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Post by The Night Phantom on Dec 9, 2006 12:51:37 GMT -5
That's irrelevant. He wasn't answering anything, just stating it. How interesting, that you think he’s “psychologically incapable of giving a straight answer” yet is trustworthy spouting off on his own. You’re welcome to believe that, but don’t expect other people to buy into this dichotomy so readily. Probably Quesada doesn’t, if his discussion of his own dishonesty regarding Speedball is any indication. By the way, an important (or maybe not so important) point may have gotten lost: We’ve already established that the Tom Brevoort claims about Civil War that you manage to dig up are inconsistent with what actually gets published in Civil War and its tie-ins. So you're claiming a claim made by Tom Brevoort and Joe Q is wrong? Leaving aside the insertion of Joe Quesada, the answer would still be no. I did not say the claim was wrong. What I did mean to convey is that the appeal to authority that you invoked is unreliable because appeals to the same authority have already been shown to be unreliable. The claim you reported very well may be true; but given the existing problems with the source, I felt it was worthwhile to point out that its support for your contention was not as strong as you seemed to want it to be. If he, Brevoort, and Keith (no R) Giffen (I wonder who will be making claims next!) are saying that there is absolutely no connection between Annihilation and Civil War, then strictly speaking they actually are stating an untruth, regardless of their reasons. I don’t know if there are major connections (I’ve read exactly one of the Annihilation comics, I’ve read probably less than half of the Civil War comics, I don’t pretend to know what’s happening in as-yet unreleased issues, and what constitutes a “major” connection depends on the yardstick you use), but clearly there are some connections: they’re both Marvel Universe events, and they both use the Negative Zone as a major plot device, for starters. Oh that's ridiculous- you're playing with semantics and you know it. I'm going by memory here, but they all said something TO THE TUNE OF there being no big connection between Civil War and Annihilation. No, if you are positing that some (even non-“big”) instance of something qualifies as absolutely no instance of that same thing, then it is you who are playing with semantics—or perhaps just plumb breaking it. Do not shift blame onto me for your misstatements. That is ridiculous. One would assume Marvel wouldn’t publish ASM #536 before Civil War #6 for the same reason…! Whyso? If released before CW5, it gives away Spidey DOES end up fighting iron man, ditching his costume, escaping to the sewers, surviving the next few attacks, and that his family are all intact. When released before CW6.... it gives away that Spidey survives. Which we knew. There was widepsread belief among Spider-fans that CW5 would have Aunt May or MJ breathe their last. Two footnotes in ASM #536 reveal that part of its story takes place after CW #6; and it therefore reveals, at least partially, the status of Spidey and some of his supporting cast after Civil War #6, thereby revealing by implication some of what does or doesn’t end up happening in that issue of an already topsy-turvy series. The point is, Marvel sometimes publishes things out of ideal reading order, and the possibility of that occurring increases when Marvel stays with a schedule as well as the Wasp stays with a costume. And furthermore, your assumption that Nova would have to “mention that he just saved the entire galaxy from impending doom” if he were to appear in The Return is not a given. He might be busy, he might be amnesiac, he might be attempting modesty, he might have laryngitis, etc. I’m not bullish on Nova’s being featured in The Return. It’s not my theory, and I don’t subscribe to it, though I don’t count it out either. I still favor the notion that the mystery star is either a Captain Marvel person (hmm…Quasar sort-of counts, but…nahh) or the real Thor. We’ll just have to wait and see… Well then I guess this entire debate is fruitless. Why is that? If one’s view of this forum is that it is an arena where unwavering adherents to some belief must seek to figuratively beat adherents to some opposing belief into submission, then I suppose examination of a theory that has not yet been espoused by any forum member might seem pointless. By contrast, I view this forum as a venue for an exchange of ideas. One of the values of this exchange is that one can build or revise one’s opinions using ideas proffered by other members. The dissent you have expressed is of course a legitimate form of exchange. However, I feel that the premises you have been offering as justification are not even close to being ironclad. I am not seeking to convince you or anyone else that the Nova theory is correct; but I am concerned that if the reasons you keep giving are incorrectly taken as proof positive against it, then the effect could be to unduly close minds against the theory. And that would be contrary to the principle of the exchange of ideas.
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Post by balok on Dec 10, 2006 1:32:00 GMT -5
Entirely a non-sequitur, but at the end of The Night Phantom's link is a statement that leads one to believe Quesada regards Bendis and Gaiman as similar creators. I must assume that he refers to sales to retain my tenuous grip on reason. If he's talking about talent then be afraid... be very afraid. Bendis can't carry Gaiman's jock in the talent competition.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Dec 10, 2006 3:35:55 GMT -5
Bendis (& possibly Doctor Doom too...) would beg to differ...
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Post by The Night Phantom on Dec 10, 2006 7:39:54 GMT -5
Entirely a non-sequitur, but at the end of The Night Phantom's link is a statement that leads one to believe Quesada regards Bendis and Gaiman as similar creators. I must assume that he refers to sales to retain my tenuous grip on reason. If he's talking about talent then be afraid... be very afraid. Bendis can't carry Gaiman's jock in the talent competition. For those not willing to comb through my post and then comb through the pages it links to, here’s the statement Balok was referring to:Remember: the guy had just talked about his tendency to dissemble… Bendis (& possibly Doctor Doom too...) would beg to differ... Let’s be careful about putting words in the mouth of our fellow Assembler; he’s been known to criticize Bendis’ work…
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Post by Doctor Bong on Dec 10, 2006 12:58:55 GMT -5
Agreed! But I wasn't being serious...
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Post by The Night Phantom on Dec 10, 2006 13:41:57 GMT -5
Ah, Ua2…I must confess I was a little surprised to see the Doctor call a debate “fruitless”, considering certain things he’s said before…. Is he getting mellow? Perhaps he’s left Latveria for a relaxing tropical clime on a little winter break…
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Post by thew40 on Dec 10, 2006 13:47:32 GMT -5
Bendis can't carry Gaiman's jock in the talent competition. He can with "Ultimate Spider-Man" and "Powers." Sometimes I think you guys need to chill out. Sometimes I feel like just because you don't like what he's done with "New Avengers" means that everything he's ever done is terrible. Plus, Gaiman and Bendis have very, very different styles in terms of storytelling. ~W~
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Post by balok on Dec 10, 2006 21:35:40 GMT -5
He can with "Ultimate Spider-Man" and "Powers." I am sadly not familiar with the quality of these books. The only other Bendis authored piece I have read is Alias (Jessica Jones as a detective). I do agree that Alias is far better than New Avengers, although I am not sure I'd agree it's as good as Gaiman. Sometimes I think you guys need to chill out. Sometimes I feel like just because you don't like what he's done with "New Avengers" means that everything he's ever done is terrible. Plus, Gaiman and Bendis have very, very different styles in terms of storytelling. ~W~ I probably overreact. My problem is that I remember when Avengers was a much better book (and one does not have to look all that far back) and I also remember when it was pretty bad (Heroes Reborn) and I was sure it could never get worse - and now it has. On top of that I cannot understand why Bendis! sells so well. For the first time ever, I face the possibility that comics may have left me behinds, that what most buyers want now is Bendis! and that isn't what I like in a comic book at all. As long as sales are strong they will continue to employ Bendis, order other writers to emulate him and seek other writers who write like him. The hobby I have loved for decades will move in a direction I don't like, forcing me to abandon it. I haven't felt this grim about the creative future of the industry, at least at Marvel, since Heroes Reborn. And there was a quick light at the end of that tunnel, as it became painfully evident that Marvel had made a terrible mistake, and had to correct it. Liefeld is mostly gone now, which is a good thing. But I wonder if Bendis and his influence will disappear as quickly. Somehow I doubt it. SOMEONE is buying this stuff.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Jan 18, 2007 19:32:24 GMT -5
Over on Newsarama today, Paul Jenkins (writer) teases us about The Return. The article mentions that the one-shot is due next week, but yesterday my pusher—er, the guy who orders my comics said that it had been pushed back one week, i.e., to Jan. 31.
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Post by Tana Nile on Jan 24, 2007 16:09:40 GMT -5
I just read The Return.
Now I know I said in another thread I was going to try to be more positive, but I have to say it: my god, what a piece of crap.
SPOILER
Yes, Mar-Vell is back. Apparently we will be getting a Captain Marvel #1 soon. How needless, how pointless, and why tarnish the memory of possibly the best super-hero death ever? This thing makes little sense. Mar-vell is the warden of 42? What? He was somehow transported through time, and all his buddies can tell him is they need him to be the warden of their super-gulag?
This whole thing just reeks of money-grubbing. Look, I know Marvel is a business. They are all about making money. But I guess I would hope for some smidgen of artistic integrity somewhere.
And on top of that, it's only a few pages in the book. After the senseless return of Mar-Vell, we get a Sentry story. Whoopde do.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Jan 24, 2007 20:01:16 GMT -5
Is it too much to hope for that he ends up being another robo-clone...?
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Post by Van Plexico on Jan 24, 2007 20:31:59 GMT -5
I haven't been to the shop yet to buy it, but I was curious enough to read here and see who "returns."
SPOILER
SPACE
*sigh*
Really?
Hmm. On the one hand, I sort of like that... after all, the last year or so has seen the returns of Ms. Marvel and Moon Knight, my #3 and #4 favorite characters of all time-- and to their own books, no less. So having #2 back from the dead sort of makes up for having #1 become "the Avengers Villain of the Year," I suppose...
Not to mention, they've brought back Bucky, so why not Mar-Vell? Who's next? Uncle Ben?
But on the other hand, I really think in this case they should have let the dead rest in peace. Mar-Vell was a wonderful character, and I loved the stories Jim Starlin and Doug Moench wrote for him. But he had his big exit scene-- heck, graphic novel-- and that should have been that.
And when you add THAT to the mix, I simply want to scream and run and hide. No way. That's disgusting. Bring him back from the dead AND poop on his memory by making him that?
All I can guess is that he will pull a Spidey and switch sides at a key moment and let all the heroes escape. Wait and see if that doesn't happen.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Jan 24, 2007 21:42:01 GMT -5
The article mentions that the one-shot is due next week, but yesterday my pusher—er, the guy who orders my comics said that it had been pushed back one week, i.e., to Jan. 31. Well, the fellow was wrong. As for the big return…I’m flabbergasted by how underwhelming it turned out to be. Not because of the who so much as the how. It’s about as underwhelming as that difficult-to-view cover art. In this case, folks, you can judge a book by its cover.
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jkemble
Reservist Avenger
the Cosmic Frog
Posts: 243
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Post by jkemble on Jan 25, 2007 0:01:41 GMT -5
yeah, i have to agree: crap. I couldn't even read it all.
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Post by dlw66 on Jan 25, 2007 11:22:36 GMT -5
I was hoping that when it was said that the story then moved to a focus on the Sentry, that what was really meant (given that we're now discussing Mar-Vell) was Sentry-451. Guess not... In a related marketing ploy, Mar-Vell was in the last series of Marvel Legends that Toy Biz put out. I wonder how he's doing on the secondary market, ie Ebay, today...
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jkemble
Reservist Avenger
the Cosmic Frog
Posts: 243
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Post by jkemble on Jan 25, 2007 12:27:00 GMT -5
well, it seems that Marvel and Joe Q are really big on retro-fitting continuety. seems like the flavor of the day. pretty soon all the old timers like me will be alienated and confused with the "new" Marvel history. I'm not feeling to worried about it in the long run though, most lot of the sensationalism stuff that Marvel is churning out today will end up in the 25¢ bin in about ten years and forgotten shortly after that. Think: the Crossing era. that's what this all reminds me of. I remember it was shocking also... "Wasp is a insectoid, because of Pym?" "Iron Man is killing everybody... no, he's just a kid?" "Hawkeye and Black Widow, in the future?" they tried to play that with sensationalism too, and it went on to become Marvel's worst Avenger epic ever. I think they even killed a charecter or two, (Swordsman, I think...), canceled a few books, launched or re-launched a few books, but it was still such a debacle that they had to do Heroes Reborn, and we all know how that went! anyway, I'm done with Avengers books. f---- 'em! oh, yeah, it is the cheapening of Captain Marvel's death that launched me on this rant. I suppose that this is going to nullify the whole Annihilation Saga (where sweeping changes have happened to the at-war newly ursurped Kree Empire)
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jan 25, 2007 13:33:02 GMT -5
My two cents. I'm not a fan of this issue. It wasn't well written, I don't like Jenkins. But as for the return? Sure. To say this ruins the Death of Captain Marvel is to insult an epic. To say this ruins that story is to say that THAT story isn't a good enough story to survive beyond the shock of Cap. Marvel's death. NO death story is tarnished because of the return of a character in my opinion- to say it does so is the real insult to the original. So was this return handled well? Not very, in my opinion. But I'll wait until I pick up "Captain Marvel #1" before I throw a tantrum or swear off marvel forever... And I'd appreciate it if people STOPPED tarnishing one of my favourite old marvel stories by claiming it's so weak, so pathetic a story it can't be good anymore if Cap. Marvel returns.
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Post by Black Knight on Jan 25, 2007 16:02:04 GMT -5
I think what he is saying is that Marvel is spitting in one of the best books ever and the best death scene ever. Instead of having him remain dead, they bring him back. It feels like Joe Q is saying "ha ha look at what I just did" and you old time fans, can't stop me.
Is the book a classic, yes, does it mean anything now. Quiet simple no. CM is alive again and his death and the great comic that went with it is meanless in the current MU. Does that cheapen the classic comic. NO... Does it so the contempt that the current Marvel has for it. YES...
DC has the right idea, there are some charaters who sacrfice should not be nullified by their return.
In DC it is Barry Allen the Flash, and although he has returned for an issue or two, he can never stay, and is not rewarded his own book.
I guess, this shows that Marvel will do anything for the fast buck.
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jkemble
Reservist Avenger
the Cosmic Frog
Posts: 243
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Post by jkemble on Jan 25, 2007 16:19:55 GMT -5
okay, I get it. The Death Of Captain Marvel will forever be quoted as perhaps on of Marvels best, heartfelt stories ever. that a young man at the prime of his life (unfortunately, not sales...) dies a common death in a way that we all could die, and most of us had experienced with the death of a loved one. it was a touching, relatable story. a true, well thought out masterpiece. but then, Joe Q, like a mad god, goes crazy, and for $ome rea$on, decides to reserect the hero, and slops together a retro-fit one-shot and then just to make sure it sells and catches everybody's attention, attatch it to the whole high profile Civil War event. but really, it's just a cliff hanger used to sell more copies of Catain Marvel #1, a Civil War spin-off coming out later this year. Anyway, what did Joe Q mean when he said that Captain Marvel was already in the Marvel Universe last summer? so, I am one of those fools who got bored last summer and dropped a big chunk of change on Annihilation, where the whole Marvel Cosmic landscape has been redefined. let's see, on the Kree side: the Kree Empire is, or was, at full out war with Annihilis and his horde, Ronin shut down (again?) the Supreme Intelegence, this time allied with the Skrulls, and usurped the thrown becoming the Emporer of the Kree Empire. I'm a little worried about how much of this (if any) Captain Marvel is going to address, and wouldn't this have been a better place to bring him back? (Although I'm sure Marvel had their rea$on$.)
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jkemble
Reservist Avenger
the Cosmic Frog
Posts: 243
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Post by jkemble on Jan 25, 2007 16:25:13 GMT -5
to sum it up in two words: sell-out.
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Post by redstatecap on Jan 25, 2007 18:29:55 GMT -5
to sum it up in two words: sell-out. And you're surprised? I was out of comics from the very early 90s until a couple of years ago. Marvel's actions of the last year have made me wish I had not picked up a comic again. RSC
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Post by Doctor Bong on Jan 25, 2007 19:09:59 GMT -5
I think most of us feel the old Marvel dictum that some people should stay dead had a reason for being, and that the sudden urge the current Marvel administration seems to feel for bringing everybody & their brother smacks of crass comercialism & little else... I mean, really, whose left...? Uncle Ben, the real Gwen Stacy & the original Kraven the Hunter...? And can they be far behind...?
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Post by Doctor Bong on Jan 25, 2007 19:12:11 GMT -5
I guess Joe Q would quip: "Dead is dead... until the Allmighty Dollar speaks...!!!"
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Post by thew40 on Jan 25, 2007 20:17:22 GMT -5
I'll be heading out of town next week and wasn't able to pick up my books this week since my money is being turned towards this trip to my future in-laws.
Anyways, I'll be picking up the issue up when I get back. However, I should point that I'm not exactly won-over by a lot of the reactions here. It's really Mar-Vell? Really? Lordy. I don't disagree with Joe Q that much, but I definetly disagree with the comments he had been making about Captain Marvel. The death of Captain Marvel (though I've never read) was one that was rahter significant.
The idea of Captain Marvel as a warden is a neat idea, I think, if Captain Marvel had returned about 5 years ago.
~W~
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Post by dlw66 on Jan 25, 2007 21:56:36 GMT -5
As far as character deaths go, I think we all knew the whole Superman thing was not permanent from the get-go. And truthfully, I think the way it was handled was OK, and bringing Steel and Superboy into the DCU was a good thing.
In terms of Phoenix/Jean Grey, while I thought her death was one of the most moving in comics, I also felt her "resurrection" worked. I really didn't feel it harmed the original story -- in fact, it somewhat enhanced it to think that the Phoenix-force had taken on so much of Jean's personality.
For Supergirl, I do not care for the fact that Kara Zor-el is back. I've read the Superman-Batman tpb where she returns, and it didn't do anything for me. In this case, I feel the Crisis on Infinite Earths story was cheapened.
As for the Barry Allen reference, right on. We know he's around, but the character (and the Flash as well) has been handled extremely well through the years.
Other thoughts?
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Post by Tana Nile on Jan 25, 2007 23:07:38 GMT -5
It's been years since I read The Death of Captain Marvel, so I pulled it off the shelf and sat down with it today.
It is still a beautiful, moving work. Starlin just nailed it with this one. At the time, I hated to see Mar-Vell go...he was one of my favorite heroes. But I couldn't argue with the way his death was handled.
I wouldn't say "The Return" ruins TDOCM, but it shows an utter disrespect for it, and in my mind, sort of lessens the impact of that story. I felt the same way after Jean Grey was brought back. Here was another very moving death, and then we are told that it wasn't really Jean, that everything that happened with Jean after issue 100 was just the Phoenix entity, thinking it was Jean. That I could almost tolerate, but then Marvel kept killing Jean off and bringing her back, such that it became a joke.
I don't want to see Mar-Vell become a joke. I wasn't impressed with this story (and as others have said, why was this cobbled into a CW book? Why not just start a new CM series?) but I will give Marvel a chance to win me over. Right now though, it just reeks of money-grubbing.
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jkemble
Reservist Avenger
the Cosmic Frog
Posts: 243
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Post by jkemble on Jan 26, 2007 1:09:14 GMT -5
Word. I think Hawkeye and Wanda both brought more suspense and tension as we all waited over the summer to see where (and how) they would turn up. Wanda wasn't even really dead, and we all knew that Clint was coming back. Even when I saw them on the solicitation, I anticipated the issue, wanting to read the answers myself. The Return reminds me of another thing Marvel did a while back bringing dead heroes back to life, it was called: Heroes Reborn: The Return. the irony. oh yeah, and Civil War? hasn't the whole "registration" thing been played out to death in X-Men and even Alpha Flight? I pray to whatever pagen god you sacrifice goats to that the comics don't follow Hollywoods writer-block of remakes and sequels... Dukes of Hazard anyone?
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Post by Black Knight on Jan 26, 2007 8:56:21 GMT -5
I do so love that Joe Q when he took over Marvel stated "Dead is Dead" and that charaters once dead would not be brought back. So lets take a look at that.
Captain Marvel (back) Hawkeye (back) Vision (back) Bucky (back)
It is all about the cheap fast buck to marvel. Perhaps they should try acutally telling good stories, and they will see the money role in.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jan 26, 2007 12:41:59 GMT -5
...As a Barry Allen fan, I want to point out how laughable that really is. I mean seriously. Barry Allen KEEPS coming back. So you're saying if Captain Marvel left again, it'd be all better?
That's the thing. It's difficult to care at ALL when a DC character dies or comes back, because they just rejig continuity so easily with no care whatsoever for the fans. But hang on- someone said it's fine because when Barry Allen came back, it was with good writers? Then surely yo uneed to wait until the Captain Marvel series comes out?
I mean really, you guys are great but you are INCREDIBLY judgemental of anything Marvel does. Honestly, Marvel could announce the story of your dreams by the writer of your dreams and you'd still bash it non-stop.
Well take out Bucky, since he didn't die in Joe Q's era. Same with Cap. Marvel. Take out Hawkeye since there was COLOSSAL fan outcry when he died and you would have just complained if he hadn't come back. And take out Vision because as a supporter of the original character it's obvious that our Young Avengers vision is not the same android.
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Post by Black Knight on Jan 26, 2007 14:04:03 GMT -5
...As a Barry Allen fan, I want to point out how laughable that really is. I mean seriously. Barry Allen KEEPS coming back. So you're saying if Captain Marvel left again, it'd be all better? That's the thing. It's difficult to care at ALL when a DC character dies or comes back, because they just rejig continuity so easily with no care whatsoever for the fans. But hang on- someone said it's fine because when Barry Allen came back, it was with good writers? Then surely yo uneed to wait until the Captain Marvel series comes out? I mean really, you guys are great but you are INCREDIBLY judgemental of anything Marvel does. Honestly, Marvel could announce the story of your dreams by the writer of your dreams and you'd still bash it non-stop. Well take out Bucky, since he didn't die in Joe Q's era. Same with Cap. Marvel. Take out Hawkeye since there was COLOSSAL fan outcry when he died and you would have just complained if he hadn't come back. And take out Vision because as a supporter of the original character it's obvious that our Young Avengers vision is not the same android. If you where a Barry Allen fan, you would know he comes back for small periods, but they have never given him his own comic again. In fact if you read the issues you would know that the Barry that has been back is from a different time and is racing towards his death.. WOW I guess Marvel really just stole it all from DC with CM, except they did it poorly and cheaply and now they are going so far as to give a comic and if it sells he will never die. LOL Finally, why would I take out any dead charater, "DEAD is DEAD" is what Joe Q said. Not "If they die on my watch they are Dead". Sorry they all count, including Colossas, wich I forgot, and I am sure Jean Grey when she comes back. LOL
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