ON THE MORALITY OF IRON MAN'S ACTIONS

[balok]

shiryu said:

The more I read this, the more it sounds like a debate on whether the end justify the means. Depending on the answer to this question, we decide if Tony actions were right or not.

As written in Civil War, both Tony and Cap clearly believed that. One must ask whether that is heroic, considering the outcome - Tony committed all kinds of crimes, and between the men over fifty people died who need not have.

One might even make the case that Reed came to believe this, for his role in the affair was driven by his belief in a nascent science the creators shamelessly stole from Asimov's psychohistory (they hung a lantern on it, so that makes it okay in their minds, I suppose).

[Doctor Doom]

And yet AGAIN we have a hater taking an interesting concept which was inspired by something old, and calling it "shamelessly ripping off", because they don't like the idea. Imagine my shock.

Guess what, me and 90% of FF fans, even those who hated civil war, thought the psychohistory was a nice touch. To call it "blatantly ripping off" is to blatantly lie.

[balok]

docdoom said:

And yet AGAIN we have a hater taking an interesting concept which was inspired by something old, and calling it "shamelessly ripping off", because they don't like the idea. Imagine my shock.

What's a "hater" Doc? Someone who disagrees with you? I believe that henceforth, I shall call you a "cheerleader."

docdoom said:

Guess what, me and 90% of FF fans, even those who hated civil war, thought the psychohistory was a nice touch. To call it "blatantly ripping off" is to blatantly lie.

You may have thought it was a nice touch, but - Asimov did it first and did it better. Therefore, you cannot credibly argue that FF didn't steal Asimov's ideas.

If you don't believe me, go look up the Foundation series of books, and then look up when they were published.

[Doctor Bong]

Exactly, Shiryu: I agree that's the gist of this: does the end justify the means...?
I think, as much as our attitudes about the government & how much trust we're willing to grant them a priori, the big generational divide here seems to be our opinion on this; most of us old timers seem to believe that no, a "good" end is not justified by crooked means, and that true heroes (at least imaginary ones...) don't behave in such fashion...
The younger guys seem to feel that this, while regrettable, is acceptable as long as the desired end is achieved.

[Doctor Bong]

E.g.: IM's actions weren't so terrible because his gambles paid off & he achieved the results he was hoping for...

[Doctor Bong]

Doom: it may well be that it was intended as a nice touch & even a homage, but I think perhaps one of our main problems with the "borrowing" of Psychohistory for the CW storyline is that the whole concept seems to have been concocted solely in order to be able to justify Reed's involvement as a Pro-Regger.

[balok]

ua2 said:

Doom: it may well be that it was intended as a nice touch & even a homage, but I think perhaps one of our main problems with the "borrowing" of Psychohistory for the CW storyline is that the whole concept seems to have been concocted solely in order to be able to justify Reed's involvement as a Pro-Regger.

That's certainly the core of my objection to it - a cheap device to justify out of character decisions.

Civil War's chief message seems to be that the ends justify the means, and I can't agree. Doing wrong, even if the goal is to do right, remains wrongdoing. Eventually, the line becomes blurred and people cross it more readily. And before long, no one remembers the difference between right and wrong.

[Doctor Doom]

Acutally, it is clearly irrevocably and beyond doubt stated that the ends only justify the means less than 3% of the time. In the same comic you're speaking about.

Now that doesn't sound like "HEY KIDS! ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS!" to me. Nor does the whole "If we don't do this, earth will die" thing you neglect to mention.

And if this is "stealing" then by God, Stan Lee must be among the worst thieves on the history of Earth! Why, he STOLE half his Thor concepts from Norse myth! What a rip-off! I cry shame upon him! Let's go burn him in effigy!

[balok]

docdoom said:

Acutally, it is clearly irrevocably and beyond doubt stated that the ends only justify the means less than 3% of the time. In the same comic you're speaking about.

And how, exactly, does one arrive at that figure? Because a writer put a piece of dialogue in someone's mouth? Suppose someone appeared on your doorstep and said, "I have to shoot you, because my theory suggests that you'll emerge as a dictator in ten years and start a war that destroys most of the world." Suppose further that they demonstrated the truth of their theory to you. Would you let them shoot you? What if their theory predicted your kid would be that dictator? Would you let them shoot him?

Bad means may lead to good ends, temporarily. But over the long haul, bad means lead eventually only to bad ends. History proves this pretty conclusively.

docdoom said:

And if this is "stealing" then by God, Stan Lee must be among the worst thieves on the history of Earth! Why, he STOLE half his Thor concepts from Norse myth! What a rip-off! I cry shame upon him! Let's go burn him in effigy!

Well, there's some difference between a concept not (yet) in the public domain from a single author, and a concept created thousands of years ago by an entire culture...

Still, my real ire at the use of it remains as I said: it was a cheap device to shoehorn Reed onto the pro-reg side. Poor characterization, and therefore poor storytelling.

[Doctor Bong]

I was reading about the Infinity Gems (of which I'm a big fan) on Wilkipedia when I was startled to find out that they had resurfaced recently, when Reed decided to grab them preemtively... It turns out now each of the original 6 gems is in the possession of one of the members of the Illuminati...! And Iron Man turns out to have in his possession the Reality Gem...! I shudder to think what this brave, NEW IM could do with such power at his disposal, should he again feel the means justify the ends...!!!

[Nutcase65]

I the context of protecting America, it is Immoral

In order to protect America, the rights we believe in must be protected. I think one of the best viewpoints was Peter Parker. He got to see things from both sides. He saw, in the end that Stark was violating the rights of Americans

In the context of human rights, it is also immoral.

Look at Stark himself,.. look at the heroes on his side,... for the most part it was "Might makes right" Stronger scale heroes saying to the world "We will use our strength to protect you whether you want it or not."

I kept reading the series hoping Stark would in some way show that there was some angle we weren't seeing in his behavior. Sadly it was just like Cap pointed out. Tony has always done things the way Tony wants it, not willing to admit anyone else might be right.

[Doctor Doom]

Stronger scale heroes saying to the world "We will use our strength to protect you whether you want it or not."

Ah but the difference is, I'd say that about CAP'S team. The Pros had huge public backing, they were using strength to protect people who, by colossal majority, wanted them to. CAP was the one saying "We will do what we want, because we know best, and the majority of you people are WRONG!"

[Nutcase65]

That is a valid point, but Cap is the one who realized this,.. and surrendered rather than keep using force.

I think I'm thinking also of cloning,and then once the Clor turned out homicidal, they were willing to keep using him. Notice they didn't do any testing, they just put him back out there.

But you are right, elements of both sides subscribe to that viewpoint.

As far as the public opinion goes, let me put it this way. If you were to go to the public the week after 9-11 and say "We will guarantee that nothing like this will ever happen again, the only price will be the restrictions of the freedoms of a handful of individuals". The majority would probably support that stand.
That majority would also be wrong. I believe that once you start infringing on freedoms, all freedoms start falling away faster and faster.
I think that is one of the themes the series was addressing.

[Doctor Bong]

I believe Benjamin Franklin said it best: "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

[Nutcase65]

yuppers, that's what I was goin' for. I believe it is also a theme that has repeated itself through marvel history.