Civil War # 1 talkback

[thew40]

All right, guys, what do you think?

This thread will have some SPOILERS, so leave now before you ruin it for yourself.






Overall, a great issue. Good characterization. Cap's fight sequence on the helicarrier was awesome.

The reactions to the accident were well done form both super-heroes and regular people. Very well-rounded.

The Watcher's appearance was pretty neat. Showed the weight of the situation.

Maria Hill is a great character. She's the kinda person you love to hate.

The New Warriors' death was sad and while I wouldn't like it if were a big fan of the team, I can understand why Marvel picked them to screw up.

Great comic. Can't wait for the rest of the series.

~W~

[jkemble]

Got it, read it... and...
to tell the truth, I wished that I hadn't seen the Civil War preview,
it lessened the impact of the death of the New Warriors,
it was kinda like a huge spoiler...

I really enjoyed the Watcher showing up also,
and Cap escaping the helicarier is great,
as is Iron Man's flipping sides (from the Spiderman issues)
but, again, I was disapointed with the death of the New Warriors,
I hope that Mark remembers that Namorita is the Sub-Mariners cousin (?)
anyway, I'm hoping for tight continuity with the cross-over / tie-ins,
but who knows...

[Van Plexico]

From my point of view, there were really only four or five main facets to this story.

And I pretty much enjoyed each of them well enough.

About the art, I'll simply say:

I don't much care for McNiven's work. Modern coloring techniques can really punch up anyone's pencils, and the big double-splash looked nice enough... but I don't care for his style. Faces, in particular. Ah, well.

Ok, spoiler space:

Stark vs Rogers at Antietam Creek

Spidey vs Wolverine at Bull Run

Cap vs Mr Fantastic at Vicksburg

Okay,

Enough

of

that:


The five major points for me:

1. The Opening Scene.
I'd seen it already, weeks ago, in WIZARD, so it didn't have the impact here that it should have. Too bad-- it was pretty dramatic. And I liked that it was Nitro. Of all the baddies I've followed through the MU, over the years, he was always one of the most annoying. Not to mention the whole Mar-Vell thing.

(I had a friend in elementary school who bought the Nitro issue of CAPTAIN MARVEL and showed it to me, saying, "Look-- Captain Marvel is dead!" And I argued, "No, no, that's just them being dramatic. He'll be fine." Well, we were both right. My friend died a couple of years later, and never got to find out how right he was...)

2. The "shocking incidents."
Probably the most surprising part of this issue, for me. I should have seen that coming, but still... The Johnny Storm bit, especially. Good choice, there. Surely Johnny, of all the major MU heroes, has always been the one who loves his own fame and the public's adoration the most. So it really hit home hard.

3. When Caps Go Wild.
Nifty. A little too reminiscent of Wolverine in HOUSE OF M, but pretty entertaining. I liked how the old general was sort of rooting for Cap, too. Heh.

4. No villain.
I like this aspect of the story a lot. I mean, Millar and Bendis have put a lot of effort into making this new SHIELD lady into a real pain in the a$$, but clearly she's no villain-- just pig-headed, and following orders. One also might argue (if one were so inclined) that the real villain in all of this is the US Government, willing to do such a thing. So-- I have no choice but to blame the Republican Congress.

(And I'd like to see the voting breakdown-- I'm sure all the GOP members voted for it, and probably Democrats such as Hillary Clinton, who likewise voted for the Iraq business, in order to look tough and maintain credibility with centrist voters. Which means Cap is likely siding with Dennis Kucinich, Nancy Pelosi, and Bernie Sanders. Heh. I like that.

5. And finally: Iron Man as major character in the Marvel Universe.

"But Van," you say, "Iron Man has ALWAYS been a major character in the MU. To which I reply, "Well... sort of."

What I mean is this: Iron Man has always been one of a dozen or so tip-top Marvel heroes, buuuuuut... In the past couple of years, I have noticed his stock dramatically going up, WITHIN the MU. I don't mean his stature as a comic book character-- in fact, ironically enough, it has coincided with the near-absence from the comics stands of his own series. What we've gotten instead, at precisely the same time, is Iron Man much more heavily involved within team books (everything from the TBOLTS/AVENGERS mini to Bendis's NEW AVENGERS to YOUNG AVENGERS to CIVIL WAR, among numerous examples).

And not just more involved-- more important. A bigger figure in the MU.

Previously, he was always the rich guy that paid the Avengers' bills, etc., but he was never of much bigger stature, IMO, than just about any other Avenger-- at least as Iron Man, the superhero.

In some ways, this has paralleled Cap's rise in stature within the MU, too-- though Cap's came a bit earlier, exemplified by moments such as his dramatically standing up to Korvac and Thanos.

Those moments, and scenes around them, lifted Cap from "Living Legend of WW II" to the stature he has today, as basically "Earth's Most Respected Hero," held in reverence and awe by all other heroes. Cap hasn't always been that way, and I think a lot of that comes from how readers, growing up, perceived him, and how writers then completed the cycle and put that esteem and respect for Cap back into the stories.

(Don't believe me? Go back and read Jim Shooter's well-loved AVENGERS runs from the late '70s, for example. I'd argue Iron Man and Cap aren't really portrayed as that much "loftier" in stature than Hank, Jan, Vizh, etc.)

Iron Man, now, has somehow achieved... well, not quite Cap's stature within the MU, certainly... but far more importance than he's ever had before. And not all of it in a good way-- there's a somewhat new, darker edge to him, that I can't quite pin down.

It's probably helped that Thor's been gone during that time, too. With only Cap and Iron Man left, of the Big Three, they've both seen their statures rise within the MU. Look especially at Bendis's work and their appearances in YOUNG AVENGERS. To some degree, it is as if they are the Avengers, and everyone just tags along, seeming vaguely out of place.

I'm not sure I can explain it any better than that, but I'd love to hear other comments and thoughts on this phenomenon. Because, one way or another, I'm convinced it's true.

[von Bek]

I really liked this issue.
Good to see that Marvel can still produce a comic that surprised (in a good way) and entertained me.

I agree with Van that IM is becoming a major player in the MU, like he should be. C´mon, is Tony Stark, a genius inventor, ladys man and super hero.
Also very interesting that Millar choose to make Cap, who traditionally had ever been on the same side of the goverment, an out law freedom fighter and Stark, the individualist playboy, to represent the stablishment.

And one of my favourite Avenger, Hank Pym, has also a proeminent role in the series and he MU!

I like McNiven´s art, but his faces sometimes look kinda weird...
And Cap vs. Shield was amazing.

Another point for Millar for not turning Maria Hill into a charicature, she is a pain in the a$$, but not really evil, and I hope Millar doesn´t go the easy route of turning her into an unidimensional villain or something stupid like say she is being mind controlled.

Very good start and I got high hopes for this series.

[imperiusrex]

S'funny that so many people see Cap as being a government lackey and IM as being more of an iconoclast.
Cap has fought with the government more than anyone- look at his resigning his post as Cap more than once, he's more disillusioned than anyone else (remember his secret empire government discovery that led him to become Nomad), he's really quite the idealist, which puts him outside the law in some instances.
And Tony stark is/was in munitions, a man who makes weapons for killing tends to be more pragmatic even if he is a playboy. Just enjoying the ladies doesn't make him less of a warmonger...

[The Night Phantom]

My greatest impressions with this issue lie in the Captain America–SHIELD confrontation:

• Although Cap’s thinking was well in character, some of the dialogue was not. Cap does not easily slip into soulless action-hero phrases like “d‍amn you to hell” and “don’t even think about it, little man”. Those lines took me out of the story.
  
• I don’t know much about Maria Hill or today’s SHIELD, but I was nonplussed by Hill’s use of heavy force to enforce a law that isn’t even a law yet (if ever!).
  

[Van Plexico]

S'funny that so many people see Cap as being a government lackey and IM as being more of an iconoclast.
Cap has fought with the government more than anyone- look at his resigning his post as Cap more than once, he's more disillusioned than anyone else (remember his secret empire government discovery that led him to become Nomad), he's really quite the idealist, which puts him outside the law in some instances.
And Tony stark is/was in munitions, a man who makes weapons for killing tends to be more pragmatic even if he is a playboy. Just enjoying the ladies doesn't make him less of a warmonger...

I totally agree. In fact, the #1 problem I felt I was going to have with this series, from the beginning, was the casting of Iron Man/Tony Stark as somehow an agent of the "registration" side. I see both Steve and Tony adamantly opposed to such a thing.

The explanations we've been given so far, though, have been about as good as they could have been, so I'm still withholding judgment (as an Iron Man fan) until more evidence is in.

[von Bek]

Lackey may be to strong a word, but Cap was more times than not on the side of the government. And when he discovered the Secret Empire conspiracy within the government he choosed to not be CA anymore and after a conversation with old pal Hawkeye become Nomad, so giving the CA identity up.
Again in Waid/Garney first run, when Steve Rogers becomes a 'man without a country' and declared a traitor by the government he was very depressed.
After all he is a hero of the 40´s, so for him seeing the difference betweeen state and country may not be so easy as it is for Stark, who no doubt sees himself as a member of the intelectual and material elite (IIRC it was even adressed in Busiek´s first Avengers arc when Tony was very much confortable with his role as royalty in LeFey´s world).

But Millar did a very good job in making they 'switch' places, the reason for each one doing so were satisfatory IMO.

[thew40]

nightphantom said:

[/li][li]I don’t know much about Maria Hill or today’s SHIELD, but I was nonplussed by Hill’s use of heavy force to enforce a law that isn’t even a law yet (if ever!).
[/list][/quote]

I loaned the issue out to a friend, so I don't have it front of me, but I had the impression that SHIELD was preparing for when it becomes law. That, and they probably have a bunch heavy force sitting around in the super-heroes are whisked off to Battleworld or somewhere and they need to handle a super-villain/alien invasion situation.

~W~

[The Night Phantom]

I was reacting not to the idea that SHIELD already has training and equipment for such a task (at which it failed ), but rather to the fact that force against Captain America was authorized for his refusal to abide by a law that is not a law. It’s tantamount to using the Constitution as toilet paper.

[spiderwasp]

nightphantom said:

I was reacting not to the idea that SHIELD already has training and equipment for such a task (at which it failed ), but rather to the fact that force against Captain America was authorized for his refusal to abide by a law that is not a law. It’s tantamount to using the Constitution as toilet paper.

You're absolutely right. The same thing bothered me.

[imperiusrex]

vonbek said:

Lackey may be to strong a word, but Cap was more times than not on the side of the government. And when he discovered the Secret Empire conspiracy within the government he choosed to not be CA anymore and after a conversation with old pal Hawkeye become Nomad, so giving the CA identity up.
Again in Waid/Garney first run, when Steve Rogers becomes a 'man without a country' and declared a traitor by the government he was very depressed.
After all he is a hero of the 40´s, so for him seeing the difference betweeen state and country may not be so easy as it is for Stark, who no doubt sees himself as a member of the intelectual and material elite (IIRC it was even adressed in Busiek´s first Avengers arc when Tony was very much confortable with his role as royalty in LeFey´s world).

But Millar did a very good job in making they 'switch' places, the reason for each one doing so were satisfatory IMO.

Oh I think Cap follows the government because he believes in the ideal behind it, but he'll break the law immediately when it puts innocents in danger. Remember in Born Again when Nuke was killing people? Cap went into a govt, building used force and hacked into the computer network to find out who he was. Those actions are tantamount to treason, yet with lives on the line he didn't have any moral qualms about defying his government.
Iron Man has always been a pragmatic, calculating genius. I remember two occasions when he took female hostages (Jocasta and Carina) because to him it was the most expedient way to get the result he needed. I think he supports the law because he knows at some point he'll outsmart it, but his pragmatism has always taken precedence over his moral stance, to me...

[Shiryu]

I think Cap has often stated that he is faithful to the American dream rather than to the American government, meaning that he considers himself free to go against the government if he doesn't consider it right.

[The Night Phantom]

nightphantom said:

I was nonplussed by Hill’s use of heavy force to enforce a law that isn’t even a law yet (if ever!).

In this week’s Joe Fridays column over at Newsarama, Joe Quesada addresses concerns like mine:

Cap is still agent of the government, he’s still a soldier and an agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. Hill gave him an order and he didn’t follow it, that makes him an insubordinate, so Hill ordered the S.H.I.E.L.D. agents to restrain Cap and that’s what they tried to do.

I admit I haven’t been keeping up with Captain America’s own series much over the last few years, but the soldier-and-agent-of-SHIELD claim caught me a little by surprise. I was under the impression that Cap has not been in the Army since WW II. (An argument to the contrary was made back in Captain America #332; but in the following issue, Henry Peter Gyrich categorically stated, “Steve Rogers, technically, is not part of the military rank and file.” Has Cap signed up again since?) I do realize that Cap is an agent of SHIELD—this status does come up time and again in New Avengers—but I was under the impression he is some sort of loosely affiliated free agent. But I could be wrong.

[Shiryu]

I've finally found a way to read it !
Overall I enjoyed it, and I agree that Cap's battle was nice. The scenes with the Torch, or with Stark at the funeral were nasty though, especially considering that those very same people wouldn't be there if not for the heroes saving them from the likes of Galactus, Kulan Gath, Kang, the Exemplars, the Presence and many many more.
As such, I can't see the heroes turning on each other so easily, especially old friends like Hank, Reed and Cap.
The art was ok. I didn't like the "normal" / unmasked faces too much, but I've seen worse so no real complain.

[Yellowjacket]

With a little delay I did read it too and yes, I did enjoy it, too. Right from issue 1 on there is not only some very high conflict potential between the heroes but already the confrontation between the sides has begun - and I´m clearly with Cap, I think he´s the best choice for the leader of the opposing party (when choosing between order and law, order would be my choice, too).

And, as an Avengers fan, I liked that Millar did choose Avengers characters as main characters, at least so far.
I´m a little bit dissapointed that Yellowjacket choosed the governments side, but then I think it goes within his characterization and didn´t Millar mention (some) people will changes sides again (maybe several times).

So, let´s hope the announced (first) big suprise for issue 2 isn´t some hype and let´s especially see how the villains will fit in.
I´m really curious what Doc Doom will do. Maybe Latveria will be an asylum for some heroes/villains soon - could really be fun stuff!

[dlw66]

I finally got around to reading this last night, and for the most part enjoyed it. I would echo many of the thoughts posted here about Cap and the gov't throughout the past many years. I would also say that much of the money generated by both Stark and Reed Richards throughout Marvel history has been due in large part to fat gov't contracts -- don't bite the hand that feeds you, the sugar daddy!

I was somewhat surprised to see Hank back -- it seems like it's been so long since we've seen him! And seeing Bill Foster back in his Goliath suit was awesome.

Like others have said, I almost think the "road to civil war" is too easy -- there are long-term relationships that just seem to be ready to crumble. A little too much testosterone on display and not enough rational minds...

[Yellowjacket]

Quasi, action, not words... ;D

[Shiryu]

A question for those who also read Daredevil: in one website I read that the DD appearing in this issue is an imposter. Anyone knows something about it ?

[Yellowjacket]

Don´t know any rumors from the internet etc., but no I wouldn´t say he is an imposter. Some kind of ersatz fits better as there have been some (few) fighting scenes -- so far he seems having an comparable fighting style (lately martial arts), but nothing is known about special abilities.
The story is (of course) concentrating on Murdock in Ryker´s and after 4 issues nothing is known about the identy of the ersatz DD.

Btw, this DD storyline rocks, is really great. Brubaker gives Murdock a real hard time in prison and Michael Lark´s art is fantastic, great stuff. Storywise it seems all of DD´s alltime fave villains are in Ryker´s and in this issue he did even get company by no other than order before law man - The Punisher. :-)

[Shiryu]

Interesting, thanks for the explanation. I'm waay behind with the Daredevil book. I guess he is publicy known to be Matt Murdock by now then.