the Second Genie? (spoiler, maybe?)

[jkemble]

Okay, I'll cut right to the chase:

Joe Q from Joe Fridays week 21:

"There were several plans and hopes that I had when I took over as E-i-C, many of them immediate like fixing many of the key books and placing key talent on those titles, but several which I never went public with but which my staff internally has known for quite some time. I refer to these as 'putting the genie back in the bottle' initiatives which take a lot longer to plan and just the right story in which to do it. These particular initiatives are less about immediate sales and goodwill and more about the future of Marvel with respect to new readers and future stories moving forward.

Out of all of these there are two major ones that have haunted me since day one. After House of M, there will only be one is left, well at least until another one rears its head. See, after forty years of publishing there are just some things that get out of hand and if your not careful, they've either broken or will break a character or a franchise. So, lets get to it. "

link: www.newsarama.com/JoeFridays/JoeFridays21.html

Joe Q from Joe Fridays week 48:

"This is an interesting story. Back when I was merely a casual fan, I was floored when I heard that Marvel married off Spider-Man, even then I felt it was a strategic mistake. It just seemed strange to me that they would consider something of the sort with Marvel’s #1 icon. To me it was the equivalent of marrying off Archie and having it become the ongoing continuity for the character..." [edited for length, please see article]

"While I always hated the portrayal of the marriage, and by that I mean that for years after they were married they were never really portrayed as truly happy, I don’t understand in a way why that was done. I believe it was an attempt by the creators back then to bring back a much-needed tension to the relationship side of Peter’s world that was now missing because he was no longer single. It was an attempt to bring back the soap opera.

As a single character there was always that possibility that Peter could meet someone new. Now if you have him even consider a new relationship, he would become the most dislikable character in the history of comics, he’s a married man and he’s Peter Parker. Peter Parker is us - he is our everyman, that’s what makes him so likable. In the past, during his single days, he could have been torn by a romantic triangle, not now that he’s married. How about that wonderful tension that there use to be between Peter and Black Cat. As it stands she can try to tempt him, but in no way can Peter succumb and still remain a likable character. "

[later] "...NRAMA: You've mentioned this already, but let's reiterate just to be crystal clear - in talking about how marriage may not have been the best thing for Spidey's character, divorce is about 100x worse, right?

JQ: Yup, it would be simply horrible, a 1000% worse. "

link: www.newsarama.com/JoeFridays/JoeFridays48.html

maybe it's a good time to start reading Amazing Spiderman?

peace!

[Van Plexico]

Excellent post. I think you are dead-on. (Pardon the expression.) And I am shocked by this. But it would make for a good "Superman holding Supergirl's body" moment, in CIVIL WAR...

[Shiryu]

Oh oh, interesting one. Looks like Peter's life is going to take another turn for the worse...
I wonder how fans will react. When MJ was believed dead a few years ago, there was some huge criticizing (in Italy), as well as a bunch of very boring issues I didn't like at all. Hope this time things go better...

[The Night Phantom]

An alternative would be to dissolve the marriage (via divorce or annulment) because of Peter and M.J.’s commitment to one another. Perhaps in the wake of Civil War, some baddies learn Spidey’s secret identity, and a breakup is the only way to prevent M.J.’s safety becoming leverage against Spider-Man. That would be more soap opera right there!

[jkemble]

or... MJ's a clone!

[Shiryu]

God, hope it's not a clone !
Night Phantom alternative is a very nice one, but the same problem would prevent Peter from getting close to anybody else, and I think Quesada misses the time when he was torn between two women.
Maybe MJ will die for real ? unlikely, but who knows...

[thew40]

Joe Q has said a few times in the past two weeks that despite the marriage being a problem, killing or divorcing MJ would make it worse.

~W~

[Shiryu]

Wonder what's going to happen then...
May be they will have MJ doing something really wrong, and then walking away from Peter, but that would still be kind of a divorce...
It will be (hopefully) interesting to see.

[The Night Phantom]

shiryu said:

Night Phantom alternative is a very nice one, but the same problem would prevent Peter from getting close to anybody else, and I think Quesada misses the time when he was torn between two women.

You’re right; maybe Mary Jane would simply be traumatized by some instance of super-villainy (as she was when Venom was first revealed), and Peter would decide they should go their separate ways. A divorce or annulment under such circumstances would not make the characters look bad, and I think that could mitigate Joe Q’s concerns. And of course it would leave the door open for relationships with other women.

You could also have situations involving memory loss or historical reality warping. Both strike me as cheap tricks unless pulled off perfectly, and I think we’ve had too much of the latter lately.

Or—you could follow my earlier “leverage” scenario, but then the bad guys in question die or have memory loss of their own; and by that time, M.J. has moved on, and/or Peter has grown closer to someone else in spite of himself, and so it’s no longer merely a question of Peter and M.J. reuniting.

[jkemble]

here we go again:
from Newsarama's Joe Fridays:

NRAMA: Okay then, onto more Reader Questions…

“Ozwell” - ...How tempting is a Marvel crisis/reboot storyline to you? It would help to address the Spiderman/Mary Jane dilemma that you have been talking about and would help to 'fix' a number of complications.

JQ: It’s always very tempting, Ozwell, and when you really think about it, it would have been incredibly easy to have done it after House of M. The thought crossed our minds, but our feeling is that if we were ever to tell a story like that it really wouldn’t do it justice to do it in a major line wide event. A story like the unmarrying of Peter and MJ first and foremost would have to be heart wrenching, it’s not a summer “War Of The Worlds” type blockbuster. It would have to be ground level, very human, something that dealt with characters not spandex.
In other words, the solution if we could ever find one has to be small, human, like Peter … not Universe altering if that makes any sense.
That said, boy are you in for a treat when you get to the last page of Civil War [laughs ominously]...

www.newsarama.com/JoeFridays/JoeFridays51.html

[The Night Phantom]

Maybe Starfox will woo M.J. away, against her free will.

[jkemble]

hmmmmm...
from Newsarama WW PHILADELPHIA: MARVEL CIVIL WAR PANEL
www.newsarama.com/WWPhilly06/Marvel/CivilWar/MvlCWPanel.html

"...As he did in previous panels, Brevoort backed up Quesada's reasons for not being the biggest fan of the marriage, saying that a married Spider-Man is operating "at 40%" compared to a single Peter Parker.

Still carrying the thread, talking more about the marriage, and echoing Brevoort's sentiments, Quesada, perhaps not even realizing he said it, and not phrasing it as a hypothetical, said (paraphrasing) he'll get back with Mary Jane, it may be a year, it may be two years, but it's how you get there. This was the most direct, albeit inadvertent, indication of where things are headed for the Spider marriage."

peace!

[Shiryu]

Hmm, so it's going to be a temporary break down with MJ, likely due to the events of CW.

[steed]

I'm sorry but this just shows how immature these guys at Marvel are. They can't handle writing a character who is married. This is what bothered me the most about the end of the last series of Avengers when they had to suddenly bring back "Hank Pym, Wifebeater" and have Hawkeye sleeping with Jan. They totaly ignored all the history among these three characters because they couldn't write adult relationships.

C'mon. I know these stories are supposed to be a fifteen year old male's "power fantasy" and that fantasy probably doesn't include marriage but I always hear the hype "comics aren't just for kids anymore." Why can't the characters act like adults if they are meant for a more mature readership. What happened to all the growth that was shown in the late '70's and early '80's where we had characters like Peter Parker graduating from college and becoming an adult.

And besides, if the reader can't handle an adult relationship in Spider-Man, then go read all that crap they do in the "Ultimate " series where little Petey is still in high school chasing girls.

[The Night Phantom]

steed said:

I'm sorry but this just shows how immature these guys at Marvel are. They can't handle writing a character who is married.

Ever read Fantastic Four in the past forty years?

This is what bothered me the most about the end of the last series of Avengers when they had to suddenly bring back "Hank Pym, Wifebeater" and have Hawkeye sleeping with Jan. They totaly ignored all the history among these three characters because they couldn't write adult relationships.

“They”? or just one writer (who is often vilified by fandom assembled)?

Why can't the characters act like adults if they are meant for a more mature readership. What happened to all the growth that was shown in the late '70's and early '80's where we had characters like Peter Parker graduating from college and becoming an adult.

What other Marvel characters graduated from college in the late ’70s and early ’80s? (Bobby Drake, maybe?)

I wouldn’t mind seeing more Marvel marriages that last...but not all adults get married, either. And not all adults who get married stay married.

Those interested in the Peter Parker marriage debate might be interested in this thread on “real change” vs. “illusion of change”.

[steed]

As an answer to Night Phantoms points:

Point 1: I have every issue of the FF from #11 up and a few scattered issues before that. One of my all time favorite books, right up there with the Avengers. It's also a key example of what I'm saying. Stan and Jack took this book to the pinnacle of what adult and family relationships could be in a super hero comic. Roy Thomas kinda changed things when he had Sue leave the group and suddenly I didn't get that "family feel" to the book anymore. Sue come back, she and Reed are happy and you have it back. But over the years we've had Sue leave Reed to live in Atlantis with Namor, Sue become Malice, Reed "dies" and Sue becomes Uber-b**ch, Reed comes back and is Uber-wimp, Sue and Reed leave making the book just another team book, Ben leaves for some inane reason so Johnny takes up with Alisa, and so on. The FF haven't been true to the original concept until the last couple of years when the writers have brought back the "family feel". Ben dies so the other three decide to go to Heaven to get him back is a classic for me. And I know it was over a 40 year span, but it seems to me that most of the creators over that span have a difficult time dealing with an adult relationship in the book.

Point 2: Yep, I did paint with a broad brush on this one. But it's easy to say it's the writers fault that this happens or that happens but isn't there also an editor on the book that can say "This ain't happening." Case in point: Shooter shot down (pun intended) Claremont and Byrne's idea of "reforming" Jean Grey with a pyschic lobotomy after her Phoenix persona destroyed an inhabited planet saying the punishment didn't fit the crime and that Jean should make the ultimate sacrifice at the end of the original "Phoenix Saga". It's easy to blame the writer but usually there is more than one guy behind the scenes calling the shots.

Point 3: Sure there wasn't a rush for the ol' sheepskin in the Marvel Universe but that's not what I meant about characters acting like adults. I just used Pete as an example. Other such examples would be the original X-Men going their own way after the new team was formed in X-Men # 94( original series), the relationship between Scott and Jean and the interaction among characters in such books as the Avengers, ff and MTU (especially the Claremont/Byrne issues) and Marvel Two-In -One (the Pegasus series). This is the time period when they came up with such classic ideas as the Thing hosting poker games with the likes of Nick Fury, Wonderman and Ms. Marvel. In the 60's and early 70's heroes couldn't meet without duking it out first. Even Mary Jane grew up after the death of Gwen.

And I did read "Real change vs the illusion of change". Good article.

[The Night Phantom]

steed said:

Point 1: I have every issue of the FF from #11 up and a few scattered issues before that. One of my all time favorite books, right up there with the Avengers. It's also a key example of what I'm saying. Stan and Jack took this book to the pinnacle of what adult and family relationships could be in a super hero comic. Roy Thomas kinda changed things when he had Sue leave the group and suddenly I didn't get that "family feel" to the book anymore. Sue come back, she and Reed are happy and you have it back. But over the years we've had Sue leave Reed to live in Atlantis with Namor, Sue become Malice, Reed "dies" and Sue becomes Uber-b**ch, Reed comes back and is Uber-wimp, Sue and Reed leave making the book just another team book, Ben leaves for some inane reason so Johnny takes up with Alisa, and so on. The FF haven't been true to the original concept until the last couple of years when the writers have brought back the "family feel". Ben dies so the other three decide to go to Heaven to get him back is a classic for me. And I know it was over a 40 year span, but it seems to me that most of the creators over that span have a difficult time dealing with an adult relationship in the book.

Outside What If?, I don’t recall Sue’s living with Namor in Atlantis. Regardless of the relationships and histories involved, I’d say it’s a lousy plan, given the air issue! Maybe next she can live with Norrin Radd on his spacefaring surfboard!

Anyway, I would agree that over 40+ years the quality of the writing has varied (inevitably). As much as I respect Roy Thomas’ contibutions to the Avengers, for instance, I am overall disappointed by his FF run (not that it was all bad), including the handling of the Reed–Sue separation. But simultaneously I suspect that’s a good example of where you and I disagree. I also value FF as a “family” book—but even well-functioning families are not always 100% harmonious. My problem with the Reed–Sue separation was that it was treated with insufficient emotion, not that it occurred at all. Sometimes marriages run into trouble, and depicting that truth is not necessarily immature. Some of the other (post-Thomas) events you mentioned were not necessarily great moves either, yet...the family endures. For example, the period during which Susan became an überwitch (to gently rephrase it) and led the team while Reed was “dead” actually shows the depth of Susan’s commitment to Reed, for she (correctly) disbelieved in Reed’s demise and remained steadfastly devoted. (And I actually enjoyed the personality change, not because I preferred the new Susan—I didn’t—but because I knew it was a temporary fake that was effective in keeping things lively, and it doubled as commentary on trends in comics and other pop culture, as did some of DeFalco’s other choices.)

The reason I brought up the FF and the Reed–Sue marriage was in answer to your contention that Marvel can’t handle writing a married character. While you and I may disagree in our evaluations of some of the ups and downs of this particular marriage, obviously you think it’s handled well some of the time (if too little of the time!), and so I feel my obliquely worded objection to your earlier contention is in fact supported by your reply. But I would join you in hoping that this marriage’s portrayal will be handled more consistently well and that Marvel will add a few more such portrayals.

Point 2: Yep, I did paint with a broad brush on this one. But it's easy to say it's the writers fault that this happens or that happens but isn't there also an editor on the book that can say "This ain't happening." Case in point: Shooter shot down (pun intended) Claremont and Byrne's idea of "reforming" Jean Grey with a pyschic lobotomy after her Phoenix persona destroyed an inhabited planet saying the punishment didn't fit the crime and that Jean should make the ultimate sacrifice at the end of the original "Phoenix Saga". It's easy to blame the writer but usually there is more than one guy behind the scenes calling the shots.

That’s often true. Perhaps almost always true. But in the context in which you wrote your comment, I felt you were condemning Marvel’s writers and editors collectively for one particular storyline. If that was not your intent, then my objection is superfluous.

Point 3: Sure there wasn't a rush for the ol' sheepskin in the Marvel Universe but that's not what I meant about characters acting like adults. I just used Pete as an example.

Good, because that brings us back to the topic at hand. The reasoning for considering the Peter–M.J. marriage a mistake is that in terms of storytelling drama, it removes options while adding none (at least none considered viable for the continued tradition of the Spider-Man/Peter Parker character): e.g., Peter finding himself in a love triangle via infidelity is considered off limits. Do you consider this reasoning “immature” or otherwise flawed?


Modification: I removed a stray parenthesis.

[jkemble]

c'mon guys, please be civil... not war!
(get it, civil war?)

[The Night Phantom]

jkemble said:

c'mon guys, please be civil... not war!
(get it, civil war?)

I not only get it...I give it back!!

[steed]

I take no offense to this.

And Sue left Reed after he zapped Franlin because Franklin's brain was overloading. This happened in vol#1 #141 and in issue #147 Namor "staged" an attack on the surface world with Sue by his side, but at the end of the story we find out the whole attack was a hoax put on by Namor to reunite Reed and Sue.

And as far as Sue living underwater being a problem, just remember, it's only a comic book. People can't really turn invisible or burst into flames and fly.

[The Night Phantom]

steed said:

And Sue left Reed after he zapped Franlin because Franklin's brain was overloading. This happened in vol#1 #141 and in issue #147 Namor "staged" an attack on the surface world with Sue by his side, but at the end of the story we find out the whole attack was a hoax put on by Namor to reunite Reed and Sue.

I remembered this storyline (but I totally misattributed the writing chores—it’s Gerry Conway, not Roy Thomas ​—mea culpa), but it was the description of “Sue [leaving] Reed to live in Atlantis with Namor” that confused me. In #141, she leaves Reed because of his actions vis–à-vis Franklin, with no apparent thoughts of Namor, then in the next couple of issues we learn that she’s gone to stay with some non-water-breathing friends in Pennsylvania. Several issues later (#147–149), she’s hanging with Namor, though (having quickly skimmed those issues) I’m not certain she ever resided in Atlantis.

While I don’t mind the plotting of this storyline, I think the scripting (dialogue) fails to make the twists and turns emotionally believable, and for that reason I agree this is not a particularly good storyline. The separation also permitted Medusa to join the team, and I feel her character was never (within this run) established as particularly interesting to the reader or connected to her teammates. A wasted opportunity.

And as far as Sue living underwater being a problem, just remember, it's only a comic book. People can't really turn invisible or burst into flames and fly.

They can if such are their powers, but if water-breathing isn’t one of your powers, you might be “sunk”! ;D

[The Night Phantom]

In today’s New Joe Fridays #1, Quesada makes an interesting claim that bears on the topic of this thread:

I also think that one of the most positive things we did with Spidey was that I asked Joe and Paul to embrace the marriage, if it’s here and we have to deal with it, then lets show it in a positive light. Enough writing her out of the books, sending her away, having them bicker all the time. If Pete has to be married, lets show folks a loving supporting marriage. And Paul and Joe did it masterfully.

[Shiryu]

Who are Joe and Paul ?

A bit of a more positive news though. Maybe the marriage will stay.

[The Night Phantom]

shiryu said:

Who are Joe and Paul ?

Joe is J. Michael Straczynski, writer of Amazing Spider-Man; Paul is Paul Jenkins, writer of the defunct Peter Parker: Spider-Man and Spectacular Spider-Man.

[Shiryu]

Oh, now I get it. I was confused by Paul because it has been a while since he wrote Spidey (a couple of years I think), and I fought Straczinsky first name was John ;D

[The Night Phantom]

shiryu said:

A bit of a more positive news though. Maybe the marriage will stay.

Hm. Now that I think about it...

Joe Quesada (as quoted by the Night Phantom) said:

If Pete has to be married, lets show folks a loving supporting marriage. And Paul and Joe did it masterfully. (emphasis mine—NP)

Did, past tense?

Well, Joe Q has a history of dropping hints without much truth to them, for the purpose of drawing attention to the topic of the hints; in the selfsame New Joe Fridays #1, Quesada discusses just such an instance, in fact, and even likens it to the married-Spidey discussions.

[The Night Phantom]

From today’s New Joe Fridays #2:

NRAMA: Touching lightly – and I mean lightly mister – fifteen minute addresses – on one of the other Spider-Man issues. MJ – could you ever see Peter Parker as a widower?

JQ: It could happen.

The teasing continues...

[Shiryu]

I think JQ is having some great fun at our expenses... like when he said the Thor would stay dead because fans prefere Speedball.

[jkemble]

oh, my, god. I for one am already starting to get tired of hearing Spiderman, Spiderman, Spiderman.
...and how are they going to resolve this? the Beyonder? ah, well, still love those Marvel Comics!

[tschamp]

Has anyone consider that maybe just maybe they find Peter and MJ's baby or she is returned to them?