always take the position that the "gods" were simply extremely powerful beings worshipped as gods by earlier generations? That's the official line I remember.
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Post by Tana Nile on Oct 24, 2007 21:40:01 GMT -5
Did anyone else notice that in this issue, when Sentry finds his wife, his puts his hand over her face, and in one panel, it looks like his hand is glowing or throwing light on her face? Is it possible that the big do-nothing has healing powers?
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Post by spiderwasp on Oct 24, 2007 21:55:32 GMT -5
Did anyone else notice that in this issue, when Sentry finds his wife, his puts his hand over her face, and in one panel, it looks like his hand is glowing or throwing light on her face? Is it possible that the big do-nothing has healing powers? It's possible he has them and doesn't even know it. Of course, it's also possible he has them and used them to bring back all the Avengers when they were killed by Korvac. It's also possible the Grim Reaper really did kill Hawkeye, Wasp, and Giant man back when Black Panther first showed up but Sentry brought them back to life too. Anything is possible when you have the power of a 1000 suns and a 1000 retcons.
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Post by balok on Oct 25, 2007 13:38:37 GMT -5
Anything is possible when you have the power of a 1000 suns and a 1000 retcons. Yeah, in addition to the fact that the writers don't seem to know what to do with him, I fear he'll eventually become Marvel's "hypertime," DC's experiment in how to create a multiverse that amounted to "we can retcon anything we want, anytime we want for any reason we want" - a wretched idea that was, thankfully, retconned away itself! Theoretically, so I am told, there were rules to govern what one might do with hypertime, but if so these were not widely dissimulated. One can hope that Marvel resists that temptation, but I am not sanguine about that given that I have no confidence in the skills of those running it right now.
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Post by bendisbites on Oct 25, 2007 21:09:59 GMT -5
But I think this is how Hank *should* have reacted to Herc and Thor when they first turned up! "Oh My God, it's... a GOD!" It was way too casual. This is more realisitc BUUUUUT because he's met God's before, it shouldn't happen here and now with Ares. Agreed. I think that's what they were trying to address in Earth's Mightest Heroes (I'm not looking this up, just going by memory) when they had several of the characters expressing doubt as to Thor's actual godhood. I guess the writer there thought it was all too casually accepted in the early days too. If the characters actually doubted that he was really a god, that might help to explain their lack of awe. Granted that was not the way it was originally depicted which was much more "Oh, you're a god. Well, how about that? I'm a scientist. We never have trouble believing mythology." Hasn't Hank fought in Asgard and Olympus and seen any number of Gods? Hasn't he seen the face of Death herself? Fought Galactus? Seen the world from the subatomic strata? And yet he becomes a giggly schoolgirl when Ares is in the room? My sobriquet is never more apt than when Bendis does stuff like this.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Oct 26, 2007 5:40:26 GMT -5
Hasn't Hank fought in Asgard and Olympus and seen any number of Gods? Hasn't he seen the face of Death herself? Fought Galactus? Seen the world from the subatomic strata? And yet he becomes a giggly schoolgirl when Ares is in the room? My sobriquet is never more apt than when Bendis does stuff like this. To be fair, I think it's a bit of a stretch to interpret "I'm talking to a Greek God of war!" as becoming a 'giggly schoolgirl'.
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Post by bendisbites on Oct 26, 2007 10:05:24 GMT -5
Hasn't Hank fought in Asgard and Olympus and seen any number of Gods? Hasn't he seen the face of Death herself? Fought Galactus? Seen the world from the subatomic strata? And yet he becomes a giggly schoolgirl when Ares is in the room? My sobriquet is never more apt than when Bendis does stuff like this. To be fair, I think it's a bit of a stretch to interpret "I'm talking to a Greek God of war!" as becoming a 'giggly schoolgirl'. That's too bad as I was expecting everyone to actually interpret that literally. Hank is drawn all wide eyed as if he's in awe, I just don't get that Pym is that prone after all the wonders he's seen in his life.
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Post by von Bek on Oct 26, 2007 12:43:26 GMT -5
Bendis just wanted the creation of another of his buddies (Michael Oeming) to look 'cool', so all the heroes have to be amazed by him. And yes, I know Oeming didn´t actually create the MU Ares, but the version of the character now in MA is definitely his, not the original God of War.
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Post by balok on Oct 26, 2007 12:48:28 GMT -5
Oeming created this version of Ares? That explains a lot. It's all about the kewl with these guys, so it seems. I wish it was about the good storytelling.
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Post by von Bek on Oct 26, 2007 13:02:18 GMT -5
One of the (many) things in BENDIS! team books that irritates me are those obscure characters shoehorned onto the Avengers because they were created by one of his friends. Cage and Iron Fist are there just because BENDIS! likes them, but at least they´re long established Marvel characters, but Echo and (new) Ares... ugh...
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Post by bendisbites on Oct 26, 2007 13:39:17 GMT -5
I only read it in my local comics shop, but I seem to remember Ares puffing his chest about some European war he was involved in. If it was a battle with humans before the advent of weaponry that could really kill a God I'm not terribly impressed. It's like me saying "I was there for the kindergarten fingerpaint fight!" When you're a thousand times more powerful than the other participants, your skill and cunning in that battle is hardly as great a factor. If I'm mistaken about the context, feel free to correct me...
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Post by spiderwasp on Oct 26, 2007 16:34:52 GMT -5
I only read it in my local comics shop, but I seem to remember Ares puffing his chest about some European war he was involved in. If it was a battle with humans before the advent of weaponry that could really kill a God I'm not terribly impressed. It's like me saying "I was there for the kindergarten fingerpaint fight!" When you're a thousand times more powerful than the other participants, your skill and cunning in that battle is hardly as great a factor. If I'm mistaken about the context, feel free to correct me... I hadn't thought of it that way but I looked at the comment in question and yes, you are correct. The exact quote is "I Led the battle of Agincourt against the French. The Hell if I can't break this $%#@ into pieces." I guess Napoleon vs. Magneto would be another good match.
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fatbob
Force Works-er
Posts: 27
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Post by fatbob on Oct 31, 2007 7:56:48 GMT -5
I only read it in my local comics shop, but I seem to remember Ares puffing his chest about some European war he was involved in. If it was a battle with humans before the advent of weaponry that could really kill a God I'm not terribly impressed. It's like me saying "I was there for the kindergarten fingerpaint fight!" When you're a thousand times more powerful than the other participants, your skill and cunning in that battle is hardly as great a factor. If I'm mistaken about the context, feel free to correct me... I hadn't thought of it that way but I looked at the comment in question and yes, you are correct. The exact quote is "I Led the battle of Agincourt against the French. The Hell if I can't break this $%#@ into pieces." I guess Napoleon vs. Magneto would be another good match. The battle of Agincourt was between England and France with the English being heavily outnumbered. Estimates vary as to exact numbers with some saying the English were outnumbered 6 to 1, others saying 3 to 1. Either way, the English won a major victory against the odds. The most charitable interpretation I can make is that Ares is saying since he managed to engineer a victory against overwhelming odds, he ought to be able to come up with a strategy to beat Ultron. Rather an obscure reference I would have thought, but there you go......
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Post by bendisbites on Oct 31, 2007 8:33:28 GMT -5
I hadn't thought of it that way but I looked at the comment in question and yes, you are correct. The exact quote is "I Led the battle of Agincourt against the French. The Hell if I can't break this $%#@ into pieces." I guess Napoleon vs. Magneto would be another good match. The battle of Agincourt was between England and France with the English being heavily outnumbered. Estimates vary as to exact numbers with some saying the English were outnumbered 6 to 1, others saying 3 to 1. Either way, the English won a major victory against the odds. The most charitable interpretation I can make is that Ares is saying since he managed to engineer a victory against overwhelming odds, he ought to be able to come up with a strategy to beat Ultron. Rather an obscure reference I would have thought, but there you go...... I actually looked up this battle after seeing the reference and it appears that the English while outnumbered, actually had several tactical advantages, such as the French armor was getting stuck in mud making it impossible for the ground forces to gain any leverage. In any case, it actually detracts from the brilliant mortal minds who engineered the victory. Is Ares gonna take credit for defeating the British and starting the American colonies next?
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