The Future of Super Villains in post Civil War Mar

[overlord]

It seems to me that the Civil War crossover really defanged the super villain community in MU. No super villain really took advantage of the fact the super hero community was warring with itself. Now that Civil War is over, lets look at the aftermath, Tony Stark now has control of SHIELD and has a virtual army of super heroes at his command. Tony stark holds all the cards and the super villain community is now at a serious disadvantage here. Many super villains were neutralized during CW and are now either being held in the negative Zone prison or forced to work for the government. How are super villains supposed to pose a threat in world where they are being opposed by an organized, government backed, army of super heroes?

[thew40]

overlord said:

How are super villains supposed to pose a threat in world where they are being opposed by an organized, government backed, army of super heroes?

That's exactly the thought Tony Stark, Reed Richards, and Hank Pym probably had when they came up with the concept of the Intiative/42.

What does this mean for the super-villian population? Well, the "big guns" are still out there - Kang, Ultron, Doom, etc. Secondary villians that were flash-in-the-pan are probably being shipped to 42, but I'm certain we'll see stories about them escaping.

All 42 is, I think, a new concept of the Vault.

~W~

[balok]

At some point, it seems there won't be any more. Villains who are caught get injected with nanites and shanghaied into the Thunderbolts, right?

Of course, this neglects to consider the point that Doctor Doom and I disagree on: that as of right now, Iron Man is being written as a villain: he is a thief and a murderer who thinks nothing of psychologically manipulating his former colleagues and using nanotechnology to brainwash his enemies. If any other character in the Marvel Universe did these things, prior to Civil War, they'd be considered a villain...

[overlord]

balok said:

At some point, it seems there won't be any more. Villains who are caught get injected with nanites and shanghaied into the Thunderbolts, right?

Of course, this neglects to consider the point that Doctor Doom and I disagree on: that as of right now, Iron Man is being written as a villain: he is a thief and a murderer who thinks nothing of psychologically manipulating his former colleagues and using nanotechnology to brainwash his enemies. If any other character in the Marvel Universe did these things, prior to Civil War, they'd be considered a villain...

Perhaps, but I think most readers on this board would rather see heroes fight traditional villains, rather just see Tony contiue to act like a jerk. As for the Thunderbolt thing, I doubt it will stick, unless all future writers agree not use any street level villains, I don't think every street level villain level will become a Thuderbolt. I doubt marvel would want to limit itself creatively like that. What will Spider-Man no longer fight his rogues gallery because they are all T-bolts now? If that's the case, what will Spidey's titles be about?

Besides there are ways around this stuff, I believe a villain like the Mad Thinker, could use Tony's victory to his advantage, he could use a computer virus to overide the nano controls enslaving the T-bolts and then he would have an amry of super villains at his command.

[balok]

overlord said:

Perhaps, but I think most readers on this board would rather see heroes fight traditional villains, rather just see Tony contiue to act like a jerk. As for the Thunderbolt thing, I doubt it will stick, unless all future writers agree not use any street level villains, I don't think every street level villain level will become a Thuderbolt. I doubt marvel would want to limit itself creatively like that. What will Spider-Man no longer fight his rogues gallery because they are all T-bolts now? If that's the case, what will Spidey's titles be about?

Oh, I agree. Unless I'm very much mistaken they will eventually have to undo some of this stuff, in order to restore their ability to tell stories. I suspect (and, I must admit, hope) that sales will plummet now that Civil War is actually over, and Marvel will have to do what comic book companies always do in that situation - reinvent itself again.

overlord said:

Besides there are ways around this stuff, I believe a villain like the Mad Thinker, could use Tony's victory to his advantage, he could use a computer virus to overide the nano controls enslaving the T-bolts and then he would have an amry of super villains at his command.

Absolutely. In fact, told properly that could be the kind of story that does what must be done to fix this mess: convince Marvel Q. Public that he's no better off with the Fifty State initiative than he was before.

[overlord]

balok said:

overlord said:

Perhaps, but I think most readers on this board would rather see heroes fight traditional villains, rather just see Tony contiue to act like a jerk. As for the Thunderbolt thing, I doubt it will stick, unless all future writers agree not use any street level villains, I don't think every street level villain level will become a Thuderbolt. I doubt marvel would want to limit itself creatively like that. What will Spider-Man no longer fight his rogues gallery because they are all T-bolts now? If that's the case, what will Spidey's titles be about?

Oh, I agree. Unless I'm very much mistaken they will eventually have to undo some of this stuff, in order to restore their ability to tell stories. I suspect (and, I must admit, hope) that sales will plummet now that Civil War is actually over, and Marvel will have to do what comic book companies always do in that situation - reinvent itself again.

overlord said:

Besides there are ways around this stuff, I believe a villain like the Mad Thinker, could use Tony's victory to his advantage, he could use a computer virus to overide the nano controls enslaving the T-bolts and then he would have an amry of super villains at his command.

Absolutely. In fact, told properly that could be the kind of story that does what must be done to fix this mess: convince Marvel Q. Public that he's no better off with the Fifty State initiative than he was before.

I think in the end Tony's 100 ideas will ultimately fail and he will likely have to go crawling back to cap, because it will very hard to tell super hero vs. super villain stories in this current status quo.

Besides all this power is going to make Tony really smug. In light of the upcomming Iron man (which features Mandrain as the villain) I hope the Mandarin comes back, smashes Tony's little empire, leaving him a broken and defeated man, who has to crawl back to Cap. That will teach him a lesson in humility.

[thew40]

balok said:

At some point, it seems there won't be any more. Villains who are caught get injected with nanites and shanghaied into the Thunderbolts, right?

Wrong.

Only those chosen by CSA are Thunderbolts and that team membership is locked in. No more, no less. All of the others that were recruited to take down Cap were placed into 42 at the end of "Civil War" # 7.

You are reading these comics, right?

~W~

[balok]

Thunderbolts had an *awful* lot of members back when Zemo was running it - several issues ago. There were dozens of them. I was left with the impression that it was a huge army and they picked the ones they wanted for a particular job.

Even if this is not true, based on the horrible mischaracterization of Tony we read of in Frontline #11, where his actions are those of a villain, it's only a matter of time until he gets around to using the nanomachines on other villains. Because power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[thew40]

balok said:

Thunderbolts had an *awful* lot of members back when Zemo was running it - several issues ago. There were dozens of them. I was left with the impression that it was a huge army and they picked the ones they wanted for a particular job.

At the end of "Civil War" # 7, we can see various super-villians being herded into 42, as well as Reed's letter confirming such.

And let's just try and ignore Tony from Frontline # 11. That was, I dunno, a Skrull.

~W~

[The Night Phantom]

Well, then it’s the same Skrull we’ve seen all throughout this mess.

Actually, I favor the idea of Kang/Immortus influencing Tony again, even though that dredges up memories of another regrettable period.

[thew40]

nightphantom said:

Well, then it’s the same Skrull we’ve seen all throughout this mess.

Actually, I favor the idea of Kang/Immortus influencing Tony again, even though that dredges up memories of another regrettable period.

Like I've said before, some writers have done a better job at handling Tony than others.

For example, Heroes for Hire, Thunderbolts, Captain America/Iron Man, Civil War: X-Men, Wolverine, and Civil War itself seem to do a good job at portraying a much more balanced and traditional Iron Man.

Unfortunately, Amazing Spider-Man, Frontline, and maybe a few others that I can't think of at the moment really give us a slanted version of ol' Shellhead.

If by some chance we do see a retcon in the future, I'd rather see SOME of his actions influenced by others, while other actions were all his own.

~W~

[The Night Phantom]

thew40 said:

Like I've said before, some writers have done a better job at handling Tony than others.

For example, Heroes for Hire, Thunderbolts, Captain America/Iron Man, Civil War: X-Men, Wolverine, and Civil War itself seem to do a good job at portraying a much more balanced and traditional Iron Man.

Unfortunately, Amazing Spider-Man, Frontline, and maybe a few others that I can't think of at the moment really give us a slanted version of ol' Shellhead.

Of course, that’s your slant.

[Tana Nile]

nightphantom said:

Well, then it’s the same Skrull we’ve seen all throughout this mess.

LMAO!! Yeah, that's one heck of consistent skrull.

My god, as terrible as that sounds, I almost wish that was the truth....at least then I could still respect Stark.

[Doctor Bong]

Has Marvel truly given up all across the board on thought balloons...? If so, that could work to the advantage of implementing such a retconn at some point...
However, if that's not the case, is there any time during the whole CW event when Tony is shown as expicitly thinking (believing or knowing) he, indeed, IS the real Tony Stark...? I don't know, because I quit early on in disgust...

[balok]

thew40 said:

At the end of "Civil War" # 7, we can see various super-villians being herded into 42, as well as Reed's letter confirming such.

Alright. I'll take your word for this, since my copy of Civil War #7 is currently unavailable to me (I loaned it out).

I think, then, that the CSA chose *extremely* poorly in who they selected, and I think Thunderbolts #111 and their pursuit of Jack Flag explains why.

I also object to the use of nanomachines in this way. I consider it an evil thing to do, to take someone's free will away like that. And we both know (or should) that with such technology, it wouldn't be very long before the use of it would broaden - for that is how politicians and power players view the rest of us, as tools or as nuisances.

thew40 said:

And let's just try and ignore Tony from Frontline # 11. That was, I dunno, a Skrull.

Believe me, I wish I could, for it amounts to gross mischaracterization of the man and a deep and profound disrespect for his heroic legacy. Unfortunately, it is entirely consistent with his acts of manipulation and the evil things he did to advance his agenda. You can read more, if you care to, in the Frontline #11 thread, where I discuss the issue with Doctor Doom at greater length. Summed up: it's not an imaginary story, it wasn't written by Jenkins in a vacuum, and it is sadly representative of the modern Marvel Universe's deep disdain for the freedoms that make America what it is.

Believe it or not, in the early days I was close to certain that the architects of Civil War would turn out to be Space Phantoms, or some such thing, that had replaced the real heroes. How I wish I had been right.

[Nutcase65]

At some point some lawyer will question the constitutionality of 42. they'll be back.

Or in the case of the nanotech, there will always arise someone to hack the tech.

Mind controllers will arise to pit one states heroes against another.

If they can constantly come back from the dead, they can come back from this