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Post by von Bek on Jul 30, 2007 10:43:40 GMT -5
Marvel's marketing department has access to more demographical information than either of us could hope to cite, so if it was really as simple as you would have me believe, how could they not see this? Or is it more likely there are other factors that contribute to the decision, like say, the poor sales of most kid oriented titles they have? Yeah, so how comes a book like Wolverine:Origins is losing around 5% readers per month? How can they not see this uf they´re so clever?
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Post by bendisbites on Jul 30, 2007 11:27:29 GMT -5
Hey Von Bek, I like your name so I'm giving you an exalt. Precedent has been set...
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Post by Alchemist-X on Jul 30, 2007 13:57:12 GMT -5
You didn't mention your poster child for what MU should be, Marvel Adventures, geared towards kids, sells oh so little. What is there to justify making more things of that nature? It sounds all well and good to say if they make comics for everyone, then everyone can buy them, but that doesn't translate into everyone will buy them. For example if NA suddenly went all 'kiddy' your Newphew might start buying it, but I would definately stop. And These Great storylines in teen books that younger readers can't get hooked on, couldn't all exist in the kiddy world could they? Or if they did they certainly wouldn't be the same, and that would defeat the point. And on the issue of you being an idiot All you want is a Marvel that tailors specifically to your needs (really everyone does), this is fine, but don't go tell me that by not listening to you Marvel is somehow loosing out on some vast untapped Market and that they should adopt a policy to mimic success the way American Idol did. American Idol? Marvel's marketing department has access to more demographical information than either of us could hope to cite, so if it was really as simple as you would have me believe, how could they not see this? Or is it more likely there are other factors that contribute to the decision, like say, the poor sales of most kid oriented titles they have? Taps the microphone, one two three times. "Is this thing on?" Audience murmurs in assension. "Oh okay, because I keep saying that marvel Adventures isn't right either because it narrowcasts and targets only very young readers without doing any of the hallmarks of marvel comics like extended storylines and isn't a part of the regular universe, but Alchemist isn't hearing me. But it's his own shortsightedness that makes that the case. Okay, thanks folks. You're a great audience, enjoy the shrimp cocktail while the band warms up." oh and like Columbo, I have one more thing-if Marvel has access to all this info why do they put out so many books that don't sell? Either demographic info means very little or they ignore it when they put much of their titles together anyway. And Marvel would love, LOVE, to have the success of American Idol. And in comparison I prefer it to 99% of what marvel's putting out. Yes Marvel Adventures is narrowcasting, not unlike YOUR PLAN. You tell me you want all ages, I say they make that, you say its not good enough? I don't care if they extend Marvel adventures past one issue stories(Isn't that what so many people on the board whine and cry they wish there were more of anyway?) or not (As I understand it they sometimes do) the primary point is that marvel's G rated material doesn't have as many fans as their T rated material. You seem to want to ignore this and have this fun idea that comic books will really sell exactly like they used to way back when if Marvel just goes back to that format. I've read your points and certainly I'll agree that the potential for a wider audience exists with all ages books, but that doesn't mean that is how its going to sell, in fact every indactor in the market lately seems to show that all ages books won't sell(observation from my own comic store trips and how there are always piles of Marvel Adventures never touched) to Von Bek On the Topic of Wolverine Origins, just wait, if Marvel instantly axed everything with diminishing returns, they'd cancel their entire universe after a few months. If the sales keep going bad, its gonna be canceled, or they'll throw a new creative team at it or find a way to rememdy the situation. (I Find the Origins concept uninteresting myself, so I would actually prefer canceled/fused into Wolverine's main book)
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Post by von Bek on Jul 30, 2007 14:22:47 GMT -5
Yes Marvel Adventures is narrowcasting, not unlike YOUR PLAN. I don´t know if Bendisbites has a plan, but you seem unable to understand that Marvel Adventures isn´t what one can call an ALL AGES comic, because it is a watered down version of the Avengers, and even if it wasn´t, I don´t think many old school fans would like an Avengers book with Wolverine and Storm in it. On the Topic of Wolverine Origins, just wait, if Marvel instantly axed everything with diminishing returns, they'd cancel their entire universe after a few months. No, they wouldn´t because not every book is losing readers month after month. If the sales keep going bad, its gonna be canceled, or they'll throw a new creative team at it or find a way to rememdy the situation. (I Find the Origins concept uninteresting myself, so I would actually prefer canceled/fused into Wolverine's main book) Wolverine´s main book is now in a dreadful story arc which only purpose seems to be explain who the villain behind the conspiracy in Origins is. But that´s beside the point. I used Origins as an example of how Marvel doesn´t always understand what the readership wants, even with their marketing departments and all.
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Post by von Bek on Jul 30, 2007 14:25:47 GMT -5
Hey Von Bek, I like your name so I'm giving you an exalt. Precedent has been set... Thanks man, I like yours too ;D, so an exalt coming your way!
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Post by bendisbites on Jul 30, 2007 14:30:03 GMT -5
Taps the microphone, one two three times. "Is this thing on?" Audience murmurs in assension. "Oh okay, because I keep saying that marvel Adventures isn't right either because it narrowcasts and targets only very young readers without doing any of the hallmarks of marvel comics like extended storylines and isn't a part of the regular universe, but Alchemist isn't hearing me. But it's his own shortsightedness that makes that the case. Okay, thanks folks. You're a great audience, enjoy the shrimp cocktail while the band warms up." oh and like Columbo, I have one more thing-if Marvel has access to all this info why do they put out so many books that don't sell? Either demographic info means very little or they ignore it when they put much of their titles together anyway. And Marvel would love, LOVE, to have the success of American Idol. And in comparison I prefer it to 99% of what marvel's putting out. Yes Marvel Adventures is narrowcasting, not unlike YOUR PLAN. You tell me you want all ages, I say they make that, you say its not good enough? I don't care if they extend Marvel adventures past one issue stories(Isn't that what so many people on the board whine and cry they wish there were more of anyway?) or not (As I understand it they sometimes do) the primary point is that marvel's G rated material doesn't have as many fans as their T rated material. You seem to want to ignore this and have this fun idea that comic books will really sell exactly like they used to way back when if Marvel just goes back to that format. I've read your points and certainly I'll agree that the potential for a wider audience exists with all ages books, but that doesn't mean that is how its going to sell, in fact every indactor in the market lately seems to show that all ages books won't sell(observation from my own comic store trips and how there are always piles of Marvel Adventures never touched) to Von Bek On the Topic of Wolverine Origins, just wait, if Marvel instantly axed everything with diminishing returns, they'd cancel their entire universe after a few months. If the sales keep going bad, its gonna be canceled, or they'll throw a new creative team at it or find a way to rememdy the situation. (I Find the Origins concept uninteresting myself, so I would actually prefer canceled/fused into Wolverine's main book) Taps microphone again. "Still working? Okay. Well could someone please tell alchemist that Marvel Adventures is specifically targeted towards younger readers and isn't really an all ages book per se. Would you compare the FF Galactus trilogy which is a true all ages comic, or The Kree Skrull War to this scene from Marvel Adventures? pics.livejournal.com/tavella/pic/0002tk38this book is not meant to pull readers in the same way as traditional marvel titles did years ago, I mean anybody who looks at it for four seconds would know that right? Marvel's problem is they treat kids like idiots who need sesame street superheroes. I didn't like Spidey's Super Stories when they came out in conjunction with the Electric Company and if I were a kid I probably wouldn't like Marvel Adventures because it's just too goofy. Although this one scene did make me laugh, but only because it made fun of Marvel's current stupid Hulk saga. pics.livejournal.com/tavella/pic/0002se3cHope you're happy. I now had to use visual aids. Now kiddies let's see how many more posts Alchemist takes to completely misunderstand this point. I'm betting seven. Then again he does think that Bendis rules, so two dozen isn't out of the question (that whole decompression thing...)
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Post by von Bek on Jul 30, 2007 15:00:57 GMT -5
Just to make it even clearer, Superfriends is not an all ages cartoon, but JLU is.
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Post by Alchemist-X on Jul 30, 2007 16:03:49 GMT -5
Hahah who's getting all bothered and angry you or me? That last post makes me think you, because I've been laughing to hard this whole time to be mad at ya, I just wanted to point out I think little of you.
On the seasame street super heroes, I thought that was your idea, no violence, no swearing, no drinking, no mature situations. It may be watered down, but thats what all ages is today. If they really wanted to make a total reprint of those old story arcs, could they really do it with the same rating as back then? Its easy to say Marvel should do what you want, and write stories for everyone, but they can't do it the way they used to, the socio-economic landscape isn't the same.
And where does this all come from? This whole argument stemmed for your non-sensical bendis hate spouting about how there is no acomplishment in having the Avengers sell number 1 because it isn't number one on terms you invented. It probably made you mad, an actual positive fact about bendis right? Its easy enough to denounce his work because things like that are objective, so you don't have to really work for it huh? I bet you spent hours thinking of how to take away that number one crown when you saw it in Doom's post.
Von Bek I've never really seen enough of Superfriends to say one way or the other, but JLU is not all ages, its PG (Viewer discretion is advised before it ever comes on TV here), and IMDB also lists is as USA:TV-PG.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jul 30, 2007 16:22:59 GMT -5
Just to make it even clearer, Superfriends is not an all ages cartoon, but JLU is. And the writer of JLU now writes Fantastic Four and will soon write Justice League itself.So where's your problem with FF right now? What in FF is so wrong with giving it to kids? Oh, and though I've no doubt you'll misconstrue this as best I can, I didn't give Alchemist-X an exalt because I "like his name", considering I'm not even a fan of much of Bendis's work. I gave him an exalt because he's expressing a totally unpopular oipinion on a site which almost entirely disagrees with him and he refuses to back down one inch, even changing his name to reflect that. That takes guts. As opposed to, say, arguing and having a name with full knowledge that the majority of people are behind you and you can bully posters if you want.
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Post by von Bek on Jul 30, 2007 16:34:23 GMT -5
Hahah who's getting all bothered and angry you or me? That last post makes me think you, because I've been laughing to hard this whole time to be mad at ya, I just wanted to point out I think little of you. Man, this I don´t get. If the purpose of your post was to tell Bendisbites that you´re not upset because he´s making fun of you, why do you insist in getting personal and stating things like "I just wanted to point out I think little of you"? You´re again just making yourself a target for mockery. Its easy to say Marvel should do what you want, and write stories for everyone, but they can't do it the way they used to, the socio-economic landscape isn't the same. It has very little to do with socio-economic landscape, those are editorial decisions. If the socio-economic landscape is different from back then, than they should produce comics that are cheaper than what they were 30 years ago, and not getting the product price higher. And where does this all come from? This whole argument stemmed for your non-sensical bendis hate spouting about how there is no acomplishment in having the Avengers sell number 1 because it isn't number one on terms you invented. No one invented anything, if Marvel had to retool the book at its most basic levels to make it number one and it´s still selling around 100K the whole industry is in a black hole. Dazzler #1 sold 430K in the early 80s. The Avengers #2 sold more than 200K in the late 90s. And you even changed your screen name (again making yourself a target for mockery) to demonstrate how much you love BENDIS! so don´t start this non-sensical bendis hate argument... Von Bek I've never really seen enough of Superfriends to say one way or the other, but JLU is not all ages, its PG (Viewer discretion is advised before it ever comes on TV here), and IMDB also lists is as USA:TV-PG. PG Parental Guidance Suggested - Some material may not be suitable for children. Signifies that the film rated may contain some material parents might not like to expose to their young children - material that will clearly need to be examined or inquired about before children are allowed to attend the film. Explicit sex scenes and scenes of drug use are absent; nudity, if present, is seen only briefly, horror and violence do not exceed moderate levels.It says that parents may want to examine the material before they allow the (younger) children to see it, not that it isn´t suitable for kids. To me that´s pretty much all ages. Well maybe not for 4 years old, but neither was the average Marvel comic in the 70s or 80s.
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Post by bendisbites on Jul 30, 2007 16:49:07 GMT -5
www.marqueecinemas.com/Portals/21/MPAA_rate.gifPG is hardly the kiss of death; it just means some content MAY be inappropriate for children. some parents may have not discussed pregnancy for example with their kids. dude, harry potter the movie is pg or pg 13, are you gonna tell me that's not all ages? and alchemist, you're the one who has resorted to name calling. I just keep dancing rings around you and trying to be funny and clever. how does my posting Ego talking like Barry White indicate any anger on my part? Your conjecture is pure silliness from a competitor who can't keep with me. I don't care that you think little of me, you're an internet dude who gets so mad he has to resort to being saucy with someone. I think little of your actions, you can't take my PG level sparring with you and your inability to absorb new information so I guess we'll never share a malted at Pop's Chocklit Shoppe. *sob* I give example of books like secret wars, like kree skrull, like old FF, which have some strong storytelling energy and ties to the MU, and you keep jumping to stories for five year olds like Marvel Adventures. How do you go there? Is there a synapse misfiring in your think tank pally? And Doom, as long as he has you for a friend he'll never be alone. There are maybe a dozen active posters and many of them stay out of threads like this anyway, so this brave stand is hardly, you know, notable. It's not like he's Custer at the Alamo. And even if he was, well Custer was wrong, so sometimes when you're outnumbered, it's just because you're on the wrong side. And the New Gods still suck, just in case you're keeping score.
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Post by von Bek on Jul 30, 2007 16:54:08 GMT -5
And the writer of JLU now writes Fantastic Four and will soon write Justice League itself.So where's your problem with FF right now? What in FF is so wrong with giving it to kids? Who has a problem with FF right now? I haven´t read the issues, so I can´t say if it´s all ages or not, but just because the same writer writes different stories for different medias doesn´t mean they´re all for children or for adults. Roy Thomas wrote for the Conan cartoon, that again was a watered down version of the character aimed for children, very different from the Conan he wrote for Marvel comics, full of violence and sexuality. Oh, and though I've no doubt you'll misconstrue this as best I can, I didn't give Alchemist-X an exalt because I "like his name", considering I'm not even a fan of much of Bendis's work. Misconstruct this the best as you can? Or I can? What? Nevermind. And if you´re not a fan of BENDIS! work why are you defending it like it is some kind of crusade for you? I gave him an exalt because he's expressing a totally unpopular oipinion on a site which almost entirely disagrees with him and he refuses to back down one inch, even changing his name to reflect that. That takes guts. As opposed to, say, arguing and having a name with full knowledge that the majority of people are behind you and you can bully posters if you want. No one was bullying any posters, the former Alchemist-X, now BendisRulez or whatever started the whole thing calling him "your idiot". Bendisbites probably doesn´t need me to defend him, actually it is quite funny to read his answers to your posts. I wouldn´t call that bullying, I have had a good laugh. And i really like his screen name, that´s why I gave him an exalt
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Post by Alchemist-X on Jul 30, 2007 16:54:39 GMT -5
Hahah who's getting all bothered and angry you or me? That last post makes me think you, because I've been laughing to hard this whole time to be mad at ya, I just wanted to point out I think little of you. Man, this I don´t get. If the purpose of your post was to tell Bendisbites that you´re not upset because he´s making fun of you, why do you insist in getting personal and stating things like "I just wanted to point out I think little of you"? You´re again just making yourself a target for mockery. It has very little to do with socio-economic landscape, those are editorial decisions. If the socio-economic landscape is different from back then, than they should produce comics that are cheaper than what they were 30 years ago, and not getting the product price higher. No one invented anything, if Marvel had to retool the book at its most basic levels to make it number one and it´s still selling around 100K the whole industry is in a black hole. Dazzler #1 sold 430K in the early 80s. The Avengers #2 sold more than 200K in the late 90s. And you even changed your screen name (again making yourself a target for mockery) to demonstrate how much you love BENDIS! so don´t start this non-sensical bendis hate argument... Von Bek I've never really seen enough of Superfriends to say one way or the other, but JLU is not all ages, its PG (Viewer discretion is advised before it ever comes on TV here), and IMDB also lists is as USA:TV-PG. PG Parental Guidance Suggested - Some material may not be suitable for children. Signifies that the film rated may contain some material parents might not like to expose to their young children - material that will clearly need to be examined or inquired about before children are allowed to attend the film. Explicit sex scenes and scenes of drug use are absent; nudity, if present, is seen only briefly, horror and violence do not exceed moderate levels.It says that parents may want to examine the material before they allow the (younger) children to see it, not that it isn´t suitable for kids. To me that´s pretty much all ages. Well maybe not for 4 years old, but neither was the average Marvel comic in the 70s or 80s. Changing your defination of all ages is a pretty good way adjust your argument. PG does not equal all ages, and Marvel back in the day was closer to PG than all ages, but the sociological landscape back then didn't see any sort of difference and just went with 'all ages' What was all ages back then would almost certainly be PG today. As for the name change, haven't you ever heard of the expresion "Two can play"?
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Post by spiderwasp on Jul 30, 2007 19:30:07 GMT -5
Okay, here's my opinion on the whole "All ages" thing. There is a huge area that comes between kicking women in their privates or showing gratuitous nudity and the Marvel Adventures line. I only picked up the first issue of the Avengers version but it was just written childishly so I didn't go any further. I have, however, picked up the Power Pack series just because I am a fan of the team, although I have become increasingly annoyed with it's seperation from other Marvel books. The kids keep meeting heroes they have worked with many times and even recently got excited by getting to see New York (Where they lived during their entire original series.) They've even recently met Franklin Richards who was actually a member of Power Pack. Is all this necessary because the original series was too mature for kids? No. It's written this way because Marvel has decided, as Bendisbites has said, to divide and conquer. This also serves another purpose. They want to create a new generation of readers that aren't hung up on continuity like the older fans are. (They've done the same thing with the Ultimates.) I may be naive but I have to agree with him that there is still a market for books that appeal to everyone. I also find it ironic that we consider kicking women in their privates to be "Mature" writing. There is a difference between explicit and mature. Truly mature writing would focus on character development and plot rather than cheap thrills that make the middle schoolers go "Cool Dude!"
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Post by bendisbites on Jul 30, 2007 21:11:11 GMT -5
Okay, here's my opinion on the whole "All ages" thing. There is a huge area that comes between kicking women in their privates or showing gratuitous nudity and the Marvel Adventures line. I only picked up the first issue of the Avengers version but it was just written childishly so I didn't go any further. I have, however, picked up the Power Pack series just because I am a fan of the team, although I have become increasingly annoyed with it's seperation from other Marvel books. The kids keep meeting heroes they have worked with many times and even recently got excited by getting to see New York (Where they lived during their entire original series.) They've even recently met Franklin Richards who was actually a member of Power Pack. Is all this necessary because the original series was too mature for kids? No. It's written this way because Marvel has decided, as Bendisbites has said, to divide and conquer. This also serves another purpose. They want to create a new generation of readers that aren't hung up on continuity like the older fans are. (They've done the same thing with the Ultimates.) I may be naive but I have to agree with him that there is still a market for books that appeal to everyone. I also find it ironic that we consider kicking women in their privates to be "Mature" writing. There is a difference between explicit and mature. Truly mature writing would focus on character development and plot rather than cheap thrills that make the middle schoolers go "Cool Dude!" Hey I like Spiders. And I like the wasp. You're getting an exalt too for being so daring as to combine the two. It takes true fortitude to mix venomous and stinging creatures under one alias.
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Post by balok on Jul 30, 2007 21:19:17 GMT -5
I gave him an exalt because he's expressing a totally unpopular oipinion on a site which almost entirely disagrees with him and he refuses to back down one inch, even changing his name to reflect that. That takes guts. Not exclusively. Plain old fashioned stubbornness also works.
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Post by balok on Jul 30, 2007 21:23:40 GMT -5
It's not like he's Custer at the Alamo. And even if he was, well Custer was wrong, so sometimes when you're outnumbered, it's just because you're on the wrong side. Exactly right. Well, except for the part about Custer at the Alamo - Custer was a Little Bighorn; folks like Bowie and Crockett were at the Alamo. But the rest of the point is spot on.
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Post by bendisbites on Jul 30, 2007 21:36:00 GMT -5
It's not like he's Custer at the Alamo. And even if he was, well Custer was wrong, so sometimes when you're outnumbered, it's just because you're on the wrong side. Exactly right. Well, except for the part about Custer at the Alamo - Custer was a Little Bighorn; folks like Bowie and Crockett were at the Alamo. But the rest of the point is spot on. Balok, for your history lesson you deserve an exalt. Thanks for correcting me. See, is just being wrong and fessing up to it so hard?? It's really not. I have the feeling Doom, if he'd made this mistake would rather hop on his time platform and put Custer at the Alamo just so he'd be right. And you can't go around messing with the time continuum just to win an internet squabble. It's just not kosher. Uh oh, I said kosher. can an "oy" be far behind? I'm turning into a badly written Bendis character...
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Post by Alchemist-X on Jul 30, 2007 22:13:00 GMT -5
www.marqueecinemas.com/Portals/21/MPAA_rate.gifPG is hardly the kiss of death; it just means some content MAY be inappropriate for children. some parents may have not discussed pregnancy for example with their kids. dude, harry potter the movie is pg or pg 13, are you gonna tell me that's not all ages? and alchemist, you're the one who has resorted to name calling. I just keep dancing rings around you and trying to be funny and clever. how does my posting Ego talking like Barry White indicate any anger on my part? Your conjecture is pure silliness from a competitor who can't keep with me. I don't care that you think little of me, you're an internet dude who gets so mad he has to resort to being saucy with someone. I think little of your actions, you can't take my PG level sparring with you and your inability to absorb new information so I guess we'll never share a malted at Pop's Chocklit Shoppe. *sob* I give example of books like secret wars, like kree skrull, like old FF, which have some strong storytelling energy and ties to the MU, and you keep jumping to stories for five year olds like Marvel Adventures. How do you go there? Is there a synapse misfiring in your think tank pally? And Doom, as long as he has you for a friend he'll never be alone. There are maybe a dozen active posters and many of them stay out of threads like this anyway, so this brave stand is hardly, you know, notable. It's not like he's Custer at the Alamo. And even if he was, well Custer was wrong, so sometimes when you're outnumbered, it's just because you're on the wrong side. And the New Gods still suck, just in case you're keeping score. Your the one who doesn't understand that all ages then doesn't translate into all ages now, and that those comics you love, wouldn't qualify as all ages anymore. And It may not seem like a difference, but the fact stands that it is, PG and All ages are not the same thing. Your little picture even has two different images for them doesn't it? And other than I calling you an idiot, I have wasted precious little space to trying to make you mad, I got that done with one mis-spelled sentence fragment. whereas most of your posts are about how your 'winning some battle' and how funny and clever you are compared to me.
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Post by bendisbites on Jul 31, 2007 0:08:09 GMT -5
www.marqueecinemas.com/Portals/21/MPAA_rate.gifPG is hardly the kiss of death; it just means some content MAY be inappropriate for children. some parents may have not discussed pregnancy for example with their kids. dude, harry potter the movie is pg or pg 13, are you gonna tell me that's not all ages? and alchemist, you're the one who has resorted to name calling. I just keep dancing rings around you and trying to be funny and clever. how does my posting Ego talking like Barry White indicate any anger on my part? Your conjecture is pure silliness from a competitor who can't keep with me. I don't care that you think little of me, you're an internet dude who gets so mad he has to resort to being saucy with someone. I think little of your actions, you can't take my PG level sparring with you and your inability to absorb new information so I guess we'll never share a malted at Pop's Chocklit Shoppe. *sob* I give example of books like secret wars, like kree skrull, like old FF, which have some strong storytelling energy and ties to the MU, and you keep jumping to stories for five year olds like Marvel Adventures. How do you go there? Is there a synapse misfiring in your think tank pally? And Doom, as long as he has you for a friend he'll never be alone. There are maybe a dozen active posters and many of them stay out of threads like this anyway, so this brave stand is hardly, you know, notable. It's not like he's Custer at the Alamo. And even if he was, well Custer was wrong, so sometimes when you're outnumbered, it's just because you're on the wrong side. And the New Gods still suck, just in case you're keeping score. Your the one who doesn't understand that all ages then doesn't translate into all ages now, and that those comics you love, wouldn't qualify as all ages anymore. And It may not seem like a difference, but the fact stands that it is, PG and All ages are not the same thing. Your little picture even has two different images for them doesn't it? And other than I calling you an idiot, I have wasted precious little space to trying to make you mad, I got that done with one mis-spelled sentence fragment. whereas most of your posts are about how your 'winning some battle' and how funny and clever you are compared to me. The comics I described would fall under the aegis of being available to every comic buyer who was of age to make a purchase. You obviously don' t think that Stan and jack's run on the FF is all ages for both then and now, and all I can say I leave that up to history to decide, because we're two nameless faceless dudes on the internet (and at least one of us isn't even wearing pants!!) so y'know it's pretty much just mindless diversion... And you're the one resorting to name calling and baiting. You're the one calling me an idiot and the one who's saying you think so little of me. I'm not Dr. Phil, but I think that qualifies as having (and please read in a Texas twang) "a bee in your bonnet." I'm the one using funny visuals and creating somewhat interesting scenarios to make my point rather than getting steamed, so yes I think I am the funny one, simply because I'm the one at least attempting to be funny. Y'see what gets you and Doom so annoyed is I just refuse to take y'all seriously. You guys get all wound up in these silly fifty page fights over whether spiderman 127 had webs under his armpits kinda junk. And I just can't get serious about that stuff. I treat it like a joke. So your next response will get more of my so-called comedy stylings and I still won't be wearing pants. Just a heads up.
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Post by Alchemist-X on Jul 31, 2007 0:58:17 GMT -5
Well we could look at how the official guidelines have changed over the years but apparently the exact guidlines on these codes (the Motion pictures ones PG, G, R, etc) are an industry secret.
Similariily, Marvel apparently makes their own ratings, so what they require for a All ages, PG, Teen or above is also only internal policies. (But considering what I've seen in T for teen ratings of comics, its gotta be a pretty close approximation of the movie rating scale)
So ya, no proof one way or the other, I guess I can agree on that.
Edit: I changed my name back because even If I do like Bendis, even I'm not die hard enough to let it be my handle forever. I was just having some fun before if y'all didn't get it. (If my handle would be dedicated to anyone, it would probably be Brian Vaughan)
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jul 31, 2007 4:59:48 GMT -5
Who has a problem with FF right now? I haven´t read the issues, so I can´t say if it´s all ages or not, but just because the same writer writes different stories for different medias doesn´t mean they´re all for children or for adults. Roy Thomas wrote for the Conan cartoon, that again was a watered down version of the character aimed for children, very different from the Conan he wrote for Marvel comics, full of violence and sexuality. FF? It's simple. I read it every month and I want to know what exactly in Fantastic Four means it's inappropriate for showing to kids. And you know, what I can't find anything. As far as I can tell, I could show recent issues of FF to any kid and they would love it. In fact, Fantastic Four is and has ALWAYS been the most "all ages" friendly of Marvel's main books, right down to the recent movies. So why do you think it is that for the last God knows how many years, Fantastic Four has NEVER been one of Marvel's best selling comics? And yet New Avengers, which appeals to a "narrower" age dynamic, has? In fact, let's take a run at quality for a moment. The best Thor run ever (in general opinion) is the Simonson run. That's not a run I'd really want to show my kids. Brubaker's Cap- the current Cap- would be held by most Cap-fans (I know, RSC. I know.) to be among the ebst Cap runs ever, if not the top, yet it's not really for kids either. In fact.... the ONLY "best run" on any book I can recall I'd have no big problem showing to kids.... is the Waid Fantastic Four run. Which was NEVER a best seller. My point is this: When stories are published for all ages in today's climate... they tend to fail. And often if they are, and it's not appropriate to the source material.... it fails in quality. You seem to be labouring under the impression that if it appealed to wider ranges it would do better, so why is it that eveyr book that DOES appeal to wider ranges DOESN'T do as well as those like New Avengers? Firstly, it's kind of funny how you're trying (and failing, I might add) to make a clever joke again, while simultaneously Misconstruing the word Misconstrue. "mis·con·strue (mskn-str) tr.v. mis·con·strued, mis·con·stru·ing, mis·con·strues To mistake the meaning of; misinterpret." "Misconstrue", friend, not "Misconstruct" And I defend Bendis stories I like, because I like them. USM, for example, when I read it, or his current NA and MA work. I'm not a fan of Disassembled or large chunks of NA, as you'd know if you read my posts instead of quoting them and misconstruing them. I No one was bullying any posters, the former Alchemist-X, now BendisRulez or whatever started the whole thing calling him "your idiot". Did I say they were bullying? Certainly it's been tried before. Besides, Alchemist's calling it like he says it, I can't fault him from my experience either. Glad you agree, I think Bendisbites' answers here are laughable too! Did I sound like I had a problem with that? Except as someone with a more than decent knowledge of history, I'm more inclined to say I would have just said Custer at Little Bighorn, so you know... And speaking of being outnumbered so you're on the wrong side... I might reverse that logic of you. When I look at the sales figures for Civil War or New Avengers, I somehow think that in the wider world outside this little old site, we aren't the ones who are outnumbered. I'm not greatly annoyed, I'm pretty happy right now actually. And believe me, we have better things in life to do than be concerned if you take us seriously. Though incidentally for the record, it's Spider -Man. If you're gonna try to debate comics, you could really at least try to get the name of comics #1 Figurehead right.
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Post by bendisbites on Jul 31, 2007 9:28:52 GMT -5
Who has a problem with FF right now? I haven´t read the issues, so I can´t say if it´s all ages or not, but just because the same writer writes different stories for different medias doesn´t mean they´re all for children or for adults. Roy Thomas wrote for the Conan cartoon, that again was a watered down version of the character aimed for children, very different from the Conan he wrote for Marvel comics, full of violence and sexuality. FF? It's simple. I read it every month and I want to know what exactly in Fantastic Four means it's inappropriate for showing to kids. And you know, what I can't find anything. As far as I can tell, I could show recent issues of FF to any kid and they would love it. In fact, Fantastic Four is and has ALWAYS been the most "all ages" friendly of Marvel's main books, right down to the recent movies. So why do you think it is that for the last God knows how many years, Fantastic Four has NEVER been one of Marvel's best selling comics? And yet New Avengers, which appeals to a "narrower" age dynamic, has? In fact, let's take a run at quality for a moment. The best Thor run ever (in general opinion) is the Simonson run. That's not a run I'd really want to show my kids. Brubaker's Cap- the current Cap- would be held by most Cap-fans (I know, RSC. I know.) to be among the ebst Cap runs ever, if not the top, yet it's not really for kids either. In fact.... the ONLY "best run" on any book I can recall I'd have no big problem showing to kids.... is the Waid Fantastic Four run. Which was NEVER a best seller. My point is this: When stories are published for all ages in today's climate... they tend to fail. And often if they are, and it's not appropriate to the source material.... it fails in quality. You seem to be labouring under the impression that if it appealed to wider ranges it would do better, so why is it that eveyr book that DOES appeal to wider ranges DOESN'T do as well as those like New Avengers? Firstly, it's kind of funny how you're trying (and failing, I might add) to make a clever joke again, while simultaneously Misconstruing the word Misconstrue. "mis·con·strue (mskn-str) tr.v. mis·con·strued, mis·con·stru·ing, mis·con·strues To mistake the meaning of; misinterpret." "Misconstrue", friend, not "Misconstruct" And I defend Bendis stories I like, because I like them. USM, for example, when I read it, or his current NA and MA work. I'm not a fan of Disassembled or large chunks of NA, as you'd know if you read my posts instead of quoting them and misconstruing them. Did I say they were bullying? Certainly it's been tried before. Besides, Alchemist's calling it like he says it, I can't fault him from my experience either. Glad you agree, I think Bendisbites' answers here are laughable too! Did I sound like I had a problem with that? Except as someone with a more than decent knowledge of history, I'm more inclined to say I would have just said Custer at Little Bighorn, so you know... And speaking of being outnumbered so you're on the wrong side... I might reverse that logic of you. When I look at the sales figures for Civil War or New Avengers, I somehow think that in the wider world outside this little old site, we aren't the ones who are outnumbered. I'm not greatly annoyed, I'm pretty happy right now actually. And believe me, we have better things in life to do than be concerned if you take us seriously. Though incidentally for the record, it's Spider -Man. If you're gonna try to debate comics, you could really at least try to get the name of comics #1 Figurehead right. we already addressed the Custer thing, but hey feel free to rehash. It's not like brevity is your strong suit. As to your FF to New Avengers analogy, wow wow wow. We've already discussed how Marvel narrowcasts the books and that they have five different versions of books and how even with NA selling better than other books, it's still not that impressive. The fact is New Avengers has Spider Man (which I'll hypenate and capitalize anyway I want since he and I are on a first name basis) and Wolverine and every new hot artist in the world because Bendis and Quesada are closer than a fat guy's thighs. Give Bendis Joe Staton as his artist and take away Marvel's hottest properties for six months and see how that book does. Give Bendis a book like Daredevil and see how well it sells. Oh wait a a minute they did that already and it sold about as many copies as Millie the Model. Whoop whoop. However, I will say that Marvel probably did their best advertising job with New Avengers and if they did that for some of their other books, they might actually sell a few copies. And how is Marvel gonna get that broader audience if they only stay in comic shops anyway? That's like a nerd on an internet board claiming he can't meet any chicks besides his mom (not that I'd call anyone here a *nerd* ahem ). Of course you're not meeting anyone because you're not taking a risk. Marvel and DC are in a safe zone, they know they can move enough books to this market to stay alive so they don't risk pushing back into mainstream audiences. How do they do it? Not entirely sure. I'm not a marketing genius and if I were I'd be making a ton of money doing so, but I know the current model is barely sustainable. Think about the idea that in a world of three billion plus people, many of whom have this bright shiny computer that can be used for something besides porn, like ordering comics the best selling of Spidey's titles is maybe only reaching a hundred and fifty thousand of them. And not even that many because thousands of copies are still sitting in comic shops. I'll put it this way-- my local comic shop usually has hundreds of books left after free comic day. That tells me they don't even know to give this stuff away properly. And Simonson's Thor rocks and I'm trying to think of which issues are any worse than the average Harry Potter book. Unlike Simonson's New Gods which sucked although not as bad as Kirby's...
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Post by von Bek on Jul 31, 2007 9:47:37 GMT -5
FF? It's simple. I read it every month and I want to know what exactly in Fantastic Four means it's inappropriate for showing to kids. And you know, what I can't find anything. As far as I can tell, I could show recent issues of FF to any kid and they would love it. Well, I haven´t read it, so I can´t say if it is or isn´t for a wider audience. In fact, Fantastic Four is and has ALWAYS been the most "all ages" friendly of Marvel's main books, right down to the recent movies. So why do you think it is that for the last God knows how many years, Fantastic Four has NEVER been one of Marvel's best selling comics? During Heroes Reborn and Return it was a top seller, after that the book was a mess and Marvel didn´t know what to do with it. Now with Black Panther and Storm on the team it seems they still don´t know... In fact, let's take a run at quality for a moment. The best Thor run ever (in general opinion) is the Simonson run. That's not a run I'd really want to show my kids. Why not? What´s there that´s not suitable for kids? (By kids I don´t mean 3 years old, btw) My point is this: When stories are published for all ages in today's climate... they tend to fail. And often if they are, and it's not appropriate to the source material.... it fails in quality. You seem to be labouring under the impression that if it appealed to wider ranges it would do better, so why is it that eveyr book that DOES appeal to wider ranges DOESN'T do as well as those like New Avengers? How many kids have you seen in a comic shop lately? Firstly, it's kind of funny how you're trying (and failing, I might add) to make a clever joke again, while simultaneously Misconstruing the word Misconstrue. Here is something for ya. And I was really trying to understand what you were trying to say. It made no sense... Did I say they were bullying? Err... yes you did. Certainly it's been tried before. Sorry man, but again you´re not making sense. I know you´ll say I´m failing again to do a clever joke, but i´m really trying to understand your point, what has been tried before? Besides, Alchemist's calling it like he says it, I can't fault him from my experience either. Your experience? I can almost picture you in the front of the computer, posting on the AA! boards and singin´ "all by myself..."But now you got a friend Doom, is BendisRulez, to share your experience, exalt one another and call everybody here your idiot! Glad you agree, I think Bendisbites' answers here are laughable too! Great, I thought you were missing the joke... And speaking of being outnumbered so you're on the wrong side... I might reverse that logic of you. When I look at the sales figures for Civil War or New Avengers, I somehow think that in the wider world outside this little old site, we aren't the ones who are outnumbered. Let me reverse the reverse, the wider world doesn´t even know what NA is. I'm not greatly annoyed, I'm pretty happy right now actually. And believe me, we have better things in life to do than be concerned if you take us seriously. Though incidentally for the record, it's Spider -Man. If you're gonna try to debate comics, you could really at least try to get the name of comics #1 Figurehead right. You know that with this last comment you just proved Bendisbites point, don´t ya? ;D
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Post by Shiryu on Jul 31, 2007 10:03:11 GMT -5
Easy, guys. I haven't had time to read all 4 pages of the topic yet, but the idiot remark is a bit too aggressive for a friendly forum.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jul 31, 2007 12:52:44 GMT -5
As to your FF to New Avengers analogy, wow wow wow. We've already discussed how Marvel narrowcasts the books and that they have five different versions of books and how even with NA selling better than other books, it's still not that impressive. The fact is New Avengers has Spider Man (which I'll hypenate and capitalize anyway I want since he and I are on a first name basis) and Wolverine and every new hot artist in the world because Bendis and Quesada are closer than a fat guy's thighs. Again, please forgive me- how is FF narrowcasting? Read an FF comic and tell me that's not appealing to a MUCH wider audience than many comics these days, it could be read by someone 6 or 60 and understood. Yet it's still not a big seller. They gave Bendis Yu, isn't that bad enough? You leave out the part where it gets critically acclaimed beyond all reason and praised to no end and is called by several websites the single best run of Daredevil EVER, better even than Miller. They're trying their best to expand, it's not like it's easy. To be fair, you can buy TPBs in any bookstore around here. AND they're moving digital. I would take offence at the implication, friend, but I'm secure enough in my relationship. Don't risk pushing into mainstream? Let's see, marvel have made the headlines at least twice in roughly the last year- one on a slow news day, one a heavy news day, and Civil War got massive press coverage for a comics event. Certainly they're taking a better stab at shifting into mainstream audiences than DC as their numbers reflect! ? It's pretty common knowledge that we're in a world of six billion plus people, so I'm going to assume you mean people outside the third world, right? Right. Now let's try and shrink the audience again. Firstly, we narrow it to the population of America, because the numbers only reflect American sales figures. Now we cancel out those who are too poor or do not have access to comic shops. Now we cancel out those below a certain age- 5, 6? Now we cancel out those above a certain age- 50? And the result? The sales are STILL nowhere near, what they could be, you're right! (Though Civil War numbers show progress). But it's still doing much better in perspective than you're trying to imply. I'll put it this way, I VERY rarely see an issue of New Avengers or Amazing Spider-Man or JLA on the shelves at my LCS, and it's not due to low supply. (Though, I'll be fair- it's one of the only rwo major LCSs in the country and the only one in the capital, so that's not an entirely fair comparison.) No, I agree, I can't think of any either. So why don't the numbers agree with us, man? Why don't the numbers agree? Heh, I know you're just saying that to wind me up but it's quite funny because- no lie, I literally JUST got my order of Simonson's "Orion: Gates of Apokolips" from amazon, I've been meaning to read Simonson's Fourth World stuff for ages. Seems DC don't agree that the New Gods such though since they're having them be a colossal part of their next mega company wide crossover headlined by one of the industry's top writers and the industry's top pencillers- though I DO owe an apology for bitching about the New Gods dying, it seems the story is already being retconned as of next May! Okay. Do. "After that", actually, came the Waid run which is often considered the very best since Lee and Kirby or at least the best since Byrne, many would say better. Wasn't a top seller though. On the contrary, with BP and Storm on it, it's better than it's been since Waid left, and the sales figures agree with me DESPITE it having a lower profile creator. Because I doubt anyone below the age of 10 could understand half the stuff there is in Simonson's Thor. That's not me underestimating it, I spend a lot of time with kids (Please, save the comments ) and you try explaining to them about the mythic cycle of life, death and rebirth etc. Now they can read it and enjoy it without fully undertsanding it... but then the EXACT SAME could be said of almost all of NA! A ridiculous amount but it's hard to judge because of the figures and games there. Wrong. I IMPLIED it My fault for some rather atrocious sentence wording. I'm just commenting that it wouldn't be the first itme people have tried to bully others on the internet jsut by saying "There's more of us so you're wrong, shut up and get in line." pquote]Your experience? I can almost picture you in the front of the computer, posting on the AA! boards and singin´ "all by myself..." But now you got a friend Doom, is BendisRulez, to share your experience, exalt one another and call everybody here your idiot![/quote] I respect everyone on this forum far too much for that. I exalted him once as a respect sign, would it stun you to learn there is not a SuperSecretClub of Bendis Supporters? I don't agree with calling anyone an idiot, if they agree with me or not. It's not the way I do business. Let me Reverse the reverse of the reverse: More of the wider world have heard of the X-Men or the Fantastic Four or the Hulk or Spider-Man than the Avengers. Does that make the Avengers worse automatically? Well I figure, the guy's on the internet arguing, however light heartedly, about comic books, so the hypocrisy was already there whether anyone called attention to it or not.
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Post by bendisbites on Jul 31, 2007 13:19:46 GMT -5
I guess where I point out that by printing several different FF books, thus diluting the appeal of a singular book and only distributing to comic shops I am being too subtle by saying they're narrowcasting? I mean if I only make my pasta sauce available in five stores, even if its the best sauce in the world, it's still narrowcasting, right? I am not actively seeking the largest audience, true? I also meant the three billion people with computer access since so much of the world lives below the poverty level and have concerns like eating, and not dying under cruel regimes that I don't really hold them responsible for keeping up on their comic purchases. I give 'em slack like that... And come to New York, you can buy enough New Avengers several issues back at cover price to make a bed out of them. And even if several websites say Bendis' run was the greatest ever , I'm impressed, why? Because I'm sure I can find in the untold billions of webpages out there, dozens that will say it sucked worse than Kirby's New Gods. And most websites and several magazines like Wizard which Frank Miller once threw in the trash, saying it was a bible written by Satan and a monthly vulgarity often have a bias one way or another, so why should it matter any more than you saying it, for example? As this thread illustrates, ANYONE can put an opinion on the Internet. Doesn't make it of any value...
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Post by von Bek on Jul 31, 2007 13:37:57 GMT -5
Seems DC don't agree that the New Gods such though since they're having them be a colossal part of their next mega company wide crossover headlined by one of the industry's top writers and the industry's top pencillers- though I DO owe an apology for bitching about the New Gods dying, it seems the story is already being retconned as of next May! Do you have a source for that information? If the mega crossover is Final Crisis, where did you read it will retcon the Death of the New Gods? (But even if it would - which I doubt - the New Gods would still suck) "After that", actually, came the Waid run which is often considered the very best since Lee and Kirby or at least the best since Byrne, many would say better. Wasn't a top seller though. Again you present opinion as fact. In your opinion Waids run was so great. There are people who doesn´t like his writing or Wieringo´s art. On the contrary, with BP and Storm on it, it's better than it's been since Waid left, and the sales figures agree with me DESPITE it having a lower profile creator. You missed my point. I dunno if it´s a good read or not because I haven´t read it, but the fact that BP and Storm are now part of the FF shows that Marvel is losing sight of what makes the FF work. It´s something as terrible as ... Wolverine and Spiderman on the Avengers maybe. Because I doubt anyone below the age of 10 could understand half the stuff there is in Simonson's Thor. That's not me underestimating it, I spend a lot of time with kids (Please, save the comments ) and you try explaining to them about the mythic cycle of life, death and rebirth etc. Now they can read it and enjoy it without fully undertsanding it... but then the EXACT SAME could be said of almost all of NA! No it couldn´t. NA is more violent than Simonson´s Thor ever was.
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Post by Alchemist-X on Jul 31, 2007 14:01:48 GMT -5
Note, at my local comic shop, NA, has sold out every issue since #1 and is what the owner says is the second best seller next to his popular mangas.
So really whats your point?
Oh PPS, at 23, I'm usually the oldest person in the shop by almost a decade
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Post by bendisbites on Jul 31, 2007 14:15:07 GMT -5
Note, at my local comic shop, NA, has sold out every issue since #1 and is what the owner says is the second best seller next to his popular mangas. So really whats your point? Oh PPS, at 23, I'm usually the oldest person in the shop by almost a decade Without knowing one thing about your comic shop, it means very little concerning the age comparison. Some stores carry cards, books, toys, videogames, manga, movies etc. and other collectibles that bring in people who never even look at comics, so you could still be the youngest comic reader in the joint. What it also means is in Calgary where I imagine there are fewer comic shops than New York, the supply and demand is different. I can still find issues at cover price in high numbers here. What you're really saying is your experience is different than mine. Can't really disagree with it. But I don't know that it proves much else than that. Although you guys do have socialized medicine and that rocks so I'm giving you an exalt. I love Canada.
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