Miriam Sharpe

[Nutcase65]

Okay, I gotta ask this.

Did anyone else think, during the course of this story, that Mariam Sharpe, the lady who spit in Tony's face, was something other than she appeared to be?

I kept thinking maybe she was a villian of some sort trying to escalate things to gain her own ends. I kept expecting theer to be a reveal of her as a bad guy in some way.

She was always a few too many places it seemed.

I keep thinking maybr it may still turn out that way. Anybody else get this vibe from her?

[Doctor Doom]

Many people who had great difficulty struggling with the whole "Maybe Tony actually has a point" issue speculated she was everything from Mephisto to Loki.

Marvel repeatedly said that she was not.

One would assume that would cut down the speculation.

One would be wrong

PS: Good God! You can always tell when nutcase came on, he bombards just about every forum on the site!

[Nutcase65]

Just having joines the board Doomsie I haven't accessed those older posts. I also have not read the Marvel releases about her.

Even knowing that, her character still gives me weird vibes.

One question for you Doom. When Tony wanted to talk to her later in the series, why didn't he knock her through a wall first? Isn't that protocol?
(It's been a week, I couldn't hold it in any longer ;D)

[balok]

Perhaps the reason so many people believed that is that they felt the characterization of these folks was off. I was certain until almost the end that someone was pulling strings. Often, when people act against type in comics, its an indication that an unseen Machiavelli lurks about, pulling strings.

[daned]

I felt she was just a mourning mother who was looking for a way to blame someone - right or wrong. I think it would have cheapened it immensely if she was revealed to be anything else.

[thew40]

daned said:

I felt she was just a mourning mother who was looking for a way to blame someone - right or wrong. I think it would have cheapened it immensely if she was revealed to be anything else.

Agreed.

That being said, I was ready to expect her to suddenly transform into Loki at the end.

~W~

[balok]

The Civil War certainly worked better *without* a supervillain pulling the strings. Having Miriam Sharpe turn out to be Loki would have been a cheap stunt to be sure.

But without that device we must assume that the (in some cases radical) departure from established characterization is simply the result of Marvel's decision to... radically depart from established characterization. Mostly likely the driver is the usual: stimulate sales. If what people have said in these forums is true, and Marvel doesn't consider its "old guard" readership all that important, one can even understand doing this. When sales are declining companies must sometimes make changes they think will spur sales, even if they know in advance that those changes might alienate existing customers. If, at the end of the day, they gain more new customers than they alienate, it's still a win for them.

[Doctor Doom]

Alternatively Baloik, we can go for that oh-so-alien point of view that they WERE respecting the characterisation and that just because your take doesn't agree with them it doesn't mean anyone who disagrees with you is automatically wrong.

[balok]

I'm not resuming this argument. Sorry, you'll need to look elsewhere for fun...

[imperiusrex]

balok said:

I'm not resuming this argument. Sorry, you'll need to look elsewhere for fun...

haha bravo sir. you deserve an exalt...

[Tone-Loc]

Maybe its just me, but to me its pretty obvious that she's just the MU's Cindy Sheehan.

[balok]

toneloc said:

Maybe its just me, but to me its pretty obvious that she's just the MU's Cindy Sheehan.

As an activist for a popular public position, she fits that role. But as a supporter of the SHRA, her ideology is assuredly conservative. It is the conservatives whose recent position has been that safety trumps freedoms: we are expected to hand the government freedoms in exchange for a safety that is routinely shown to be illusory. Sheehan, especially around the fourteenth minute or so of her fame, was clearly a liberal ideologue.

[Tone-Loc]

I get it that the SHRA is analogous for the Patriot Act, etc... which have been enacted by the current group of neo-cons Republicans(and which, in theory, are supposed to only be temporary restrictions during a time of war, which there is precedence for... previosuly enacted by the other party... natch).

But as far as permanent laws, which is the main difference between intentions of the SHRA and the stated intentions of the current real life restricitons, that would seem to be a more liberal idea. Conservatives ... true conservatives... are supposed to believe in restricting government to its bare necessities... whereas liberals tend to want to use the government to cure all of societies ills.

As I said, I get the comparisons Marvel is drawing with the SHRA... and they are fair comparisons for the most part... but it seems to me that government regulation typically is made at the behest of liberals, while de-regulation has been the call of true conservatives (not your neo-con, moral majority Republicans).

[Doctor Doom]

I'm not resuming this argument. Sorry, you'll need to look elsewhere for fun...

d**n!

Ever since Ultron left the site there's been a void in my life.

It is the conservatives whose recent position has been that safety trumps freedoms: we are expected to hand the government freedoms in exchange for a safety that is routinely shown to be illusory.

There are pretty much equal arguments on both sides of the "SHRA is Liberal!" or "SHRA is conservative!" argument. The general argument of the majority is "I dislike Conservatives, I dislike SHRA, therefore SHRA = Conservative", which is complete rubbish.

Personally I think the SHRA has much more liberal leanings, similar to Gun Registration. In the comics themselves it's a bipartisan bill with near unanimous support, and gets people from both sides of the aisle believing it fits THEIR party's ideology, plus it's stated that Tony Stark donated money to the Democratic Party.

[The Night Phantom]

I recently wrote about political assignation of labels to ideologies, and I submit those comments in reaction to the discussion here.

However, I will specifically address this bit:

docdoom said:

In the comics themselves it's a bipartisan bill with near unanimous support, and gets people from both sides of the aisle believing it fits THEIR party's ideology, plus it's stated that Tony Stark donated money to the Democratic Party.

Actually, some contributors deliberately donate to both major parties or to rival candidates in particular races so that the contributor will be owed by whoever wins. (Of course, if you’re a futurist foreseeing the victor, you might as well save your money and contribute just to the winning side.)

But what I really want to point out is that “bipartisan” is the great American smokescreen. It’s a word bandied about as if it showed some great moral value. As if favoring two particular old-boy networks that are already in bed together while shutting out not only alternate parties but even more importantly nonpartisan interests were the very picture of justice. As though the film Death Race 2000, with its aristocratic Bipartisan Party complete with archdeacon, were a blueprint and not a satire.

[Doctor Bong]

Well said, Night Phantom!!!

[Nutcase65]

balok said:

I'm not resuming this argument. Sorry, you'll need to look elsewhere for fun...

To be perfectly fair you told him to do it.

[balok]

nutcase65 said:

To be perfectly fair you told him to do it.

It's a fair criticism - I realized after I posted that my opinion could be conditional flame bait, i.e. flame bait only for those with strong contradictory opinions. Hence my decision to drop it.

[Nutcase65]

I don't think it's fair to say that Doom is flaming. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
(obscure Seinfeld reference)

[Doctor Bong]

Flame off, Doom!!! Remember you have priceless paintings in your castle...

[Nutcase65]

Y'know, Miriam does look a little like Ultron in MA 1. Maybe Stark's been training HER to be Iron Man. (not really)

[balok]

Or maybe Ulton has been part of Extremis for far longer than many people believe!

[Doctor Doom]

ua2 said:

Flame off, Doom!!! Remember you have priceless paintings in your castle...

And you really think Doom keeps the ORIGINALS where any but Doom could see them and they may be disrupted by walls being knocked in when people come around for friendly chats?

[imperiusrex]

the problem I have with Miriam Sharpe is what does she do, exactly?
If you introduce a character, especially as your everyman character that character should somehow grow with the story. Yet Miriam seems pretty much the same from her first appearance to the last panel.
Where's her arc, where's her story?
Think about Phil Sheldon from Marvels, or the Trickster from Underworld Unleashed.
I think if nothing else it would've been great if she'd been established as some superliberal who eventually turned on her beliefs because of what happened, and then realized that all the superheroes, both pro and con did was bring about more death and violence and pretty much turned her back on Tony at the conclusion because he'll never understand how it feels to be one of the normals who has to live in their world. I'm not saying that's the way to go, but at least it would've given her a progression.
If they'd just given her SOMETHING besides grief as a defining characteristic then maybe people wouldn't have been guessing she was a villain in disguise. Instead she was a cipher and seemed like an empty plot device...

[Nutcase65]

That about wraps it up in a nutshell. It just felt they could've done something more with her.

Also the name of her son left me looking for something more devious

[imperiusrex]

nutcase65 said:

That about wraps it up in a nutshell. It just felt they could've done something more with her.

Also the name of her son left me looking for something more devious

I don't care what they say about ya, nutcase-- anybody who recognizes my brilliance is okay by me ;D.

[Doctor Doom]

Well Imperius, Miriam was really just a plot device, and an effective one at that. Not a character with an arc- because really, the only possible "arc" would be to have her turn in some way anti which contradicts the point of the story and runs against the whole purpose of her character.

To be fair, compare Miriam Sharpe to Layla Miller as a plot device and Miriam wins by a factor of ten

[balok]

She was there as the mouthpiece of the pro-registration civilians. To change her would have diluted that. Of course, we never got to see the mouthpiece of the anti-registration civilians...

Now, real irony would be if she died during World War Hulk, yards from some superhuman who might have rescued her but prefers instead not to be imprisoned for being what he is!

[Nutcase65]

balok said:

She was there as the mouthpiece of the pro-registration civilians. To change her would have diluted that. Of course, we never got to see the mouthpiece of the anti-registration civilians...

Now, real irony would be if she died during World War Hulk, yards from some superhuman who might have rescued her but prefers instead not to be imprisoned for being what he is!

That would be good writing,... you're hired.

[Doctor Doom]

It would indeed be irony Balok if she ended up killed because a hero was such a moron he cared more about selfish ends than what being a hero is all about, just as her son was!

That IS what you meant in that scenario, right?