|
Post by thew40 on Feb 26, 2007 21:05:30 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by balok on Feb 26, 2007 21:44:33 GMT -5
Best line in the entire interview.
This line betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of Cap.
It does support Doctor Doom's contention that Cap surrendered because he saw that public opinion was against him. But a key aspect of freedom is that it surpasses being compelled to do something because the majority want you to. Some things are anti-freedom, and it doesn't matter how many people have been tricked, scared, or reasoned into supporting them. Cap knows this - except in Civil War #7.
|
|
|
Post by The Night Phantom on Feb 26, 2007 22:00:37 GMT -5
This line betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of Cap. And, for that matter, of America.
|
|
|
Post by redstatecap on Feb 26, 2007 22:50:13 GMT -5
Judas Priest -- one can only imagine what that idea was if Millar thinks CW is good by comparison.
He must consider throwing darts and sipping martinis "labor," because the time clearly wasn't spent researching basic characterization and Marvel Universe history, not to mention little details like the U.S. Constitution and legal system.
Yet no one thought to bring up the fact that Iron Man is suddenly a fascist thug, Reed a spineless tool, and Cap a wacko revolutionary. Must be a real bunch of geniuses there, yessiree bob.
Wow. Millar's original drafts must've had Iron Man raping nuns while he sang the Star Spangled Banner.
Words fail me.
Bullsh*t. Bull F*cking Sh*t.
Guess that doesn't include little details like SHRA being flagrantly fascist and unconstitutional, or SHIELD trying to arrest Cap on the quiet before SHRA was law, or Tony and Reed cloning Thor without consent or knowledge, or arresting and imprisoning people without trial, or killing Bill Foster, or the negative zone prison, or etc. But other than that, Tony's side was portrayed positively. lol
Except in the MU, these are these people called supervillains. They like to try to take over the world, and stuff.
Obviously Millar understands neither Cap, nor America.
Guess what? The villains are going to break out of the negative zone prison as soon as CW is done, because Marvel needs villains for the heroes to fight. Unless, that is, Marvel does something crazy like turn the heroes on each other.
RSC
|
|
|
Post by thew40 on Feb 26, 2007 23:39:54 GMT -5
You can be a real jerk, redstatecap.
~W~
|
|
|
Post by imperiusrex on Feb 27, 2007 0:42:38 GMT -5
actually you're just someone with an opinion, rsc. sorry if some don't like you sharing it. however I'm just as sure if someone had come on here with effusive praises of millar for three hundred words, that wouldn't have been an issue. yet say something not positive and you're a jerk. I always thought freedom of speech was a two way street and if someone is allowed to love something, then someone else is allowed to dislike it. and if the two parties have stated their intent without breaking the rules of whatever forum they're in, their posts are acceptable. I myself think Millar doesn't get Cap either and that IM seemed terribly out of character and definitely do not think he has anything close to a love for old marvel. Look James Robinson killed any number of characters during his run on Starman, replaced the venerable golden ager with a young tattooed punk, and actually killed off the title character and brought him back. he was also a big part of the JSA revival (with Johns and Goyer)and again, revered characters were replaced and all the things we complain about with marvel were done and again the book was acclaimed. many of these things would be met with scorn in other titles, yet he managed to do all this with a sense of love and history that fans embraced. and I've rarely read a negative review of his work on any title. Alan Moore did this sort of stuff all the time too. And he was never met with the kind of resistance that current marvel titles are. so I just don't really think it's a matter of a segment of fans just blindly disliking a lot of what marvel is doing. maybe (and this is a possibility) what's coming out of marvel just massively sucks to a certain fan population. people say this about hollywood and TV all the time. there are whole huge audiences that refuse to pay 10 or 11 dollars for a movie because they don't think the quality is there. sales are up? well, not incredibly. not impossibly, especially given the new methods people can get their books. people rip the net, but it gives millions of fans opportunity to get books they might not otherwise get. I visit Wisconsin twice a year and can tell you in most of the major cities it is hard to find a real comic shop. Now if I lived there, I wouldn't need to. With high speed internet, I could read previews, see sample pages and order twenty books online and have them by the end of the week. That has to have some impact on sales. I guess just as you're sick and tired of people being vocal and disliking Millar and a lot of what marvel is putting out, I'm tired of defending my and other people's right to not like it. But I will tell you this, it ain't gonna stop. but at least I wont call anyone a jerk.
|
|
|
Post by redstatecap on Feb 27, 2007 0:49:03 GMT -5
You can be a real jerk, redstatecap. ~W~ Why? Because I utterly despise what Millar has done to the Marvel characters and history I know? I don't know how many times this has to be explained to you. You like it. You're excited about it. You want to talk about it. That's your right. I hate it. I'm going to lay every ounce of savage criticism and ridicule on the story that it deserves. That's my right. This is a public forum, and people who disagree with you are going to express it. I am perfectly happy to be civil to other posters who strongly disagree with me, but I do not agree to reserve comment on work I consider to be abhorrent. You seem to consistently believe that people must either agree with your own rosy opinions, or else be silent. That isn't how things work. You know the opinion that many posters here hold of Civil War and Millar. How can the respose be a surprise to you? Thanks for the link to the interview, by the way. RSC
|
|
|
Post by thew40 on Feb 27, 2007 9:13:09 GMT -5
So you guys are allowed to say stuff like that about Bendis and Millar, but I'm not allowed to say that about you?
Really fair . . .
I think, as long as you're sitting there, telling us that Millar is just spewing bullcrap and is being "offensive" and lying and whatnot, I'll just have the same attitude towards you.
~W~
|
|
|
Post by dlw66 on Feb 27, 2007 10:09:17 GMT -5
I view these boards somewhat like political talk-radio or sportstalk radio. I think people in the public eye open themselves up to criticism. Rightly or wrongly, that's the mantle one accepts when they enter a public position. In addition, we are paying their salaries. We have a right to praise/ridicule, within the bounds of decency.
|
|
|
Post by imperiusrex on Feb 27, 2007 10:09:34 GMT -5
So you guys are allowed to say stuff like that about Bendis and Millar, but I'm not allowed to say that about you? Really fair . . . I think, as long as you're sitting there, telling us that Millar is just spewing bullcrap and is being "offensive" and lying and whatnot, I'll just have the same attitude towards you. ~W~ Well I'll tell you what, when I become the subject of threads and I am directly involved with what happens in the pages of a marvel comic I would expect you to express your opinion about my work as we are discussing the Avengers. It's not like any of us are saying Millar, Bendis, Quesada et al. are smothering puppies and not paying their taxes. However, if you are allowed to say something like "Millar has a great take on these characters," I'm allowed to have my say about how far off he is. Oh and a few adults allow themselves to get a little spicy with their language. Oh heavens... However if we're going to get to the point where individual members start taking it upon themselves to start returning those volleys that are aimed at the talent and topics we discuss, the board will swiftly fall into ruin and divide into sides and perhaps even become...a...a...Civil War! Oh no, Avenger fan against Avenger fan! sides will be taken, lines will be drawn and the Avengers Assemble board will never be the same again! Now where did I leave Thor's hair at??
|
|
|
Post by dlw66 on Feb 27, 2007 10:21:22 GMT -5
Rex, you and I were obviously typing at the same time!!
|
|
|
Post by Tana Nile on Feb 27, 2007 11:10:50 GMT -5
This line betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of Cap. And, for that matter, of America. This is exactly what I was thinking when I read that interview. Millar has no idea what Cap is about. The thing that gets me is, he professes to be an "old school" fan - did he ever read Englehart's Secret Empire stories? Or the stuff when Cap became just the Captain? Maybe in his mind, "old school" is Heroes Reborn! Geez. It doesn't take much depth of knowledge to know that Captain America has committed himself to the ideals that this nation was founded on - not to any single administration, and certainly not to the will of the masses! What is even more terrible about this is that no one else involved with CW corrected it. Sometimes I wonder if any of the current Marvel creators really know the universe they're working in. We need a Marvel equivalent to Mark Waid. As for the other debate raging in this forum, I think it's fair game to criticize the work and statements of the creators of these books, otherwise, there's no point in having a forum! Those of us here have diverse views on these matters, so of course we are going to disagree, and sometimes strongly disagree. These are, after all, characters we care about deeply (because we are insane!). But that shouldn't result in us attacking each other. I'd hate to see this spiral down into name-calling and mud-slinging. That's not the kind of forum I'd want to be involved in.
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Feb 27, 2007 12:16:37 GMT -5
I honestly don't think I've ever been remotely as pissed off at any thread on this forum as I am at this one, so I'm gonna go right ahead and simply say it. I disagree with the assertion that he doesn't get Cap, but I can argue with that, and know I'll have another argument.
It's on another matter which I just cannot take it anymore and have to snap. Yet AGAIN, RSC, I find you completely wrong, I love your ability to take things utterly out of context, think your little "I'm right and anyone who disagrees with me is most DEFINITELY, BEYOND DOUBT not only a moron but also someone with no taste at all in comics, is adorable, and most of all your ability to twist anything anyone says beyond recognition so you can harp at it to be nothing short of uncanny. The fact that the majority of this website finds your preposterous and inane posts to be acceptable says a great deal about the sorry state of this site in general, and the sheer unmatched level of arrogance you display is literally unsurpassed in anything I have ever seen.
DLW said we have the right to criticse within the boundaries of decency. Your persistant idiocy, RSC is far outside those boundaries. Imperiusrex's own defence of you by assigning your pathetic and ridiculously over-the-top criticism to "just an opinion"- despite your clear and persistent insistence that any who disagree with you are mentally incompetent, which you made most particularly clear in our former debate, and Rex's - and your- determination that anyone who likes ANY marvee project at all is an idiot and an apologist, is nearly as bad.
I've been increasingly annoyed with these boards for some time but this is the last straw. I frankly cannot take it anymore, so I'll be leaving for as long as it takes to clear my head and maybe some seemblence of what was once known as REASON to be restored to this sham of a board. To those who have kept that reason- Night Phantom, Tananile, shiryu, spiderwasp, the ever-admirable dlw66 and of course our valiant mod Van Plexico, and most of all to Thew40- I don't know how you cope with it- I fully apologize and bear no ill will towards any of you, whatever you may now think of me.
Good day to you all, and goodbye.
|
|
Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
|
Post by Tone-Loc on Feb 27, 2007 12:46:56 GMT -5
I have exalted Doctor Doom for his honesty and passion for what he believes in.
Too bad it looks like he pulled a "Cap" and realized that the majority must be right, and surrendered.
|
|
|
Post by dlw66 on Feb 27, 2007 12:59:44 GMT -5
I, too, exalted our friend from across the pond. And, toneloc, as soon as I am recharged and in exalting mode again, you too will be exalted for your bit of comedy!!
|
|
|
Post by imperiusrex on Feb 27, 2007 13:13:48 GMT -5
hrm. dunno if I'd exalt someone for taking their potshots and then taking their ball and leaving... if you're going to leave, leave with grace and go without ripping people as you leave. now if I respond to his statement it's just pointless as I can say anything without him to assert a differing opinion. to me this is the worst way to end a discussion.
|
|
|
Post by dlw66 on Feb 27, 2007 13:20:39 GMT -5
Ah, Rex, you know he'll be lurking in "not logged in" land anyways...
|
|
|
Post by imperiusrex on Feb 27, 2007 13:52:32 GMT -5
Ah, Rex, you know he'll be lurking in "not logged in" land anyways... I suppose. hey we disagreed on whether or not he shopuld be exalted. and look we managed to respect each other's opinions on the matter, even though our viewpoints are wholly different. fancy that...
|
|
|
Post by dlw66 on Feb 27, 2007 13:59:25 GMT -5
You know what I appreciate about Doom, W, and their "ilk"? They've got the gumption to continue to come back time and again and defend their POV. They get blasted every time, but they just keep coming. They are our own little "Juggernauts" around here, I guess. So while I don't agree with Doom's parting shot, I just karma-ed him because I appreciate his tenacity. I think he has passion for what he likes and generally states his case well.
And yeah, we can disagree. Shoot, we're so old we'll probably forget about it tomorrow!!
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Bong on Feb 27, 2007 14:58:47 GMT -5
I mentioned on the thread "Frustration", initiated by thew40, that I believed it was only natural for some of us to hatedly debate & even clash over some of these issues, due to our love & passion for Marvel & comics in general. Do you suppose, in this little "Civil War" of our own over Mr. Bendis & other current Marvel writers, that our positions on this, over time, have become more & more radical...? Doctor Doom has just stated his decision to stay away until he clears his head (lets hope it doesn't take so long...) and I, for one, didn't see it coming this time... He always seemed so amused by differing opinions, and so cool & in control when offering his lenghty replies... On the other hand, from the opposite side of the road, we also "lost" 1st Ultron & then, apparently, bobc, although they both seem to have had less of a flair for the theatric than the good Doctor, and they just plain dropped out of sight... But to go back to my question, I wonder if we're experiencing a hardening of our respective positions here, a polarization of sorts, and if such polarization is taking it's toll on the AA members with the strongest opinions, whether they be Pro-Bendis (et al), like Doctor Doom, or Anti-Bendis, such as bobc or Ultron.
|
|
|
Post by dlw66 on Feb 27, 2007 15:20:35 GMT -5
As I stated in a post I made over on the NA side of things, under the #26 thread -- there were elements of NA that I thought were well done. In the aforementioned post I specifically referred to the Iron Man issue. When I voted for the best single panel for our Jarvis Awards, it was the scene where all of the Iron Man armors show up to defeat the adaptoid. BUT, overall I have a great deal of dissatisfaction with NA and with Bendis' handling of such. I also resent the lack of concern for the older reader.
Do I like some Marvel stuff? -- yes. Am I overall displeased? -- yes. I guess that's why I'm a little more tolerant of Doom's and W's positions. I also think they are substantially younger than many of us -- does that tend toward more of a "rose-colored glasses" view on their part? -- maybe...
|
|
|
Post by thew40 on Feb 27, 2007 17:15:50 GMT -5
I'm pretty much standing behind Doctor Doom. He's the Captain America to my Falcon!
In all seriousness, I've just about had it with this site. I'm stepping back (again). Let me be clear, though, as far as my reasons go.
I have no problem with most of you. Despite disagreements and snarky comments, the lot of you have rather grown on me.
But there seems to be a few (two of which Doctor Doom named, but there are another one or two I would mention) that seem to be in the nature of living in negativity and arrogance, denouncing ever single Marvel project, nitpicking every little detail, and really just being an overall jerk.
I got some appluase in regards to still coming here and still posting things that I'm excited about. Do you know why I do that? Here's why. I hold on to some special, secret hope that maybe - JUST MAYBE - someone other than Doctor Doom and iastagehand will have something positive to say and maybe even get a little excited about a project. And even if they disagree, maybe not turning the thread into the usual "I hate Quesada/Bendis/Millar thread."
There seems to be an overwhelming need to look on the negative side of things here. Just look at that interview. Did anyone see when he talked about how much Millar loved the old comics? Did anyone read about how he insisted that no one gets killed in the end?
No. Instead, everything that he said was placed under a microscope, looked at in a harshly negative light, and dragged through the mud.
That is why I called you a jerk, RSC. Because all you did was pick out some quotes and dragged 'em through the mud. You crossed a line of deceny. There was no reason for Millar to lie in that interview, and yet you just went ahead and accused him of it anyways, then insulted what he had to say. That maybe free speech, but it just makes you sound like a jerk. Where are your points to defend your claims?
It's this persistent negativity, this lack of enjoyment, this seeming never-ending need to turn every thread about a new project or new comic into a endless stream of Marvel-bashing and nitpicking that has pushed me away.
Debates and arguements can be enjoyable . . . but why does EVERYTHING need to be debated and argued? Is it so impossible to just have a conversation about something?
Look . . . I don't go into the "Classic Avengers" forum and berate and harshly criticism the books there. I could do it. I could go in there and talk about how terrible I think "Avengers" # 1 is and how overly-convulted a character like Kang is . . . but I don't. I don't like to nitpick. I don't like to shine that negative light. I'll critize, but I look for that postive side as well as negative. As terrible as "Avengers" # 1 may be, it's neat to see how this team was formed. As convulted as Kang can be, I loved the way that Busiek wrote him. I don't mean to sound arrogant, but I guess, for once, I'd like see someone at least not debate or not argue or maybe even NOT POST and let me or Doc or stagehand enjoy something.
Now I'm not going to go all drama lama here. I'm not leaving FOREVER. And neither is Doctor Doom, for what I understand. But I'm stepping back and diminishing my presence. I'll continue to work on the "Civil War Read Order" thread, but I'm so tired of the constant beratement and bashing and pure negativity. Just about everything I post (save for the "Read Order") has gotten blasted, so I'll probably stop posting any news items or interviews or what-have-you.
I guess I'll also stop posting my opinions, since they pretty much get blasted as well and drowned in the usual sea of Marvel bashing.
[sigh]
See ya around.
~W~
|
|
|
Post by Shiryu on Feb 27, 2007 17:46:59 GMT -5
Let's try not to get too carried and to stay on the interview, everyone It gives an interesting insight on what Millar had in mind when writing CW, and by agreeing or disagreeing with his opinions we basically show why liked or not liked CW. As for me, I also think that, in the final issue, he got Cap wrong-ish... the only partial explanation I can give if that, if the Anti Reg side would have won, the next step would have been difficult to decide. Beating Iron Man's side doesn't mean beat the government, especially when the latter is backed up by the public opinion... In the best case scenario, the Anti Reg would have had to take over the White House... in the worst, is Sentinels or something like that and the Avengers version of Days of Future Past. But I'm disgressing here As for the clash that developed, it's not my place to say who's right and who's wrong (I'm a moderator, not Odin after all ^^) but we should all try to keep our heads cool... after all, passionate a topic as it can be, it's a comic we are talking about. I for one hope W won't leave, and I think that similar hopes have been expressed by others here and there. I can figure it's tough being two vs all in certain topics, but someone has to do it, and your opinions are always interesting to read (then one can agree or disagree, but that's another matter).
|
|
Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
|
Post by Tone-Loc on Feb 27, 2007 17:48:53 GMT -5
W, I am relatively new here, but in the short few months that I have been around (the bulk of them lurking, hanging back, waiting to feel comfortable enough with the topics) I am willing to bet that not a single person you named, or anyone else from the opposite side of your viewpoint, wants you or anyone else to leave, or to be silent in your opinons.
No one has attacked you or Doom. Yet, every time people here criticize or excise their right of opinion on the people that you admire or have a high regard for... you take it personally, as if the criticism was directed at you.
The only thing you guys need to step back from, is so closely intertwining yourselves with those at Marvel that you admire.
Also, you say you seek converstaion about the things you are excited about. What you want is people to reaffirm your excitement, and to be as positive and happy about something as you are. That's not good "conversation." Conversation is an exchange of ideas and feelings. What good is it to echange something with someone, when all you wind up with at the end, is what you started out with. It's like those beavers eating lunch on a dam in Open Season....
- "Whaddya got for lunch?" - "Wood. What you got?" - "Wood." - "Wanna trade?"
You are more than free to provide your opinion on the old stuff... and guess what? ....you may find some people agree with you on the early issues. I find it tough to read the stuff from the 60's... heck even some of the early 70's. I don't find the art all the inspiring, but I appreciate it for what it is. The history, the backstory. The things that were the building blocks that made my favorite characters what they were. That disconnect and discarding of the past by the current folks in power at Marvel is probably the one main argument you will get out of the "old timers" here. I feel like there is nothing to appreciate in this new stuff, other than the fact the word "avengers" appears somewhere on the cover.
People have differing opinions on things. If you don't want to hear that, then you really don't want to post in public on a public forum. What you want is a private forum, or utilize the private message feature of a forum, in order to converse only with like-minded individuals.
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Feb 27, 2007 18:09:50 GMT -5
I'm logging in for two seconds- and yes, I will be lurking, though not doing such ourageous hings as "posting my opinion" and whatnot. I did want to add that what you see on the forum is not necessarily all that has taken place. Yes Tone-Loc, I have been insulted, and I have been informed, in fact, that I knew the comics I was reading were horrible but continued to read poor comics and was an apologist who was one of those responsible for utterly ruining comics today. In those words. So I consider that an insult. As TheW said, I have no intention of leaving "forever", but if I were to stay much longer for now I fear I would erupt.
I also have to detect some bitter irony in noting that my karma is higher now than it has EVER been while I was active. As far as I am aware, I have always been a good enough forummer, and I rather suspect my karma blasting has been due to my dissenting views. (Though to be fair, The W has a nice karma count and agrees with many of my views.)
I agree that mt storming out was rather dramatic, so I just wanted to reassure you that I will be back once I am sufficiently cooled down. The only reason I'm calm enough to make this post is that certain elements have not yet posted yet more negativity. Like The W, I've grown fond of you all and your little quirks, from Night Phantom's over-the-top and amusing style to DLW's never-failing patience and reason.
I agree it would be cowardly to storm off with an insulting post, which is why I am making this more level-headedo ne now, and hope to be able to speak sooner rather than later- but I do feel it is a very sorry day when those who express a minority view in a forum feel compelled to act like this and I wish more of you would think about maybe whether we have a point rather than dismissing it as us wanting everyoen to agree.
So for now, Doom Out.
|
|
|
Post by imperiusrex on Feb 27, 2007 18:17:56 GMT -5
Can I put my "ready to leave" statement up here as well? Seriously. I am sick to death of having to defend the freedom of speech. It's a freaking forum. As long as you follow the rules and abide by what the mods say or do, you are allowed to say it. period. I don't like the constant fawning over the ridiculous characters I see in current marvel titles and I provide lengthy examinations of why it isn't an "old folks versus new folks" but rather a clash over what people are looking for in current titles in terms of storytelling style. People can say whatever they want. politicians say they care for their constituents, but when they take bribes or soft money to influence their votes, their behavior doesn't match. Now that's an extreme example and I'm sure now I'll be crucified for daring to make a point using politicos and Millar-- "How dare you compare Mark Millar to a soft money congressman", but it's a valid comparison so I'm allowed to make it. Live with it. Or don't. But by God understand that I have the right to do it. I have disagreed with you guys a hundred times, but never told you to leave or change your opinion or how you present it. Even if I didn't like RSC, in his post, here, he did not say anything wrong. So is his past history going to be a factor? If that's the case, do I have to go back into the annals and find the post where Doom KNOWINGLY misrepresented the dialogue from an issue of mark waid's FF and then brushed it off? or find the numerous times he has taken one sentence out of a dozen and used it out of context to make his point? I let it slide because it's a freaking message board, but if we're going to start playing this game, let's do it all the way. because if we're going to call old posts into play and get righteous about them, can we start doing it with some equality? and people taking shots as they're leaving is also the cheapest way I see to make your point. How many times are you and doom going to call members "jerks" or whatever as you go? hmm? that is usually a no-no on most boards (personal attacks) yet it's one you all seem to be able to make without much concern. guess when it's your actions it doesn't really bother you all that much? well that's not hypocritical, huh? I have been a paid writer for almost twenty years and I tell people who want to write, but don't like the idea of being critiqued to "keep a journal." because if you put your words out there, they're out there. period. you can't control the response to them. and if we're going to have members crying foul because they can't embrace the idea that people are going to respond any way they see fit, and that we're going to have to modify our thoughts to fit their moods then I don't need to be a member either. because either you accept it or you don't but you don't get to jump on your high horse because you can't accept it. that, I won't be a party to. so if there's going to be some big paean to peace tolerance and love let's make sure it doesn't come before my right to disagree. because if it does, I'll be the first one out the d**n door.
|
|
|
Post by spiderwasp on Feb 27, 2007 20:37:32 GMT -5
Okay, I guess as a frequent poster, I have weigh in on the whole freedom of speech issue (Which has nothing to do with the topic of this post.) I too am getting tired of having to defend everything I say and spend so much time discussing whether or not it was something that was appropriate for me to say. I have expressed before that I think these boards would be very dull if we all thought the same way and just agreed each other. For that reason, I love having people around who oppose my views. Doc, you in particular have provided some great debates for those of us who are disillusioned with Marvel. I love to post my opinion and then check back in to see how you come back at me. The reason I say this is different than the way some other people respond is because you retaliate with evidence to support your beliefs. You may not convince me of your view, but I've had the feeling that you were okay with that. I'm okay with the fact that I don't change your mind as well. I just like to discuss the issues. When I have a problem, and have occasionally gone on my own tirade is when people make it personal. I may indeed make personal comments about Bendis or Joe Q. and if they wish to come on board and defend themselves, I welcome it. Otherwise, they are public figures and therefore subject to be talked about. Get over it. That doesn't mean I deserve to be told what a rotten person I am for talking about them. If we could all just respect each other rights to their opinions and then argue with each other at will, this could be so much fun. By the way, I'm not throwing all the blame for this on the other side. It has come from both. I've even been guilty myself, but honestly think I've only done that in retaliation of other personal attacks on myself or someone else I sided with. I'll try to do better. How 'bout we all say that?
|
|
|
Post by redstatecap on Feb 27, 2007 21:27:09 GMT -5
So you guys are allowed to say stuff like that about Bendis and Millar, but I'm not allowed to say that about you? Really fair . . . It seems to be lost on you that Bendis and Millar are the ones producing the product which we are debating.Not you, and not me. Frankly, I call into question Millar's objectivity -- after all, the entire interview is basically Millar evaluating Millar's work without question. You don't think he'd present only the case as he wants it to be seen? Put a little rosy spin on things, especially when a lot of people are not happy about the way things went? Nah, perish the thought! He has a motive to manage perceptions of CW (call it "spin" to be polite -- call it "lie" to be frank), therefore I don't accept what he said at face value. Or the Batman to your Robin? I am a Marvel fan for essentially two books -- Captain America, and the Avengers. Always have been, always will be. Currently, my little corner of the MU is being devastated, and I'm not happy with it -- at all. In fact, I'm downright pissed off. If my tastes were broader, I might find more positives with what Marvel is doing now. But I don't. I see absolutely nothing to be positive about Marvel right now, and I find that highly unfortunate. I got back into comics about two years ago after nearly a decade hiatus. Given what I've seen in the last two years, I wish I hadn't. That said, I strongly disagree with the idea that one has to be positive simply for the sake of staying on the bandwagon and being a good little fanboy. I evaluate titles based on quality. Period. If a title has quality, I say so. Ed Brubaker's Cap book has quality, and I'm happy to admit that in spite of the fact that I dropped the title over Bucky's resurrection. Conversely, Bendis' NA and Millar's CW are poorly written, unprofessional hack-jobs and I also have no problem with saying that bluntly either. See, I just don't believe that the fans should overlook concerns of quality in order to "get excited" about a title. Ultimately it's a disservice to the comic industry and the fans, because poor work is supported financially by fans who just have to be up on something. If Marvel wants me to get excited about something, they can start with putting out a quality product. I believe that the inverse is true of yourself. You feel the need to overlook concerns of poor quality because of your apparent need to be onboard the bandwagon. Oh, yeah -- how about old Bill Foster and the New Warriors? Millar says that he loves old Marvel. That's his contention. Reading Civil War I see exactly ZERO evidence to support that contention. This is called "criticism." It happens in the real world when someone is paid to put out a product, and customers are dissatisfied with that product. Actually there is every reason for Millar to spin/lie in the interview. He is placed in the position of defending his personal work and his reputation against fans levelling serious criticism against it. His questioner, as usual, threw him a few soft-pitch questions and declined to bore in for tough answers. Why? Because Newsarama et. al. has almost as much interest in seeing these sort of events succeed as the comic companies themselves. They don't want to bite the hand that feeds them, so to speak. "Where are my points to defend my claims?" Where have you been throughout the CW debate? Have you even bothered reading any of the threads highly critical of Millar's story? By many, many other posters besides myself? Your call. I for one am equally annoyed by posters that I perceive as unobjective, slavish fanboys. OK...so long as it's a conversation only on your terms, I guess. Look, W, this is a public forum. People are here to debate, to discuss, and yes, even to argue.This forum does not exist to play yes-man and rubber-stamp your personal opinions. I honestly cannot fathom how you fail to understand that. Can't you also see how incredibly boring such a place would be? Tell you what -- when you want to post about something you are positive about, do the following: In the header, after the post title, post "...for Pro-Bendis Views Only." Or "...for Pro-CW Views Only." That way, you will (most likely) only hear the comfortable, soothing statements of agreement that you seem to want. By all means, come over and criticize the "classic" Avengers. That doesn't bother me in the least and I'd be happy to have a civil debate on the subject. Thing is, I am perfectly capable (as are all the other knowledgeable fans here) of defending my point of view with facts and examples. I've read pretty much all your posts, and I'd like to offer some constructive criticism which might at first sound offensive, but is truly not intended to be. To start off, there is no arguing taste. You can make the statement "I like New Avengers and CW," and there simply is no arguing with that. That's perfectly legitimate, and though I disagree that there is any good reason to like CW or NA, I accept taste for what it is. However, there is arguing about facts, about historical precedent, about the technical qualities of writing, etc. That's where I believe you go wrong as a fan. I have seen you make statements like "Cap/IM/Reed's characterization in CW is right in line with the previous 40 years." I do not believe that that is a supportable statement, and this is no longer simply an issue of "taste." I believe that those sorts of statements by you (and I have seen many) are unsupportable and indicate either lack of knowledge, or the need to be on Marvel's bandwagon, or both. I've also seen you, in defending New Avengers and Civil War, call on people to give concrete reasons, and when they do so, you either disregard it entirely or essentially call them "haters." Or jerks. That's annoying. I have absolutely no problem having a debate with someone who can bring concrete facts and reasoning to support their point of view, but you haven't done that, and you cry foul and threaten to take your toys and go home when people bring criticisms you are not prepared to answer. Your call. But, if you stick around you will in a short time have the pleasure of criticizing me. Regards, RSC
|
|
|
Post by dlw66 on Feb 27, 2007 21:32:13 GMT -5
Look . . . I don't go into the "Classic Avengers" forum and berate and harshly criticism the books there. I could do it. I could go in there and talk about how terrible I think "Avengers" # 1 is and how overly-convulted a character like Kang is . . . but I don't. I don't like to nitpick. I don't like to shine that negative light. I'll critize, but I look for that postive side as well as negative. As terrible as "Avengers" # 1 may be, it's neat to see how this team was formed. As convulted as Kang can be, I loved the way that Busiek wrote him. I don't mean to sound arrogant, but I guess, for once, I'd like see someone at least not debate or not argue or maybe even NOT POST and let me or Doc or stagehand enjoy something. See ya around. ~W~ W, I would LOVE it if you and Doom would go into the Classic Avengers section and give your two cents, because then we would be called to defend what we love in the same light that you are called to defend what you love. If you've looked around, particularly at the Silver Age Artists thread in the General section, you'll see that we've taken Don Heck to task numerous times, and Stan the Man himself has not been spared of criticisms for his over-the-top dialogue, dangling plotlines, etc. Somewhere, I can't remember where, we discussed the segue from Stan to Roy on the FF and what a downturn the book seemed to take. With all of the trades, the Essentials, and the DVD-ROMs available now, these are conversations that are accessible to ANYONE!! You didn't have to be there originally. Shoot -- I chime in on stuff I haven't read, based off what others say they liked/didn't like. I don't try to fool anyone by trying to pull off that I read something when I didn't, but I still feel like I can be a part of the fun. So come on and give some Classic love (or hate). If nothing else, it will make me go re-read old stuff so I can have some capable defenses. Who said the other day that the Celestial Madonna left them flat? Anyway, I've been meaning to get the tpb off the shelf and re-read it. It's on my to-do list because someone criticized a story that I hold very high in Avengerdom. That is what you can do for me...
|
|
|
Post by thew40 on Feb 27, 2007 22:15:17 GMT -5
I think my point is being missed. It's not that people aren't allowed to express their opinions, I'm just tired of seeing each and every thread turned into a Marvel bash-a-thon. I feel like I can't say ANYTHING without five people coming in and going on and on and on about how much they hate Marvel right now. That's what pisses me off. It's just the negavity. Look at the threads, yourself. Every thread in the "New Avengers," "Mighty Avengers," and "Civil War" forums has at least three people gripping uncontrollably about how much they hate Marvel right now. I KNOW YOU HATE MARVEL RIGHT NOW. I UNDERSTAND. I READ 5 BILLION TIMES! WHY DO YOU HAVE TO POST IN EVERY THREAD ABOUT IT? WHY CAN'T YOU LET THE PEOPLE WHO LIKE IT RIGHT NOW JUST TALK ABOUT IT NORMALLY WITHOUT INTERUPTING US WITH YOUR USUAL BRAND OF NEGAVITIY AND CYNISM? I AM SICK AND TIRED OF HAVING TO ARGUE AND DEBATE THINGS TO DEATH! See, I had to type in Caps to get my point across. Now, I wouldn't apply this everyone, but that's for everyone who isn't quite getting what I'm saying. I'm just tired of not being able to have a discussion without the thread being lead into a Bendis/Millar/Marvel/Quesada bashing thread. And RSC . . . You hate the current writers and current direction "Avengers" and "Captain America?" What a shock! Please, tell again! I didn't catch that the first 57 times! Why, I bet that means if I'm liking it, I'm some sort of moron who doesn't appreciate the classics. That's what you seem to imply in each of your posts. I guess I'm just a sheep. Baah! dlw66 . . . The reason I don't come to the Classic Avengers forum as much as I'd like is simply because I don't have much in the way of classic Avengers stories. I have some of the Essentials trades, the "Celestials Madonna" trade (which is rather epic), and "The Kree/Skrull War" trade. When I'm finished with the so-called "Uncanny X-Periment" (the link of which is posted elsewhere), I plan on diving into some classic Avengers tales. I can figure it's tough being two vs all in certain topics, but someone has to do it, and your opinions are always interesting to read (then one can agree or disagree, but that's another matter). Shiryu, buddy, I'm just tired of it being two vs. all. I'm not leaving. Just "diminishing my presence." I'll be around, but I'm done with giving my opinions and posting links. I'll up-date the "Read Order" and post here and there, but I'm just so tired of being brought down. ~W~
|
|