|
Post by goldenfist on Oct 18, 2007 6:45:53 GMT -5
Here's a review from ign.com about Mighty Avengers #5.
It's no secret that Brian Michael Bendis' second Avengers series hasn't made quite the splash its cousin did. In early 2005 Bendis cooked up New Avengers, featuring a oddball ensemble cast of heavy hitters, obscurities, and some random chick in a ninja suit. Readers were initially on the fence about the nontraditional lineup, but they quickly warmed to the series and helped make it one of Marvel's best-selling books. Two years later he tried much the same thing with Mighty Avengers. The similarities are obvious. Mighty features a slightly oddball cast of characters confronting a Marvel Universe that is much different from the one the original Avengers once fought to protect.
That said, the response has been noticeably less positive than that of New Avengers. Is it due to an overabundance of new Initiative series? Is it Bendis' less than successful attempt at resurrecting the thought balloon? Is it Wonder Man's hideous leisure suit? Or is Mighty's chronic lateness the real culprit? The answer, of course, is a little of all of these. And while none of these flaws are excised from the book entirely (how long was the delay since issue #4?), the overall impression left by Bendis and Frank Cho is a much more pleasing one. This is easily the best issue of their short run.
What I liked most about issue #5 is that the various characters finally start to fall into the roles Tony Stark originally envisioned for them. The Sentry, in particular, is a character famous for standing on the sidelines of a fight. Not so here. I'm not necessarily sold on Bendis' method of motivating the Golden Guardian of Good in this case, but it's better than having him cry on the couch for six issues. The real star of this issue, however, is Ares. If you had the good sense to read Michael Avon Oeming's Ares mini-series, you don't need to be sold on the character. For everyone else, this issue sheds some light on why the rest of us enjoy his recent appearances so much.
Aside from those two, every team member enjoys the spotlight to varying degrees. Unfortunately, for many of the Avengers this involves standing around and peppering their uniquely Bendisy (is that a word?) conversations with thought balloons. Said balloons are as annoying as ever. I give Bendis credit for trying some new. In fact, I think this experiment could work just fine if they were employed in moderation. Hank Pym has a few humorous mental reactions to Ares in their multi-page conversation. Unfortunately, the overall effect is ruined by the appearance of another thought balloon in almost every panel. Do we really need to see Pym think, "Gee whillikers! I'm standing next to the real Greek God of War!" Didn't he spend half his career fighting alongside Thor?
Frank Cho is once again given plenty of blockbuster action scenes to illustrate, coupled with the requisite T&A shots. Good stuff all around, if not quite worth the months of delays. It's also a bit unfortunate that Cho's talent for the anatomical doesn't also extend to the technological. Ms. Marvel has never looked better, but the dozens of Iron Man suits floating around may have seen better days.
By and large this issue is more of the same. More witty exchanges. More annoying thought balloons. More disturbingly alluring shots of Ultron. It won't exactly win over a legion of new fans, but the overall execution has improved to the point where persistent readers will finally start to feel rewarded. Review score 6.8 Passable
Another Take Five issues, seven months, and it's still not over?? This new Ultron business is not interesting enough for six issues, I'm sorry to burst Bendis's bubble. It's a concept that could've supported three, maybe four issues. Six, and you're straight into decompression territory. Welcome to issue #5, where nothing really happens aside from Ares (who's written with the mental capacity of an eleven-year-old) figuring out what an entire staff of S.H.I.E.L.D. agents couldn't. And then subsequently riding a tiny Quinjet thing into Ultron. At this time, I'm not really sure if Bendis is intentionally making Mighty Avengers as corny and inconsequential as West Coast Avengers with his leisure suits and thought bubbles, but, well... let's just say Mockingbird being dusted off and tossed onto this team wouldn't surprise me. To be fair, I'm just being harsh because it's taken so d**n long to come out and the payoff doesn't seem to merit the wait. That aside, there are some pluses to be mentioned. Ms. Marvel has a nice character moment towards the end there, especially in light of her new mandate post-House Of M, and Frank Cho does draw a really great dead body. I know he's to blame for the wait, but this book honestly looks gorgeous. I might not mind as much if the script were a little stronger. It doesn't help that New Avengers has moved along (read: been on time) and basically spoiled the end of this arc (read: the world doesn't end). Also, NA is doing things in its pages that seem to actually matter to the Marvel Universe at large and Mighty is diddling about with a bulbous Jantron. Easily the worst Avengers title out. Review score 6.8 Passable
Does anyone agree with the reviews.
|
|
|
Post by balok on Oct 18, 2007 13:21:19 GMT -5
Let's just say that in my opinion this took even less time to settle into the rut of poor storytelling that is the destination of all Bendis books these days, than did its predecessor New Avengers.
The man's problem is that he believes his own press and the fanbois who gush all over him, without realizing that in a world as large as ours there will be people who find darn near anything acceptable.
I am hoping that the fanbois, notoriously fickle, move on to the next kewl thing so that Bendis may slough back into obscurity where he belongs and someone may reinvent the Avengers.
|
|
|
Post by thew40 on Oct 18, 2007 13:27:34 GMT -5
You're in the minority, you know. This whole site is in the minority.
~W~
|
|
|
Post by balok on Oct 18, 2007 14:47:33 GMT -5
You're in the minority, you know. This whole site is in the minority. Maybe so. The majority isn't always right. In fact, I've discovered over the years that majorities are often shockingly stupid, composed as they are of many who are there simply because someone they know is there. Bendis is a terrible, terrible writer, and this fact will eventually out. A lot of idiots liked Rob Liefeld for a few years; now he languishes in deserved obscurity where he belongs. If you're dissatisfied with your experience here, why stay?
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Oct 18, 2007 16:10:36 GMT -5
I on the other hand feel this title continues to cruise at a level of excellence far above where any Avengers title has been since the Busiek days.
|
|
|
Post by thew40 on Oct 18, 2007 22:31:01 GMT -5
If you're dissatisfied with your experience here, why stay? If you're dissatisfied with this book, why bother reading reviews and commenting? Ass. ~W~
|
|
|
Post by bendisbites on Oct 18, 2007 23:51:08 GMT -5
You're in the minority, you know. This whole site is in the minority. ~W~ We're not, really. First, we're the majority on this site, so we're not the minority here. Next, far more people in the world aren't reading Mighty Avengers than are. In fact, I'd be willing to guess that there are many comics fans who don't buy super hero books as well as fans who only buy based on the artist. Let's not forget that for much of his career that Bendis' books didn't sell exceptionally well, and it wasn't until marvel gave him Spider Man and then carte blanche with several top selling heroes and big name artists that he broke through. I'm betting you give anyone, even Judd Winnick, a top five artist, and his pick of Wolverine, Spider Man and whomever else he wants in a new number one with multiple covers and a huge crossover every six months, he'll crack 200,000 copies sold, too. Now Bendis frequently has the number one selling comic, but I don't see where very many books have had the same advantages to compete with. In fact one of the few books that I believe outsold it was Civil War, which was another case where a writer had huge stars, top artists and free reign to create a huge storyline. And I seem to remember someone pointing out that the best selling books were during the speculator market and they did extremely well. Most of Image's lineup sold better than current Marvel titles Does that mean that Wetworks is better than 100% of Marvel and DC's current lineup because it sold better and by selling better it was more of a majority decision to embrace the book? Or do people just sometimes buy comics that just aren't that great? I believe it's more the latter... And is "ass" a new sign off? Because it seems a bit immature. Just adding my two cents.
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Oct 19, 2007 8:00:58 GMT -5
Incidentally, Bendis made it big with Ultimate Spidey and suggesting it wasn't largely due to him is ridiculous. Bagley was nowhere near as big a name and despite it's promotion, most predictions for the ultimate line were grim. There are PLENTY of spidey writers who never hit it anywhere near as big as Bendis.
Bendis hit it big because people loved Ultimate Spidey, writing AND art, and that's the cold hard truth.
|
|
|
Post by von Bek on Oct 19, 2007 8:41:52 GMT -5
Incidentally, Bendis made it big with Ultimate Spidey and suggesting it wasn't largely due to him is ridiculous. Bagley was nowhere near as big a name and despite it's promotion, most predictions for the ultimate line were grim. Before USM most readers knew who Mark Bagley was, very few knew who that Bendis was. There are PLENTY of spidey writers who never hit it anywhere near as big as Bendis. Bendis hit it big because people loved Ultimate Spidey, writing AND art, and that's the cold hard truth. Plenty? In a new Spider title continuity free and with a very good artist? Can you name at least some of them, please? But anyway, at least you didn´t call anyone "ass" and actually wrote a coherent post, unlike some other poster who seems to have read too many BENDIS! books with name calling in them...
|
|
|
Post by bendisbites on Oct 19, 2007 10:02:37 GMT -5
Incidentally, Bendis made it big with Ultimate Spidey and suggesting it wasn't largely due to him is ridiculous. Bagley was nowhere near as big a name and despite it's promotion, most predictions for the ultimate line were grim. There are PLENTY of spidey writers who never hit it anywhere near as big as Bendis. Bendis hit it big because people loved Ultimate Spidey, writing AND art, and that's the cold hard truth. Todd McFarlane hit it far bigger. And how many other new Spider Man titles had the blessing of being their own entity, able to create their own storylines free of other books continuity and to establish themselves virtually as an island? ... I personally just see again where bendis was given every chance, every opportunity, to succeed and he did with a book that has sold well but not amazingly so. go to the link, scroll down to # 27 which is Ultimate Spidey and it has an overview of several early issues and current performance. Ult. Spidey sells well, but not ridiculously so. pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/08/21/marvel-sales/To say that predictions were grim is pointless because launching a new project with Spidey's name in the title isn't all that hard. There's a built in audience who'll buy at least 25% of the first issue run, making sure you'll at least recoup the printing costs. And with Spider Man you can probably predict somewhere around 45,000 copies sold automatically (both Sensational and Friendly Neighborhood Spider Man move around 50 or 55 k consistently and had nowhere near the publicity or autonomy that USM had). So they've managed to move at a level higher than that. Bagley, while not Steve McNiven is also a fairly well known Spider Man artist and had fans from the other titles. So to say he had not much impact is an opinion of yours I don't share. And really much of what you write is not cold hard truth, it's opinion as you can't just say without a doubt that Bendis could've sold so well without the Marvel hype machine, a new number one and good well known artist. My view? Opinion. Your view? Opinion. Let's not try to make it more important than that, ok?
|
|
|
Post by balok on Oct 19, 2007 11:34:58 GMT -5
If you're dissatisfied with this book, why bother reading reviews and commenting? Why not? And, again, the fact that it seems to irritate you to the point of irrationality is just a bonus. Your opinion of those who disagree with you is already well established. There's no need to reiterate.
|
|
|
Post by balok on Oct 19, 2007 11:38:04 GMT -5
Bendis hit it big because people loved Ultimate Spidey, writing AND art, and that's the cold hard truth. I've already said the man is good in a very specific set of circumstances: a single character, crime/noir storytelling, and little or no continuity worries. Then the man started believing his own press, and started pumping out crap. He has not succeeded on a team book for longer than four issues. New Avengers is crap. Mighty Avengers is becoming crap. Marvel's problem is that it fails to realize what Bendis can do... and what he cannot. The Joke must be held accountable for that.
|
|
|
Post by goldenfist on Oct 19, 2007 12:08:20 GMT -5
That's your opinion Balok.
|
|
|
Post by Tana Nile on Oct 19, 2007 13:36:07 GMT -5
I guess I should preface this by saying "In my opinion" -
I thought this issue was just OK. I have decided to stick with the book until the current arc is done, and then re-evaluate. Although there's definitely an effort being made to make this book fun, the story is just too dragged out for me to really enjoy it. It doesn't help that Cho has delayed the book repeatedly.
Ares' solution to the Ultron problem also did nothing for me, as I've seen this done too many places before (Fantastic Voyage, and even Avengers and Ultimate Avengers).
|
|
|
Post by balok on Oct 19, 2007 14:13:30 GMT -5
That's your opinion Balok. Elsewhere I have explained why I believe this, and no one has yet convinced me that I'm wrong. The man's stories just aren't interesting, and he misuses characters. That's all been explained by a lot of different folks here and never adequately refuted. That Bendis has fans merely suggests that having money to spend on comics is no guarantee of taste or standards. While is may not be his problem that Marvel cannot publish regularly, it's certainly his problem that a four issue (at most) story will take six issues to resolve. That's an inability to pace properly, just one of many Bendis faults. Or, it's done so that the arc fits nicely into a TPB, which is the Joke putting money ahead of... well... everything, as he has repeatedly demonstated. My opinion? Sure. But I didn't form it without basis.
|
|
|
Post by thew40 on Oct 19, 2007 15:18:41 GMT -5
Your opinion of those who disagree with you is already well established. There's no need to reiterate. You're the one who told me to leave the site. So, yeah, for that, I'm calling you an ass. ~W~
|
|
|
Post by Shiryu on Oct 19, 2007 16:48:06 GMT -5
Right, I suppose this explains the other post in the General thread... I won't take action in regards to this, since, despite Balok's posts not being friendly, W's decision to leave was his own. Just dropping the topic would have been better (for either), but I suppose this was bound to happen, things had been building up for way too much time. This being said, in the future it would be better to word the opinions in a less aggressive way. We are already the forum with the lowest number of active members I've ever seen around (do we make 15 regulars nowadays?), if a few more leave, we can just as well close down
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Oct 19, 2007 17:19:57 GMT -5
That Bendis has fans merely suggests that having money to spend on comics is no guarantee of taste or standards. This may be one of the reasons the w left. Because you are quite the paragon of hypocrisy, as you *Constantly* berate others for "forcing their opinion" while outright insulting anyone who likes this work and refusing to even acknowledge the possibility it's a DIFFERENT taste- for you, it's just no taste at all.
|
|
|
Post by balok on Oct 19, 2007 17:42:46 GMT -5
You're the one who told me to leave the site. I told you no such thing, and anyone who looks at what I wrote objectively can see that. If you feel the need to leave the boards, that's your decision. But don't lie about the reason.
|
|
|
Post by balok on Oct 19, 2007 17:49:35 GMT -5
This may be one of the reasons the w left. "thew40" left because he chose to. No one "makes" someone leave (or stay) on a frickin' message board for the luvva Pete! Please don't blame me for his decisions. Because you are quite the paragon of hypocrisy, as you *Constantly* berate others for "forcing their opinion" while outright insulting anyone who likes this work and refusing to even acknowledge the possibility it's a DIFFERENT taste- for you, it's just no taste at all. Actually, I really only ever said nasty things (and they weren't even that nasty) to "thew40," and only after he begin what has amounted to a low level flame war. But don't take my word for it. There was a thread a few months back were a half dozen or more folks called him on a comment he made that amounted to his assertion that people who held different opinions than his should shut up and sit down. *Everything* subjective on a message board is assumed prefaced with "in my opinion." I kind of take that for granted. It's my opinion that fans of Bendis' New Avengers work have no taste. Happy, now? No, I don't think it's "a different taste" and I've gone into why on previous threads. "thew40" has not, unless I missed it, refuted my claims of poor characterization and inept pacing. I don't know why he likes Bendis on the Avengers books. I don't know why anyone does.
|
|
|
Post by bendisbites on Oct 19, 2007 22:30:27 GMT -5
I believe that many of the regular posters got tired of having to defend their views all the time. I notice guys like Rex, Black Knight, Redstatecap who don't come as often had to slough through page after page of conflict because they don't enjoy the current direction of the Avengers. Here's the way I look at it. If I were a Republican and I walked into a Democratic meeting place and got into political arguments every five minutes, and the majority of people disagreed with me, I would not be surprised by it. Yet Doom and W come in here and are shocked given the tone and tenor of the board for the most part that their views aren't shared by the majority of people here. I just don't get that. Oh and the Avengersforever website is complaining about the same exact thing where the number of participants is so low they may shut down and that site is much more Bendis positive. So maybe it's just a general malaise that many Avengers fans have and maybe it's mostly Bendis fans and completist collectors who are buying the books, thus they're not visiting Avengers sites?
|
|
|
Post by bendisbites on Oct 19, 2007 22:32:23 GMT -5
And I exalted you, Balok. I don't think you deserved to be called an ass, so keep on rocking.
|
|
|
Post by spiderwasp on Oct 20, 2007 1:35:30 GMT -5
I won't say I'm happy to see anyone leave, but I will say that I understand where Balok was coming from in this argument and there was much more to W's decision than just this one conflict. I've had several occasions whereupon I made what I considered to be simple comments that W jumped on with anger and threads get sidetracked by anger and name calling. I welcome any and all opinions, even those I disagree with but I find the friendly tone with which we've all been posting lately refreshing. I even enjoy a good old Doom debate because I can always count on him to provide real reasons for his disagreements rather than just comments like "You're an ass" or "This is what I hate about coming here." My hope is that we can actually get a couple more people in that do disagree with the majority of us (Even if we are the minority outside, though I actually don't think that's true.) As many of us have often tried to get W to understand, debate is fun. A bunch of people who always agree can get old quickly, though it is also refreshing to know that I am not alone in my resentment of the way that Marvel, and particularly Bendis have treated us long-time fans. I wish W well but can't say that I'll really miss being called an old fart or a hater (Though congrats are in order to Balok since I was never able to advance so far as ass.)
|
|
|
Post by von Bek on Oct 20, 2007 13:39:54 GMT -5
Right, I suppose this explains the other post in the General thread... I won't take action in regards to this, since, despite Balok's posts not being friendly, W's decision to leave was his own. Just to make it clear, actions against whom? 'thew40' called another forum member "ass" (and this was not the first time he tried to start a flame war with name calling) and Balok´s the one not being friendly? I don´t think I´m gonna miss 'thew40' much to be frankly... This being said, in the future it would be better to word the opinions in a less aggressive way. Again, I think the problem was a particular poster (who´s now gone), not the general tone on the AA! boards. We are already the forum with the lowest number of active members I've ever seen around (do we make 15 regulars nowadays?), if a few more leave, we can just as well close down Yes, but would it be better if 80 (or 800) trolls would join the forum? I don´t want to sound rude, you´re doing a very good job as moderator, but this post trying to warn the rest of us to be polite just because some troublemaker left the forum was really weird...
|
|
|
Post by Shiryu on Oct 20, 2007 14:42:21 GMT -5
You have a point Von Bek, my last post could have been worded better I meant that under different circumstances action should have been considered against both, one for dragging and the other one for letting himself be dragged. There is nothing to earn from such heated fights, if someone says something you don't like, let it be, we are not here to score points against Marvel (or for it), and unlike real life discussions we have the great option to ignore it all and post in another topic. What I meant here is that clearly something is keeping people away from this forum, given that we have barely 15/20 regulars out of 185+ registered users. Whether this is the cause or not I just don't know, but there is a fair bit of aggressiveness towards people who like the current direction of Marvel, Bendis, Quesada etc, and the fact that now Doom is pretty much the only one here who belongs to this category, whereas there are hundreds of them in other forums, does suggest that something is not right. Hence my invitation to be more friendly in these posts and not get too carried away. By being friendly I don't mean that one can't discuss or criticize anymore, but quoting another post demolishing it bit by bit is bound to get a reaction and flame things up. I would like here to be a place where both those who like and dislike marvel can post confortably, without feeling as if there is a Civil War (^^) going on and they have to fight to defend their opinions. (and yes, I too struggle to understand why people like current Marvel so much... However I also struggle to understand why people smoke, drink, use drugs etc, so in the end it's just a matter of accepting it. Il mondo è bello perchè è vario )
|
|
|
Post by spiderwasp on Oct 20, 2007 17:09:25 GMT -5
You have a point Von Bek, my last post could have been worded better By being friendly I don't mean that one can't discuss or criticize anymore, but quoting another post demolishing it bit by bit is bound to get a reaction and flame things up. I would like here to be a place where both those who like and dislike marvel can post confortably, without feeling as if there is a Civil War (^^) going on and they have to fight to defend their opinions. You're absolutely right. I too was a little wierded out by your initial reprimand, but the point you make here is valid. I know I don't mind having something I say debated or for someone to try to prove me wrong. Where we sometimes have a problem is when we don't just disagree with WHAT is said but become critical of the person saying it, acting like that person is an idiot for thinking what they think. I, for example, think that Bendis is an awful writer and that Joe Q. is an idiot. I don't, however, think that someone is an idiot for liking or supporting either one of them. I don't understand them, but I respect that they don't understand my feelings either. The difference is that it's possible to criticize Marvel and it's creators or defend them without criticizing each other and BOTH sides have been frequently guilty of personal attacks (Myself included.) Maybe now, without W, who, let's be honest, is the most frequent attacker, we can do better.
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Bong on Oct 20, 2007 17:19:36 GMT -5
Agreed! But still, as Shiryu points out, there is a reason why we're such a small "usual gang of idiots", to appropiate 'Mad" magazine's tag line... Woe as I am to consider it, it might well be that most of us are out of touch with the current popular trends amongst fans... In that sense, I lament W's decision, for I have come to realize we need those dissenting voices, and not just to keep our membership, but to keep a sense of perspective as well... and now, Doom is more or less alone here on that corner... True, he's nigh unstoppable & relentless but, still...
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Oct 20, 2007 17:30:35 GMT -5
I, for example, think that Bendis is an awful writer and that Joe Q. is an idiot. I don't, however, think that someone is an idiot for liking or supporting either one of them. I don't understand them, but I respect that they don't understand my feelings either. The difference is that it's possible to criticize Marvel and it's creators or defend them without criticizing each other and BOTH sides have been frequently guilty of personal attacks (Myself included.) Maybe now, without W, who, let's be honest, is the most frequent attacker, we can do better. The w is the most frequent attacker? Funny, I recall someone else on this very forum who said that "no one with IQ higher than room temperature" could like Bendis. Even I have my limits and to be quite frank, I'm not far off them. If I didn't take a few hours off to calm down quite a lot these days, I'd probably have deleted my own account a week or two ago. And really, coming to the forums is becoming less of a pleasure and more of a chore. And a big part of that is because whle there are plenty of people who do support the idea spiderwasp puts forth of disagreeing but discussing the disagreement, there are plenty who do not. And I'll be totally frank here, Balok, you are a constant example of this. There are plenty of people on this forum who disagree with me- well, basically all of them now in fact. Yet every one of them except you and RSC have had pretty civil debates with me at some point. And you know why? Because they acknowledge that there are tastes that can be disagreed with, but you *constantly* and unceasingly attack any who support Marvel, claim them ot be IDIOTS, refuse to acknowledge people with different tastes and then demonstrate blinding hypocrisy in claiming THEY are the ones who cannot accept other views. Well I've agreed to disagree with plenty of people on this forum and there have been plenty of civil debates, so maybe- just maybe- every single time me or the w or whoever argues with you, we don't just have the IQ of a five year old, we just.... disagree... and maybe, just maybe, it's not that WE can't accept different views (since we've done so, repeatedly)... it's that you can't. To be honest, if this forum came with an ignore feature... I'd have used it months ago. And I don't think my enjoyment of this forum, or 90% of it's community, would be dimmed one iota.
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Bong on Oct 20, 2007 17:56:47 GMT -5
Perhaps (and I'm not mocking you one bit here, Doom...) you could learn to create your own mental "ignore button" and apply it anytime you feel there's not a fruitful discussion to be gained on any given situation since, by your own admission, most of us are civil enough...
|
|
|
Post by balok on Oct 20, 2007 18:46:56 GMT -5
...demonstrate blinding hypocrisy in claiming THEY are the ones who cannot accept other views... Let's not color the truth, Doom. I said that only about 'thew40' and only because HE specifically said it in a post. Am I kind to Marvel? No. Do I have difficulty understanding why people like much of it? Absolutely. Do I phrase that poorly at times? Probably. To all of these things I will admit. But please, no revisionist history around 'thew40.' You have on occasion demonstrated a remarkable ability to cherry-pick the facts to serve your position. Don't do it here. He is not a wronged party, he's just a guy who picked up his keyboard and went home. To be honest, if this forum came with an ignore feature... I'd have used it months ago. And I don't think my enjoyment of this forum, or 90% of it's community, would be dimmed one iota. I actively encourage you to ignore me, henceforth.
|
|