Mighty Avengers #2

[Doctor Doom]

We agreed before?

[balok]

docdoom said:

Tell me, would that show be more or less than a show of hands of who was surprised you DIDN'T like Mighty Avengers 1 enough to keep it on?

Who can say? I make no secret of the fact that I dislike Marvel's current direction; to be equally honest you need to admit that you're pretty much an unreserved Marvel supporter.

docdoom said:

I love how you're so absolutely confident in judging after one great issue and one good one.

Actually, I made my judgement based on one adequate issue (#1), your comments that suggest a subpar issue (#2), and a lot of Bendis history (much of his work on New Avengers).

docdoom said:

Or if it's a different storytelling style... right, right, such an idea is OUT OF THE QUESTION!

All I said here was that you shouldn't be surprised, given the man's track record of grindingly slow plot advancement. Some folks like that. Me, not so much.

docdoom said:

Absolutely, but it doesn't mean I can't dislike it I'm not going to claim all of Marvel is EVIL for this though, I'm not like you

Um, where did I make this claim? Certainly not in the post to which you reply...

[perceval]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it Austen who mucked things up between Hank and Jan just prior to Disassembled?

Anyway, I'd argue the point that "nothing happened". Yes, it was mostly a long fight scene (Like that's unheard of, especially in an Ultron story?), but we also had more background, and the answer to why Ultron has his/her new look. Seems to have taken on more than just Jan's physical attributes, too, judging from the quips. "I hope you're not involved with any of your mindless creations. That would be so completely disgusting. I couldn't even imagine." "Meh. I like Thor better." "Who do I look like?" Ultron's taken on Jan's personality.

Maybe this relates to how Jocasta was created, way back when?

[Nutcase65]

perceval said:

Maybe this relates to how Jocasta was created, way back when?

Avengers 162


As for the hank/jan thing. I am in agreement with Doom/Balok

It is never OK to hit your wife, no matter that she threw away all of your comics when you were temporarily separated. But he hit her only once, while not in a right state of mind. Not OK but not like a serial wife beater.

Then, he stood up and took full responsibility for his actions after his trial. Did not shirk his shortcomings OOR try to blame them on his mental state.

Then he made amends.

and she fargave him.

They have run this one out of gas.

[Alchemist-X]

I picked this one up, and here's my take
(SPOILERS AHEAD)


The Good
I like the art I've seen thus far, good stuff. And yes, the girls are all quite hot, but they are superheroines.

I also Enjoyed Black Widow's fight with the SHEILD rookies, and the use of thought bubbles in the flashbacks from Ms Marvel and Ironman.

Maybe the best was Ares, as surprised as I am to say that, If he is looking for redemption, he didn't find it instantly, because he's as arrogant and short tempered as ever. His personality clashing with Carol's was very enjoyable. And of course the best line in the whole series so far was "Meh. I like Thor better" man that had me knowing when I fliped the pages Ares was gonna flip right out.

The Bad
Didn't like the cover, nice to show of the new Ultron, but it didn't really inspire me.

Other than expanding on the roster joining we didn't move too much further other than our heroes realization that the New Ultron isn't to be taken lightly (Kicking around Wonderman, a God, The Sentry and Ms. Marvel while standing in one spot is impressive). I don't mind the spliced flashbacks and real story, because I read the whole arc again after its done and that really makes for a good read, but I gotta say my impatience is getting the best of me.

The Ugly
Wonderman's costume. I mean I think all his old ones look pretty terrible too, but this one is a new level of weak. A red jacket could work if it wasn't so ugly, and notice when he grabs Ares he has some kinda gold wrist band, like, what the hell is that ugly thing. I don't want him to walk around all ionic and purple, but a more traditional black and red body armour looking spandexy getup might look better.

[redstatecap]

I browsed it a couple of days ago, and it's not my cup of tea.
It's particularly strange that Bendis has basically recast Ultron as Jocasta -- a duplicate of Jan in body and behavior. Why? I mean, he has to have heard of Jocasta. Heck, Ultron created her to be his Jan in the first place, so this development is just redundant and silly.
The rest of the issue was uninteresting. Ms. Marvel was all over the place. A little throwaway action here and there. The faux nudity should not be in a mainstream Marvel comic. If I had kids, they wouldn't be getting this comic again.

RSC

[von Bek]

redstatecap said:

It's particularly strange that Bendis has basically recast Ultron as Jocasta -- a duplicate of Jan in body and behavior. Why? I mean, he has to have heard of Jocasta.

C´mon we´re talking about Bendis here, do you really think he ever read Jocasta´s origin story?

[von Bek]

docdoom said:

Or if it's a different storytelling style... right, right, such an idea is OUT OF THE QUESTION!

If someone put water on my beer and tell me is a different style of beer drinking, called decompressed beer, I would say that that was out of the question too.

[balok]

vonbek said:

If someone put water on my beer and tell me is a different style of beer drinking, called decompressed beer, I would say that that was out of the question too.

We already have that in the United States - it's called Coors. And amazingly, people like it!

How about a new marketing campaign, Marvel, the Coors of Comics?!? It fits well with the nudity theme, and beer makers have lots of money to spend luring in new customers...

[von Bek]

balok said:

vonbek said:

If someone put water on my beer and tell me is a different style of beer drinking, called decompressed beer, I would say that that was out of the question too.

We already have that in the United States - it's called Coors. And amazingly, people like it!

No wonder Bendis is so popular in the USA then!

balok said:

[How about a new marketing campaign, Marvel, the Coors of Comics?!? It fits well with the nudity theme, and beer makers have lots of money to spend luring in new customers...

Here in Brazil most campaings advertising beer involve half naked women (like in many countries too), so the Girltron would alredy fit in!!

[Tone-Loc]

Is the nudity thing, if you can call it nudity, that big a deal? The shape and form, but no definition. I mean what did you expect by looking at the cover? Or was it the rump shot that some of you are referring to?

[perceval]

nutcase65 said:

perceval said:

Maybe this relates to how Jocasta was created, way back when?

Avengers 162


As for the hank/jan thing. I am in agreement with Doom/Balok

It is never OK to hit your wife, no matter that she threw away all of your comics when you were temporarily separated. But he hit her only once, while not in a right state of mind. Not OK but not like a serial wife beater.

Then, he stood up and took full responsibility for his actions after his trial. Did not shirk his shortcomings OOR try to blame them on his mental state.

Then he made amends.

and she fargave him.

They have run this one out of gas.

Doesn't answer my question. If the situation Austen created was resolved in a Hank and Jan reconcile way, please tell me so (I dropped the old series during Austen's run). If it wasn't...

While I'd personally prefer to pretend Austen's runs on Marvel books didn't exist, the next writer really can't do that. So, if the situation was left unresolved, it's still there. Given what Austen did, it's not something you can simply say "Oh, they made up off-panel, so let's just pretend that didn't happen."

[Nutcase65]

the 162 was just showing the when of Jocastas creation.

The rest was just going with what some others were talking about. Sorry for any confusion

[Nutcase65]

toneloc said:

Is the nudity thing, if you can call it nudity, that big a deal? The shape and form, but no definition. I mean what did you expect by looking at the cover? Or was it the rump shot that some of you are referring to?

Yeah Tone, I think the rump shot pretty much put it over the top for me. But let me be clear, I'm not trying to judge anyone else who don't mind. It's just a personal taste thing for me, and that rump shot was too over the top for my tastes.

[perceval]

vonbek said:

redstatecap said:

It's particularly strange that Bendis has basically recast Ultron as Jocasta -- a duplicate of Jan in body and behavior. Why? I mean, he has to have heard of Jocasta.

C´mon we´re talking about Bendis here, do you really think he ever read Jocasta´s origin story?

I'm guessing he did, considering the way Ultron is, here.

If this were another writer, say, Kurt Busiek, wouldn't we just assume this was building on the old Jocasta stories? Bendis is obviously aware of Ultron's fixation with Jan, which was mainly played up in the Jocasta strories. It's been touched on, occasionally, since, but for the most part ignored by writers, post-Shooter. You'd have to be familiar with the Jocasta stories to even be aware that Ultron has a thing for Jan, let alone her being a major motivation of Ultron's.

Anyway, Ultron's changes are more than physical. Judging from the way she words things, she's gotten more from Jan than her looks. So, I'm guessing this relates to how Jocasta was created.

[perceval]

nutcase65 said:

the 162 was just showing the when of Jocastas creation.

The rest was just going with what some others were talking about. Sorry for any confusion

Still, though...

Was the situation Austen created with Hank and Jan resolved during that period I'd dropped the books? I'm not arguing against your views, I really want to know. Because if it was, it's something I don't know about (Austen drove me off a few titles). If it wasn't, then Bendis really does have to take what was handed to him where Hank and Jan are concerned. He can't just pretend it didn't happen. Well, he could, but that would be ignoring continuity, doing exactly what some complain that he does.

[von Bek]

perceval said:

vonbek said:

C´mon we´re talking about Bendis here, do you really think he ever read Jocasta´s origin story?

I'm guessing he did, considering the way Ultron is, here.

If this were another writer, say, Kurt Busiek, wouldn't we just assume this was building on the old Jocasta stories?

Well, based on the kind of stories and the characterizations each of the writers wrote in the past, I´m more inclined to think Busiek does do more research than Bendis.

perceval said:

Bendis is obviously aware of Ultron's fixation with Jan, which was mainly played up in the Jocasta strories. It's been touched on, occasionally, since, but for the most part ignored by writers, post-Shooter. You'd have to be familiar with the Jocasta stories to even be aware that Ultron has a thing for Jan, let alone her being a major motivation of Ultron's.

Since when is Jan a major motivation for Ultron? He made Jocasta because he wanted a 'wife' (sort of) and since he was using a brainwashed Hank Pym to kidnapp a woman Jan was the obvious choice. But I don´t remember it being so much about Jan.
Ultron didn´t even use her 'brain-patterns' like he did with the Vision, but choose another method, IIRC the life essence (whatever that is supposed to be) of Jan body was being syphoned into Jocasta´s metal body. Maybe Shooter didn´t want Jocasta to have Jan´s personality, but if Ultron had such a crush on Jan he would have used her brain-patterns to create someone with a similar mind.

perceval said:

Anyway, Ultron's changes are more than physical. Judging from the way she words things, she's gotten more from Jan than her looks. So, I'm guessing this relates to how Jocasta was created.

Again, Jocasta was nothing like Jan, she was reserved and even a little shy, her personality didn´t reflect that of the late 70´s Jan at all. And she never felt any attraction to Hank Pym either.

[von Bek]

perceval said:

nutcase65 said:

the 162 was just showing the when of Jocastas creation.

The rest was just going with what some others were talking about. Sorry for any confusion

Still, though...

Was the situation Austen created with Hank and Jan resolved during that period I'd dropped the books? I'm not arguing against your views, I really want to know. Because if it was, it's something I don't know about (Austen drove me off a few titles). If it wasn't, then Bendis really does have to take what was handed to him where Hank and Jan are concerned. He can't just pretend it didn't happen. Well, he could, but that would be ignoring continuity, doing exactly what some complain that he does.

No the Hank/Jan problem wasn´t resolved AFAIK. But the problem here is that if Austen got it wrong (and he did) Bendis got it wrong too, and is only worsening the situation. Two wrongs don´t make a right.

And why is Bendis so shocked with slapping a woman? I´m not defending hitting women or anything, but wasn´t in BMB New New Avengers not long ago that Cage kicked poor Elektra between the legs probably shattering her pelvis? So, that´s ok for Bendis because they weren´t married? At the end of the Breakout storyarc we have again Cage holding a woman (the new Black Widow) and possibly hurting her while Jessica Drew threaten to lobotomize her. And that´s ok? Better than salpping? The mind boggles...

[Doctor Doom]

I pity anyone who feels this issue was too much for the kids because let me tell you, you do NOT want to venture near the Distinguished Competition right now. Even I am put off by the amount of gore. Not too ramble but Marvel are sixty times better on the "for kids" freont than a DC who have, in the past two years shown, graphically:
-A man get his eyes poked out
-Someone get both arms ripped out
-Someone shot point blank in the head with a pistol
-Basically ANY of Black Adam's rampage in "52" which was brutal.
-A man get devoured alive
-Several people have holes punched through them
-A super-heroine bitten, then impaled on a sword and having her corpse consumed
-The rape of Sue Dibny, though that was not shown
-Her subsequent graphic death, which was

And so on and so on. And that's JUST IN THEIR LAST THREE EVENTS.

I guess what I'm gettingh at is that if you like comics and want them to be safe for kids, I'd say you have a much safer bet with Marvel and I still don't see any huge problem with this issue. Hell, it's the nature of kids that they're not likely to go "Oooh, look at that!", especially with such a low level of faux nudity as is present in this issue.

[perceval]

Part of the problem was Shooter leaving the book before he'd really developed Jocasta. Whatever his plans were, we'll never know. The next writer did give Jocasta Jan's sense of humor (An exchange with Gyrich that confuses him comes to mind), but for the most part she was kept in the background. As for what she may or may not have felt for Hank, there wasn't exactly any opportunity to explore that. They weren't on the active roster at the same time.

During Shooter's second run, we saw Jan's more serious side, and some of the personality traits that Jocasta had shown. Also, "essence" implies a little more than the brain patterns used with the Vison, and Ultron, himself. In Avengers #162, during the tranferrence, Jocasta is finishing Jan's sentences (including the "my love" to Hank).

[von Bek]

Point is, was the gore and violence essencial to the story? For example the Superboy rampage in infinity Crisis was, to show that it was so horrible that drove Superboy mad (he wasn´t very stabil to begin with, but...).
Turning the Hulk into a serila killer was not only unnecessary but also damaged the character.

And who got his eyes poked out (this out of curiosity, it has nothing to do with the debate)?

[von Bek]

perceval said:

Part of the problem was Shooter leaving the book before he'd really developed Jocasta. Whatever his plans were, we'll never know. The next writer did give Jocasta Jan's sense of humor (An exchange with Gyrich that confuses him comes to mind), but for the most part she was kept in the background. As for what she may or may not have felt for Hank, there wasn't exactly any opportunity to explore that. They weren't on the active roster at the same time.

She did have a thing for the Vision, and there were opportunities to at least show if she felt something for Hank, even with them both not being active Avengers at the same time.
And Jocasta might have had a sense of humour, but not necessarily Jan´s.

perceval said:

During Shooter's second run, we saw Jan's more serious side, and some of the personality traits that Jocasta had shown.

Disagree again. Shooter (and later Stern) developed Jan but didn´t make her insecure or shy like Jocasta, quite the contrary, she became a capable leader and emotionally independent but without becomming too serious.

perceval said:

Also, "essence" implies a little more than the brain patterns used with the Vison, and Ultron, himself. In Avengers #162, during the tranferrence, Jocasta is finishing Jan's sentences (including the "my love" to Hank).

I wanted to say that Shooter didn´t use the old method of 'transplantation' of brain patterns in Jocasta´s creation that have been a classic since Avengers 57. So maybe that was because he didn´t want her to have Jan´s personality. As to exactly what the "life essence" is was not fully explained in the story. Even Jan´s hability to control insect were Jocasta´s for a moment but apparently it faded away after thestory.

[perceval]

vonbek said:

perceval said:

Part of the problem was Shooter leaving the book before he'd really developed Jocasta. Whatever his plans were, we'll never know. The next writer did give Jocasta Jan's sense of humor (An exchange with Gyrich that confuses him comes to mind), but for the most part she was kept in the background. As for what she may or may not have felt for Hank, there wasn't exactly any opportunity to explore that. They weren't on the active roster at the same time.

She did have a thing for the Vision, and there were opportunities to at least show if she felt something for Hank, even with them both not being active Avengers at the same time.
And Jocasta might have had a sense of humour, but not necessarily Jan´s.

She wasn't shown as attracted to the Vision, just feeling that they had a bond because of how they came into being.

Disagree again. Shooter (and later Stern) developed Jan but didn´t make her insecure or shy like Jocasta, quite the contrary, she became a capable leader and emotionally independent but without becomming too serious.

"Became" being the key word. Before she and Hank fell apart, she'd spent years, in her words, subverting herself completely to prop him up. Jocasta came along during those years where Jan was being codependant.

I wanted to say that Shooter didn´t use the old method of 'transplantation' of brain patterns in Jocasta´s creation that have been a classic since Avengers 57. So maybe that was because he didn´t want her to have Jan´s personality. As to exactly what the "life essence" is was not fully explained in the story. Even Jan´s hability to control insect were Jocasta´s for a moment but apparently it faded away after thestory.

It's not as though the Vision and Simon have the same personality. It wasn't until the mid-1980s that things they had in common were developed. The implication was that Ultron was taking something quite a bit more from Jan, a piece of her soul.

It would seem Ultron still has that, somehow.

Carol: And, uh, who are you?

Ultron: Who do I look like?

Of course, this new, improved, Ultron/Jocasta is informed by the Terminator movies in his/her human appearance.

[Nutcase65]

docdoom said:

I guess what I'm gettingh at is that if you like comics and want them to be safe for kids, I'd say you have a much safer bet with Marvel and I still don't see any huge problem with this issue. Hell, it's the nature of kids that they're not likely to go "Oooh, look at that!", especially with such a low level of faux nudity as is present in this issue.

Which is a point that is sad as well. I know it's pointless to wish our kids weren't constantly subjected to all this crap but I wish it anyway, and try to filter out things I think are inappropriate. That's why I stick to the age ratings on the books.

I'm glad the age ratings are there.
I wish they didn't have to be.

[Black Knight]

Actually, marvels comics are no longer kid friendly, hense the Marvel Adventure, kid friendly books.
Marvel comics has gone the realism route, there hero's are not so heroic as they used to be, they are horribley flawed.

Also as for gore, well seeing the burned off face of wolverine, with his eyes melted, is pretty gross. Or how about golaith geting a hole blown through him. Not to mention the comic Marvel Zombies.
I really think that some people here have a serious marvel biased when it comes to defedning them.

[Doctor Doom]

Really? Which of these is more gruesome Black Knight:



The Marvel example you cited and almost unquestionably the msot graphic thing in all of Civil War.


OOOOOR....



From Infinite Crisis #7. What about this:



From the same issue? How about...



From Countdown to Infinite Crisis? And those are just three minor examples out of many from that series I could give. Is my bias clouding my eyes here, cos I'm pretty sure the latter two are much worse. BUT WAIT.... how could we POSSIBLY get worse than that?



I don't think it can be disputed that DC are much more graphically brutal when it comes to these things. I mean that stuff is psychotic, that's too much even for me and that's not just the fanboy talking because I enjoyed Infinite Crisis okay. (Except the catastrophic issue 7) The worst thing is that NONE OF THESE ARE EVEN NECESSARY! A brutal death for Goliath is intended to give the story extra significence, to show how out of contro this Thor cyborg is. The last DC one there, the death of Psycho Pirate, is never referred to again. And when DC want to show how out of control someone is, they apparantly graphically decimate the Teen Titans. (TWICE in TWO YEARS!)

And on the subject of "Heroes are too flawed now", we're not quite at the poitn where Marvel heroes are mind wiping each other and breaking former hero's necks on national television.

[Nutcase65]

Marvel has it's share of it too. But your empasizes point is my point too. NONE OF THESE THINGS IS NECCESSARY

There is this need to shcok people now, in all forms of media.

I don't understand it, but it is our reality.

[Alchemist-X]

That stuffs nothing, DCs WW3 came out this week, and that expands on Black Adam's rampage in some serious brutal glory. And yeah I sure as hell wouldn't wanna be a Teen Titan, thats like a gruesome death sentence in the DC universe.

The devoured by a Human-Aligator was probably the most shocking of all just because I didn't see it comming at all.


As for Marvels stuff its violent and there, but nobody's been so brutally maimed and killed like DC characters have been lately. Compare Civil War to Infinite Crisis and its practically PG13 vs Rated R(That would be DC).

The Thor thing was kinda unnesecary, but it did serve some purpose in the story, to show how dangerous and out of control the Pro-reg side was getting trying to compete with the Secret Avengers.

[Nutcase65]

The thing is I don't think comics would suffer if they scaled back on shock a little, and concentrated a little harder on story.

If they tried to get those ratings back down to at least a pg13 on a regular basis, they could still put out highly readable stories.

[balok]

docdoom said:

I mean that stuff is psychotic, that's too much even for me and that's not just the fanboy talking because I enjoyed Infinite Crisis okay.

Not like, say, stabbing someone in the spine and then mocking the fact that he'll never walk again, right? 'Cause that happened in a book you have heaped with praise. The difference? That's a Marvel book, where it's okay, I guess...

This is the Rust Age. This seems to be what people want in their comic books, 'cause the emerging (young?) audience is buying these books. If you don't like this sort of thing, do what Nutcase did - make a statement with your wallet. No matter WHICH company does it.