BigDuke
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 136
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Post by BigDuke on Nov 15, 2006 13:29:51 GMT -5
Just read my copy of CW 5 and I am confused.
spoiler alert
Spider man says he doesn't mind working for SHIELD but he quits the Avengers and doesn't want to be part of hunting down other heroes. Now why would SHIELD want to take him down for that? It made no sense at all.
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Post by thew40 on Nov 15, 2006 15:40:15 GMT -5
It's not just that he wants to stand down from the Avengers and SHIELD. But it's that he's now openly disagreeing with the Registration Act and attacked Iron Man in Amazing Spider-Man # 535, which ends mere seconds before before Civil War # 5 begins.
The last thing Iron Man and SHIELD want is Spider-Man (or anyone) heading over to the other side. You'll also note that Tony still wants to try and talk him out of it and it's SHIELD that busts in and makes a big fuss, then oversteps him.
And as long as we're discussing Civil War # 5, I found this issue to be quite disappointing. I thought Spider-Man's confrontation with Iron Man was cool, but not as good as it could have been. I wanted an all out fight!
And granted, it bugged me (no pun intended) that Peter got taken down so easily by two B-level villains. The Punisher showing up was cool, though. I'll give Marvel credit for that.
It also bothered me at how we didn't see Iron Fist/Daredevil get taken down. What was up with that? That deserved better.
Overall, this issue was a disappointment. Had it been out on time, maybe I'd feel different about it, but right now, yeah, disappointed.
~W~
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Post by Doctor Doom on Nov 16, 2006 14:45:40 GMT -5
Interesting. The solicits completely SPOILED that Punisher would be in it, most characters on the cover don't even appear in-magazine and the ending was meh
But despite that I asctually loved the issue. Very well written and presented overall. Good comic, but didn't live up to the hype.
Oh yeah, and a RIDICULOUS amount of adds.
8/10
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Post by Yellowjacket on Nov 19, 2006 9:33:33 GMT -5
I enjoyed the issue very much, too. Mainly, because Frank is back (I love that guy) and the way he made his appearance was just cool as ever (maybe that´s why Spidey had no chance against Jester and Jack O´Lantern, to give Frank his appearance).
I consciously avoided all spoilers, to have most surprise (fun) when reading, so I didn´t know about the Punisher´s appearance in CW #5 (though the postponing of War Journal had to have a reason).
Honestly, I don´t see a long fight possible between IM/SM because once IM hits him (and in a long fight he will hit him) Spidey would be down or even dead. So, this part was fine for me too and I like it how Tony looses his "trusted associates" more and more. (Maybe) Sooner or later IM won´t hold his nerves.
What do you say about bringing "DD" into 42? Of course it´s not Matt, but I don´t think it´s Danny neither (imho).
I´d bet it´s Frank (that´s what Cap was thinking of "doing" with Frank) and that would be the reason why there was no taking down of DD shown. Otherwise he wouldn´t have been put in masked -- I even think this is a bit lame, but storywise it seems necessary.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Nov 19, 2006 11:52:31 GMT -5
Even though I hate this event/crossover with every fiber of my being (to be honest) I can't help myself from especulating a bit about it, storyline-wise...
Wouldn't it be cool if (in order to make the Anti camp somewhat less "all-good", since many of you find the representation of both camps in the story umbalanced...) Cap's side was shown doing some questionable choices out of desperation...?
For example, how about Cap taking a page from Wanda's book (during Disassembled) and exploiting IM's weaknessses, somehow inducing & luring him into drinking again...?
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Post by The Night Phantom on Nov 19, 2006 14:23:10 GMT -5
For example, how about Cap taking a page from Wanda's book (during Disassembled) and exploiting IM's weaknessses, somehow inducing & luring him into drinking again...? It’s hard for me to imagine Cap doing such a thing, even in tremendous desperation. But I could more easily see a Cap ally with generally good ethics still sinking to such a ploy, perhaps a Spidey or a Human Torch. Certainly the resulting guilt feelings could make good drama for such a character. Cap’s so straight and narrow that if he implemented, ordered, or approved of such a plan, he would arguably not be Captain America anymore. But you could get much hand-wringing out of him if one or more of his people did follow such a plan even with no foreknowledge on Cap’s part—Steve really would take on some measure of personal responsibility regardless. Of course, my speculation is based on my perception of Cap as traditionally portrayed, not as Millar or Bendis might write him. I have no special expectations of their product. |
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Post by Doctor Doom on Nov 19, 2006 15:47:01 GMT -5
I'd say when you recruit the PUNISHER and decide to help use him against other heroes, that qualifies as doing desperate things. Let's face it, Frank has to have a 5 figure death toll by now.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Nov 19, 2006 23:39:21 GMT -5
Well, yeah, Night Phantom, that was my general line of thinking: I've seen so many people lately behaving in ways which I don't recognize (always, of course, IMO) that this could be -considered by the creative team- a legitimate plot development...
It would be significant not only as an ethical conflict within Cap, but also because when Tony lost his company & money to alcohol, Cap went out of his way to try to help him, until he realized that only Tony could help Tony to win that particular battle.
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Post by Shiryu on Nov 20, 2006 3:47:44 GMT -5
It was a rather quite issue for me, nothing eventful happening except for Spidey leaving IM, which was coming straight from ASM (wonder if a longer fight will appear there).
I didn't like the way Peter was defeated by those 2 B villains, his spider sense should have helped him to avoid the toy bomb and he easily defeated Will o the Wisp a couple of issues ago in Friendly NSM.
I would have also liked to see Sue and the Torch actually joining Cap's group instead of already being a part of it... may be it will happen in the FF issues ?
The Punisher joining looked like Wolverine joining the NA, I hope he won't be the one shifting the edge on Cap's group (and I really hope Spidey won't play dead for the rest of CW).
Question: is CW 6 coming out in January or will it go back to monthly now ??
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Post by Doctor Doom on Nov 20, 2006 11:58:29 GMT -5
It was a rather quite issue for me, nothing eventful happening except for Spidey leaving IM, which was coming straight from ASM (wonder if a longer fight will appear there). I didn't like the way Peter was defeated by those 2 B villains, his spider sense should have helped him to avoid the toy bomb and he easily defeated Will o the Wisp a couple of issues ago in Friendly NSM. To be fair, I doubt his spidey sense has EVER been screaming non-stop as much as it has now. He's unmasked, his family are away from him, he has ZERO allies, his old friends are hunting him, he has become a number one target hunted by huge enemy forces, etc, etc.... and at the point of fighting Jack and Jester, he had been shot a couple' times and fled through the sewers. Not with JMS' "Fantastic Ben" book. Torchie doesn't even appear in 541. We'll have a much better chance once McDuffie takes over. December. Whether CW7 is out for January we shall see, but CW6 will be on schedule. |
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Post by Yellowjacket on Nov 22, 2006 5:02:22 GMT -5
To be fair, I doubt his spidey sense has EVER been screaming non-stop as much as it has now. He's unmasked, his family are away from him, he has ZERO allies, his old friends are hunting him, he has become a number one target hunted by huge enemy forces, etc, etc.... Hmm, I really thought things like these happen to him all the time. At least, that´s what I bear in remembrance.  |
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Post by spiderwasp on Nov 25, 2006 11:47:05 GMT -5
I just got around to reading the issue and I agree with a lot of what I've seen posted. It wasn't a terrible issue but it was dissappointing because nothing new really happened. The big thing that was promoted was that this issue would have people switching sides, which it did, but we saw Johnny, Sue, Stature, and Nighthawk do it last issue and Spider-man in his own book (Which might have been new had the book been on time). One thing that annoys me is that we see the same part of the story told in different ways (Example - Sue leaving the FF) but we fast forward over things, such as her and Johnny finding Cap. I'd rather see everything than see some things repeatedly (I mean how many times did we see Spidey unmask?)
Also, I wonder how Johnny and Sue found Cap. Ironman and company have been looking for a while, and just now Tigra has managed. But as soon as Johnny and Sue decided to change sides, they seemed to know where to go. And why isn't Ironman grilling Nighthawk and Stature. They may have switched sides but they were a Cap's hideout. If they aren't telling where it is, they are aiding and abetting.
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Post by Shiryu on Nov 25, 2006 16:35:55 GMT -5
On the last point, I think that in issue 4, when Nighthawk and Stature left, Cap said something like "we'll change hideout again".
BTW, has anyone read ASM 536 ? it shows things before and after CW5 with another public speech by Spidey.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Nov 26, 2006 15:06:20 GMT -5
I'd assume Cap is actively recruiting- remember he has Nick Fury, which is a massive advantage- plus the x-men have ways of getting in touch with him. So yeah, I'd say if Cap hears they're out there, he'll come to them.
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Post by balok on Nov 30, 2006 15:54:12 GMT -5
I'd say when you recruit the PUNISHER and decide to help use him against other heroes, that qualifies as doing desperate things. Let's face it, Frank has to have a 5 figure death toll by now. What would you say about Iron Man's use of known thieves, multiple murders, and psychopaths, that he controls with nanobots and electric shocks? Would you call that the actions of a hero? Because I'd call it the actions of a villain. What IS the difference between Iron Man and Doctor Doom these days? Besides the color of the armor, I mean? |
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Post by Doctor Doom on Nov 30, 2006 16:17:01 GMT -5
I'd say when you recruit the PUNISHER and decide to help use him against other heroes, that qualifies as doing desperate things. Let's face it, Frank has to have a 5 figure death toll by now. What would you say about Iron Man's use of known thieves, multiple murders, and psychopaths, that he controls with nanobots and electric shocks? Would you call that the actions of a hero? Because I'd call it the actions of a villain. I'd call it as much the actions of a hero as what Cap is doing. All the Thunderbolts TOGETHER would be extremely lucky to break into a four figure death toll, and it doesn't MATTER that he kills thieves, drug dealers and scum- Frank is in five figures, at the very least. Now using someone who has killed TENS of thousands, using him with no way of regulating him against other heroes- THAT is the actions of a villain. |
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Post by redstatecap on Nov 30, 2006 19:48:47 GMT -5
I don't necessarily disagree with you.
But all this means is that they are making Cap look as bad as they've made Tony and Reed look.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
This whole thing keeps getting worse and worse.
RSC
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Post by balok on Dec 1, 2006 16:52:08 GMT -5
I'd call it as much the actions of a hero as what Cap is doing. All the Thunderbolts TOGETHER would be extremely lucky to break into a four figure death toll, and it doesn't MATTER that he kills thieves, drug dealers and scum- Frank is in five figures, at the very least. Now using someone who has killed TENS of thousands, using him with no way of regulating him against other heroes- THAT is the actions of a villain. Well, I'm not sure Frank has a five figure death toll, although its certainly in four figures. And Frank has killed twice on behalf of the anti-reg forces (although before joining and doubtless without Cap's approval). So far the pro-reg forces have murdered once. In both cases, that we know of. The interesting trend is that more heroes are deserting Tony than are joining him, and he is replacing them with enslaved villains. I believe Tony has lost sight of his destination in the details of the journey. There is, for example, little likelihood that the government would ban all costumes as Tony fears. Why? Because if they did, the villians would have a field day. And the Cape Killers would in many cases learn just how badly outclassed they are by their opponents. The Green Goblin, for example, could dispatch a squad of such agents without breaking a sweat. If he planned for the encounter, he could dispatch an entire platoon with little difficulty. Now, how easy is it gonna be to recruit for the 'Killers? Inside of a month America would be begging the governent to repeal the ban. |
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Post by Doctor Bong on Dec 2, 2006 2:45:05 GMT -5
But what if, by then, there wouldn't be an American government, as we know it...?
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Post by uberwolf on Dec 2, 2006 10:20:23 GMT -5
With all the tech villains out there, someone will find a way to either deactivate the control chips or take them over themselves. Then Tony's going to have an army of hacked off villians to deal with. He, of all people, should know this.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Dec 2, 2006 12:57:18 GMT -5
Yes, but that would require for him to be actually capable of remembering his past & learn from it, something which seems beyond this current incarnation of IM's ability to do, and hence one of the main reasons why some of us level the charge of mischaracterization...
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Post by Doctor Doom on Dec 2, 2006 18:03:38 GMT -5
....While dozens of others disagree.
I'm sorry, I've just posted some long, reasonable and almost certainly about-to-be-ignored arguments on CBR, I really CAN'T argue right now. I'll defend Iron Man and Marvel in general on the morrow.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Dec 9, 2006 19:10:51 GMT -5
What IS the difference between Iron Man and Doctor Doom these days? Besides the color of the armor, I mean? Kinda puts Marvel Team-Up (recent series) #3–6 & 21–24 into perspective… |
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