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Post by uberwolf on Apr 7, 2007 7:18:32 GMT -5
Doomsie certainly lives up to his namesake. His certainty that only his opinion matters is absolutely stunning at times.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Apr 7, 2007 7:46:56 GMT -5
Can't have it both ways, Balok. The Thunderbolts and 42 are both Initative concepts Exactly, and he’s poking a hole in your goalpost-moving argument that Rykers, not 42, is the standard the nanite technology is measured against. Whether Balok thinks 42 is a good thing is irrelevant to an evaluation of the nanites as being a worse thing.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 7, 2007 9:38:06 GMT -5
Firstly, I obviously disagree with your assessment uberwolf!
Secondly, I honestly don't believe I'm moving the goalposts, Phantom. So is Balok saying that they SHOULD have 42, and no Thunderbolts? In that case, it's an entirely different argument. But he wants them both gone, so it's one larger argument and trying to identify single points and debate on them out of context is rather ridiculous.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Apr 7, 2007 12:00:45 GMT -5
Secondly, I honestly don't believe I'm moving the goalposts, Phantom. So is Balok saying that they SHOULD have 42, and no Thunderbolts? In that case, it's an entirely different argument. But he wants them both gone, so it's one larger argument and trying to identify single points and debate on them out of context is rather ridiculous. I am not an oracle of Balok.* But it is perfectly appropriate to argue against a conclusion by arguing against one or some but not all of the supporting premises. To declare that one must always accept either all or none of the premises is to succumb to the fallacy of false dilemma. Consider this argument: 1. 2×2=4 2. 3×3=8 3. 4+8=12 Conclusion: (2×2)+(3×3)=12 One can reject the conclusion by pointing out that the second premise is incorrect. One need not attack the first or third premise; indeed, it is not “ridiculous” to believe that 2×2=4 and 4+8=12 while simultaneously disbelieving that 3×3=8 and (2×2)+(3×3)=12. Now consider this argument: 1. 2×2=4 2. 3×3=8 3. 4+8=15 Conclusion: (2×2)+(3×3)=15 This time, suppose one believes that both the second and third premises are suspect. To discredit the argument, one need not rebut both those premises: one can rebut just #2 or #3, and in either case a successful rebuttal will be enough to show a faulty argument. Rebutting just one may not be quite so thorough as rebutting both, but generally speaking one is not obligated to present one’s entire universe of beliefs to point out a problem in someone else’s statements. *Nor am I an oversized puppet of Balok.
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Post by Tana Nile on Apr 7, 2007 12:32:16 GMT -5
Doomsie certainly lives up to his namesake. His certainty that only his opinion matters is absolutely stunning at times. ;D
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Post by uberwolf on Apr 7, 2007 13:56:36 GMT -5
Firstly, I obviously disagree with your assessment uberwolf! Well of course you would. I'm just making an observation based on this and past posts. As for Civil War, didn't read it, don't plan to and I'm happy. Which I would not be if I did read it I'm sure. Just had to get a post on here.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 7, 2007 17:14:23 GMT -5
You know I'd say I know when I've been beaten but for several things, including that I don't believe I HAVE been and that it just wouldn't be me if I knew when I'd been beaten.
...Nervetheless I am very tired now and you will forgive me if I post my full retaliation tomorrow, good sirs/madams.
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Post by balok on Apr 7, 2007 20:02:42 GMT -5
Can't have it both ways, Balok. The Thunderbolts and 42 are both Initative concepts, and you've protested about both. So saying "ah but 42 takes care of that!" is just empoty when you don't think there should be a 42 either! *Sigh* I guess I'm going to have to mark my sarcasm posts some more explicit way. That reference to 42 was intended to be mockery of it. I personally think a great Elseworlds story would be one where Cap wins and the entire Earth is destroyed and the last page is Cap looking around at the broken wasteland and sinking to his knees beside the body of Tony, but that's just me;) Right now, any story containing as a key plot element, "the body of Tony" would be alright with me! So, we agree!! Plus you're forgetting Reed is involved. Match Reed up with anyone except the illustrious Regent of Latveria and he's going to be smarter, normally by a rather substantial amount. Certainly Reed is on the short list of smartest people in 616. Whether he's actually the smartest remains unclear, at least to me. But you don't have to be the smartest person in the world to solve a problem. You only have to be smarter than the problem. I submit there are other individuals smart enough to disable the nanomachines, and malicious enough to post the method on the WWW, for example. Heck, if I was in the Marvel Universe and smart enough, I'd do it - as a way of objecting to their use. Before Reed can reprogram them so that method doesn't work, many villains will be free and will disappear. That would be harder to do if, !!!SARCASM!!! they were safely secured in, say, some kind of extradimensional prison or something... Or, to put it another way, any method of superhuman restraint lasts until a writer needs/wants a particular villain to escape. The citizens of 616 aren't noticeably safer for having either 42 or the nanites. I'm merely pointing out how they could be defeated, and offering the quite reasonable suggestion that lawbreakers be incarcerated, which is certainly no less safe and potentially a lot more safe than using nanites. The *entire* Thunderbolts project, therefore, flies in the face of a principal goal of the program: protecting the unpowered from the rampages of the powered.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 7, 2007 20:31:03 GMT -5
you mean 3 time 3 doesn't equal 8?
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Post by The Night Phantom on Apr 8, 2007 12:31:17 GMT -5
You know I'd say I know when I've been beaten but for several things, including that I don't believe I HAVE been and that it just wouldn't be me if I knew when I'd been beaten. There you go again, treating the forum as an arena for battle. I’m not playing. And again! Retaliation for what?!? Any weaknesses in your arguments were placed there by you. Retaliate against yourself. Or better yet, why not take responsibility for your actions and repent and reform?* *That my suggestion comes on Easter is merely a coincidence. Reading it as a religious endorsement is an error.
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Post by thew40 on Apr 10, 2007 8:50:57 GMT -5
Soooo, I could use some input here, guys.
I was going to do a review of issue individual series, but to be honest, it's just too time consuming. Plus, this was going to be in addition to doing the event itself as one big story. A lot of observations are bound to be repeated. So, I guess what it comes down to is should I just forego the series reviews and just do the event or should I do both?
~W~
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 17, 2007 20:10:08 GMT -5
thew, I know it's a lot of work and then the thread sort of wanders off, but I've been enjoying sseing you're analysis. I think if you're up for it you should keep on truckin
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Post by thew40 on Apr 17, 2007 22:55:27 GMT -5
I need just a little more time. I've got a lot of notes written and it's just a matter of organizing them. It'll probably be this weekend when I get the last portion up.
~W~
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 18, 2007 11:28:54 GMT -5
Can't wait for it, buddy!
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Post by thew40 on Jun 3, 2007 12:04:41 GMT -5
Well, guys, it's been a while . . . it might be a while longer. Like I said, I have a bunch of notes regarding "Civil War," but I just haven't had the chance to get them all organized.
It seems it's going to be even harder, as I start school on Tuesday and that's going to cut down on my time to work on anything.
That being said, when I get to "Civil War" with the Uncanny X-Periment (http://uncannyxperiment.blogspot.com/), I may just end up doing the "Civil War-A-Thon" all over again.
~W~
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Post by woodside on Dec 2, 2007 22:33:42 GMT -5
That being said, when I get to "Civil War" with the Uncanny X-Periment (http://uncannyxperiment.blogspot.com/), I may just end up doing the "Civil War-A-Thon" all over again. I spoke the truth . . . CIVIL WAR REVIEW - PART THREE: THE STORY Part One: "The Road to Civil War"New Avengers: The Illuminati, Fantastic Four 436-437, Amazing Spider-Man # 529-531 After the Kree/Skrull War, Iron Man called together Mr. Fantastic, Black Panther, Professor X, Namor, Black Bolt, and Doctor Strange in the hopes of forming an uber-team. Everyone turned it down. So, it was decided by everyone but Black Panther that this group would meet every now in secret to share information and to tackle “secret” issues. Recently, with Professor X missing, this group decided to launch the Hulk into space. This created a rift in the group as Namor greatly disagreed. He rushed off. Now, Iron Man has called them together again in regards to some legislation he was secretly handed. Turns out that the government is nearing it’s wit’s end as far as super-human recklessness is concerned and wants to propose an act that will force super-heroes to register with the government. Iron Man and Mr. Fantastic want to get behind it, Strange and Black Bolt disagree, and Namor laughs and leaves. When Reed gets home, he and the rest of the Fantastic Four are called to Okalahoma, where Doombots are attacking a research facility that’s been built around the fallen hammer of Thor. Doctor Doom himself arrives, as it was the hammer than freed him from Hell and he thinks he’s worthy of it. Well, duh, he’s not, but he did “activate” and a mysterious ‘DB’ is on his way to retrieve it. Meanwhile, Iron Man gives Spider-Man an Iron Spider-Man Armor and makes Peter his right-hand man. They head to Washington to argue the registration legislation. Conveniently, Titanium Man shows up. Spider-Man fights him, they continue to debate, and then they leave. It then turns out that Titanium Man was hired by Stark to show lawmakers that heroes are needed. Okay, so let’s get to it, shall we? First of all, the Fantastic Four story is great. It’s short, it’s fun, it’s exciting and energetic. Between JMS script and Mike McKone’s art, it’s rather good. Illuminati is pretty good too, but this is where I start to have a problem. Now, let me state that I like the idea of the Illuminati. It’s one of those “I thought of this idea ten years ago!” things. It just makes sense to me, y’know? Overall, the script works and Alex Maleev’s art really fleshes it out nicely. Amazing Spider-Man is good too, but it gets a little long-winded. It’s funny, don’t get me wrong, and both Tyler Kirkham and Ron Garney do good work here, but the dialogue is very, shall we say, Claremontian? But I can look past that, I suppose. Here’s my beef though – why introduce the legislation now? It doesn’t make any sense. What’s the point? Because a bad thing is going to happen? Gah, the wheels are showing. Even a line saying that “it’s been in the works for years, sometimes getting shelved and sometimes getting dusted off when crazy things are happening” would have worked. The scene that kills me is when Iron Man talks about exactly what happens. I know, I know, futurist. But still . . . it stretches even my suspension of belief. Seriously, if this portion was toned down, it would have been better. You know, if you couple this with the first few pages of the Civil War Sketchbook, it actually really feels like you’re about to get swept into something huge gigantic. Which really works for this story.
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Post by woodside on Dec 9, 2007 12:15:16 GMT -5
Part Two: Opening Shot
Civil War # 1, Wolverine # 42 (until page 27), Civil War: Frontline # 1, Amazing Spider-Man # 532 (until page 21), New Avengers # 21, She-Hulk # 8, Black Panther # 18, Captain America # 22
The New Warriors head to Stamford, Connecticut to film the second season of their reality TV show. They track down Coldheart, Cobalt Man, Speedfreak, and Nitro to a suburban house across the street from an elementary school and battle with them during, well, recess. Nitro then explodes, killing the New Warriors and some 600 people at Stamford, including school children.
The heroes respond, but there is a backlash. Rallied by Miriam Sharpe – mother of one of those killed in the blast – thousands are demanding super-hero registration. What would registration mean? Revealing your secret identity to the government, getting training in use of your powers, and licensed. During an informal meeting at the Baxter Building, the rift between those who agree and disagree begins to grow. When SHIELD Commander Maria Hill tells Captain America he’ll have to hunt down those that don’t comply, Cap refuses and is attacked. Captain America then goes underground and Iron Man – who is in support of registration – tell the President he’ll hunt Cap down.
During this, we’ve got Wolverine, who feels as though everyone is getting too cluttered in the post-Stamford event and instead should be concentrating on finding Nitro, who managed to escape.
Sally Floyd and Ben Urich are asked to take a side by their respective publishers, which eventually leads Sally into an interview with Spider-Man and Ben arguing with Jameson. Spider-Man gives Sally a tip – to see Iron Man’s Washington Press Conference, where Tony reveals that he’s not only Iron Man, but also an alcoholic as a way to of “coming clean.” Oh, and it turns out Speedball survived and is secretly arrested, his powers having saved him and burned out from the explosion.
As this is all occurring Tony allies himself with the government and asks Peter to fully disclose himself to the government and the public as a rallying symbol. Peter is left uncertain of this.
SHIELD manages to track down Cap, who confronts an alive Dum-Dum Dugan before escaping and meeting up with the Falcon. The pair then goes to recruit Yellowjacket, who holds them until a unit of the newly-instated Capekiller soldiers arrive to take them down. The pair escape, of course, to bring more to their cause.
The New Warriors not involved in the Stamford incident go to She-Hulk for help in their legal battle with a website that is making their names known so that angry lynch mobs can attack their friends and families. After a brief court battle, Iron Man gives She-Hulk the name of who is behind it – former New Warrior Hindsight Lad. The New Warriors take him down. Meanwhile, John Jameson (Man-Wolf) is confronted by Cap, but turns him down and instead proposes to Pro-Reg She-Hulk.
In Wakanda, there is a cease-fire issued when Black Panther and Storm marry. Iron Man and Captain America have harsh words, but it doesn’t take too much away from the wedding. Storm’s very spirit is tested before she is deemed strong enough to marry T’Challa. Man-Ape turns out to have been invited, Doom sends wedding gifts, and despite the tension, everyone seems to have had a good time.
Finally, Sharon Carter gets a psychological evaluation after messing things up. SHIELD tried to use her feelings for Cap to bring him in, but she sent the Capekillers to another location while she tried to convince Steve to change his mind. She’s okay to return to duty, but it turns out that the evil Doctor Lukin is working with the Red Skull and is messing with her mind.
Whew! And this is just the tip of the iceberg!
Civil War itself brings the problem right up in front and is among Millar’s best single issues. Everything is really well done, from the opening scenes to Cap’s leaving of the Hellicarrier. The best moment, however, is the meeting at the Baxter Building. It really brings the large Marvel Universe together in such a strangely informal way. The Avengers, Young Avengers, Fantastic Four, X-Men, and a number of B and C-listers are all there, discussing what’s going on. And when the Watcher arrives, you can just feel the already tense situation take a grave turn. It’s a great scene that pulls the issue together.
Wolverine is a good start. I like to see someone actually making an effort to track down the real killer. I’ll cover more Wolverine ground later.
Frontline presents a nice start and it’s good to see a more ground-level, human-eye look at the events taking place. The scene with Sally and Spider-Man is fantastically awkward and Iron Man’s “coming out” would have been far more dull if not the “and I’m an alcoholic” part. Good beginning.
Amazing Spider-Man is pretty straight-forward. Not sure why Tony is pushing Peter to reveal his identity to the public, but I can see why Tony needs Peter to at least register. The Tony/Peter dynamic is a great aspect of this book and really comes through nicely.
New Avengers gives us a decent look at the inside of Cap’s head as he’s dealing with recent events. The art is a strange match, but I loved seeing Cap and Falcon working together, as well as Cap starting up the rebellion.
She-Hulk is a treat. It’s good to see an issue dedicated to dealing with the New Warriors not involved in Stamford. I wish there had been more Civil War tie-ins, including one dealing with the details of the Registration Act.
Black Panther is good. I like the blend of realism and Marvel fiction in terms of the guest list. Needed more X-Men. We saw Nightcrawler, Professor X, and the Astonishing team, but where was Rogue, Cannonball, Warren, Bobby, and the others? Even New Excalibur were shown! A better spotlight on the X-Men would have been great here, but Kitty and Professor X both get nice little moments (unlike Cyclops, who gets the dull line “I wonder what kind of impact this will have on her responsibilities as an X-Man?” BLARGH!). Cyclops has a personality. Hudlin finally starts to get the hang of Storm, which is about time. The spirit world/Panther God scene is nicely done and overall, the issue is pretty good. I placed it here instead of later mainly because I put it later, it would have hurt the Luke/Jess separation. Furthermore, it serves as the only other time that Cap and Iron Man are somewhat non-violent with each other.
Finally, we have Captain America. It was cool seeing this story from Sharon’s POV and seeing her struggle with everything going is a nice and needed touch. Cap’s determination really shines through. Brubaker has Cap nailed here. And the scheming by the Red Skull is an excellent scene.
~W~
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Post by woodside on Jan 6, 2008 10:30:25 GMT -5
Part Three: Registration Becomes Law
Civil War: Choosing Sides – “Non-Human Americans,” New Avengers # 22 (until page 13), Civil War # 2 (until page 14), New Avengers # 22 (rest of issue), Amazing Spider-Man # 532 (pages 23-25), Civil War # 2 (rest of issue), Civil War: Frontline # 2 – “The Program,” Civil War # 3 (page 1), Thunderbolts # 103 (until page 10, panel 3), Amazing Spider-Man # 533, Thunderbolts # 103 (rest of issue), Civil War: Frontline # 2 (rest of issue)
It’s about here where things get a little more complicated continuity-wise. I messed up the placement of Amazing Spider-Man # 532, pages 23-25; it should really take place before Civil War # 2, while New Avengers (until page 13) should be moved into Civil War # 2, probably between pages 11 and 12. Oh well.
Kicking things off, Howard the Duck and his girlfriend Bev (making their second appearance here at the Uncanny X-Periment) make their way to the Cleveland Registration Office. After some mix-up with the DMV (whoops! Ohio has a BMV!), they end up in the right office, where Howard learns that he’s been classified as non-existent . . . which makes him very happy.
With the registration deadline approaching, Iron Man and Ms. Marvel go and see Luke Cage, Jessica Jones, and their baby daughter. Luke and Jess refuse to sign up and Luke has Jess flee to Canada while he remains in Harlem.
Meanwhile, both Cap America’s so-called “Secret Avengers” and Iron Man’s Pro-Reg forces tackle various threats; the former being Reaper and Vulture, the latter being a giant-ass Doombot. At the Baxter Building, the battling of their former friends is wearing on Sue, but Reed is really excited about it and is building something called ’42.’ J. Jonah Jameson and Robbie muse over the Registration Act as it is about to go through; when it does, Tony Stark expresses to Happy Hogan his doubts.
Immediately following midnight, when the act is passed, Luke Cage is attacked by SHIELD and their Capekillers. As capture seems to be within reach, he is rescued by Captain America, Daredevil, and Falcon. They then high-jack a tank and make it out alive.
Twenty-four hours after the Act is signed, SHIELD and the Capekillers capture the Young Avengers, who are then rescued by Cap and Falcon and taken back to their secret HQ (one of Fury’s old underground bases). They are joined by Cloak, Dagger, Cable, Hercules, and a few others.
Peter arrives in Washington DC and is introduced as Spider-Man before peeling off his mask on live television, revealing himself. The point of this was to show that the Registration Act is the responsible thing to follow.
Norman Osborne watches as Peter/Spider-Man answers questions and grows furious. He is then offered a chance to change the game by the government.
The Thunderbolts catch the news during a battle with Quicksand, who they defeat and wonder about how Spider-Man’s revelation will effect their status quo.
With the press conference completed, Peter heads home. Once there, he learns that the Bugle is suing him for damages. Furthermore, Peter catches a news conference that states that he and many others will hunting down those that did not Register.
Back in DC, Yellowjacket, Mr. Fantastic, and Iron Man meet up with Baron Zemo and Songbird, who recruit them into capturing super-villains. This leads to a battle with various college kids that stole old Beetle armors. After the kids are defeated, Baron Zemo relishes in the fact that that villain hunt was going for two weeks before he was even asked to (part of another plan).
Ben Urich manages an interview with Peter while Sally goes after Firestar (who says simply she’s giving up the super-hero lifestyle to get a college education and job). The pair then witnesses the first major engagement of Civil War – Iron Man taking down the former Slinger Prodigy.
Finally, Speedball refuses Registration and ends up in jail.
Lots to cover here. Let’s break it down into the small stuff first.
Howard the Duck’s story was simple and funny and offers an enjoyable angle on the current situation.
Luke’s struggle against SHIELD and his determination to stay both speak greatly of his character. Jess shines through as well. The art is bad, but the writing is well-done.
Civil War itself provides brief, but brilliant spurts of insight. Reed and Sue’s rising tension (and Reed’s apparent denial/blindness of it) really speaks of the way the war is affecting their marriage. Tony’s “I hope we’re doing the right thing” line is one of my favorites. It really humanizes him. The rescue of the Young Avengers is delightfully dynamic.
Frontline continues to be smartly written and provides a ground-level look at the war as it unfolds. Speedball’s story is not as strong, but still remains interesting. Less so than Osborne’s, which was a good fit for the character; it also ensures that the bad guys aren’t just the good guys.
Thunderbolts . . . while I love the role they go onto play in Civil War, I still find their characters to be lacking accessibility and come off as clichéd.
There is a chink in the armor here, though, and that’s with the Registration Act. All of these books deal with it being passed, but there are still some questions that need to be asked. Just because one registers, do they have to be called up into active duty? Is it like the Marines? What kind of training? What if they’ve been at it for years? Are there certain levels and requirements they have to match? And what if they don’t want to be a super-hero? Who takes care of their personal information?
One issue of She-Hulk would have answered all this. Marvel dropped the ball here and had they gone over all the details in canon, then I don’t think that readers would have opposed the Registration Act so much.
Now, as for Spider-Man’s unmasking . . .
I like it, generally. It shakes things up, gets things around. It has a great impact on Spidey’s supporting cast – Aunt May, MJ, Flash, Osborne, Jameson, Urich, etc. It’s a bold step and one that makes Spider-Man’s involvement in Civil War a more emotional thing. It fits his character. There’s a strong case made for it.
There are some other things about Spider-Man that I’d like to go into, but we’ll cover that a few entries later.
~W~
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