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Post by imperiusrex on Apr 25, 2006 21:49:08 GMT -5
I do think that not buying it if you're not enjoying it is a much better tactic. Wonder how many completists are grumbling as they take out their wallets every month? If so, you've got no one to blame but yourself... No, you can still blame the writer, the editor, the editor-in-chief, etc. Voting just with your wallet isn’t always clear. It’s usually a buy-it-or-don’t proposition. Can I just buy some team members and not others? Can I vote for some good jokes and condemn others? Can I approve the subplots but disapprove the main story? Can I express the issue’s overall worth by paying just 99¢? Well I said "if you're not enjoying it," which is different than liking it partially, which is the scenario you describe. Then you have to weigh it by your own standards. I for example am not enjoying the subplot, the main plot or the dialogue and I'm not buying just so I can say I have every issue of the Avengers, which some people do. I don't have any problem with complaining about and to these people-- the writer, the editor, the head cheese--however, I just don't think if Marvel's selling 150,000 or more copies that any number of complaints will sway them in the least. You'll notice Dan Slott's Thing campaign isn't about sending Marvel e-mails or letters in favor of the book, it's about getting the numbers up, because all the praise in the world can't save the book, but 10,000 more copies guaranteed into comic shops each month will. So if a signifcant number of fans dropped the book, stopped having it pulled on their lists, within six months the retailers would lower their orders and Marvel would take notice of that. That's my point.
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Post by Yellowjacket on Apr 26, 2006 3:12:42 GMT -5
Yes, with the big titles this will influence the publisher. But for example in case of Thing this won´t work - they stop the series and that´s it.
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teddy
New Avenger
Posts: 2
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Post by teddy on Apr 27, 2006 14:49:07 GMT -5
Okay, now the Illuminati strike back ! hummm !
Please let the dead caractors stay dead ! And if someone dies this time, let him R.I.P. forever !
I got a big title for ya guys : Marvel Universe Crisis ! :-P
Teddy
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Post by Shiryu on Apr 30, 2006 8:31:39 GMT -5
I managed to read the book (downloading it from somewhere ;D) so I can post my comments.
I must say that, overall, I found it a bit boring, and I had the impression that the group was pretty much made to be disbanded, as many have said elsewhere. However, being a group I only knew for half an hour, it didn't really have a big impact on me. I also didn't like Namor saying that he doesn't trust any other Avengers except Iron Man and any other FF except Reed, expecially since he often showen a deep respect for Captain America and had an overall good opinion of Sue.
There were some nice parts though, the ones I liked the most being Namor strongly defending the Hulk and Black Panther reaction to the first meeting. Namor defeating Iron Man under water was cool too, but a bit too easy (that helmet should be tougher to remove).
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Post by The Night Phantom on Apr 30, 2006 20:22:13 GMT -5
I also didn't like Namor saying that he doesn't trust any other Avengers except Iron Man and any other FF except Reed, expecially since he often showen a deep respect for Captain America and had an overall good opinion of Sue. How refreshing: using the “Illuminati one-shot” thread to discuss the Illuminati one-shot! Shiryu, I think you’re putting words in Namor’s mouth. Granted, the words are pretty close to what he said, but I think there is a meaningful if subtle distinction. Here’s the exchange: I think Namor’s just trying to keep the group small; the larger the group, the greater the security risk. Trust is not an absolute. Sue may have Namor’s heart, but I think Namor understands Sue’s heart well enough to justifiably believe that she might not have the same commitment to the cabal’s principles that her more phlegmatic husband does. A similar argument could be made vis-à-vis Cap. Namor didn’t say he mistrusts all the teammates of those present (he didn’t actually get to finish the sentence; and in fact, he doesn’t even say he actually does trust the persons present, either!)—but he is saying that information he shares with Iron Man or Mister Fantastic is not necessarily information that he wants wending its way to, say, girl-crazy teenage Johnny Storm or (Neptune forbid) the Swordsman. And yes...possibly not Sue and Cap, at least in some cases. But even if he had said he mistrusts all his fellows’ teammates...well, Namor’s a hothead who might overstate his case in the heat of debate.
I suppose it’s appropriate that the group debuted in New Avengers and that the one-shot’s full title is New Avengers: Illuminati #1, for there sure are a lot of Avengers in the group! Iron Man is the only character representing the Avengers in this “round table”; but by the time the group dissolves, half of the six members have been Avengers (the others being Mister Fantastic and the Sub-Mariner, natch)...plus another Avenger, the Black Panther, is present at the group’s formation (but declines to join). The Defenders are also well represented, with two of the original, core members (Subby and Doctor Strange) participating. By comparison, the X-Men look under-X-posed, for once! ;D
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Post by spiderwasp on Apr 30, 2006 21:32:35 GMT -5
Shiryu, I think you’re putting words in Namor’s mouth. Granted, the words are pretty close to what he said, but I think there is a meaningful if subtle distinction. Here’s the exchange: Interesting that you say Shiryu is putting words in Namor's mouth and then turn and around and provide exact quotes to prove that's exactly what Namor said. Otherwise, Namor would have said something like "It's not that I don't trust them..." Instead he said "I don't trust..." Ironman filled in with "Teammates" and Namor agreed.
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Post by Shiryu on May 2, 2006 7:09:22 GMT -5
Oh well, that was my interpretation of it. It's also true that Namor's hotheaded behaviour may cause him to make overstatements, everything is possible.
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Post by The Night Phantom on May 2, 2006 17:55:24 GMT -5
Interesting that you say Shiryu is putting words in Namor's mouth and then turn and around and provide exact quotes to prove that's exactly what Namor said. Otherwise, Namor would have said something like "It's not that I don't trust them..." Instead he said "I don't trust..." Ironman filled in with "Teammates" and Namor agreed. Nowhere in the exact quotes did Namor say he agreed. It’s possible he agreed tacitly...or he might have decided to not quibble with Iron Man and just proceed with his demands vis-à-vis the group’s membership and security. I don’t buy the argument that Namor could not have finished his interrupted sentence with anything but “teammates” or some equivalent reference; he could have gone on to say something like, “...noble organizations” or “...high-minded principles and bylaws”: even if Namor did trust everyone currently in the represented teams, he might be unsure of future members (in the Avengers’ case, Doctor Druid comes to mind...). Indeed, Namor wants himself to be the Atlantean representative—not, say, Byrrah or Attuma or some other nasty person who might eventually claim the throne of Atlantis. And again, there are different kinds of trust. Namor might choose to exclude Sue Richards not because he lacks trust in her as a fair and moral champion, but instead because he lacks trust in her to propagate what many would look upon as a dangerous conspiracy. And really, that’s hardly a slight. My point was not that Shiryu’s interpretation was necessarily incorrect; it was that it isn’t necessarily correct either. However, I do think my interpretation does a better job of fitting with Namor’s apparent estimation of characters like Susan and Cap—the sticking point in Shiryu’s initial criticism.
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Post by Shiryu on May 3, 2006 8:33:49 GMT -5
Talking of characters, why would Namor trust Iron Man so much ?
As far as I know, at the time of the first meeting he was still considered Stark's bodyguard, which occasionally gave him some problems with the Avengers, who accused him of putting his responsabilities with Stark in front of those with the team (I remember Cap being angry at him for this, shortly before the Korvac saga). As such, he may not have seemed the most trustsworthy of the Avengers, or of the people in that room.
Is there any story, prior to the time when the 1st flashback is setted, showing some kind of friendship between the two of them (something like Iron Man saving Namor's life or vouching for him) ?
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Post by The Night Phantom on May 3, 2006 21:58:49 GMT -5
Talking of characters, why would Namor trust Iron Man so much ? Good question. For that matter, so far as I know, this would be a first meeting between Namor and Black Bolt—indeed, Black Bolt and any of his fellow cabalists besides Reed Richards. (But maybe Reed vouched for the others, and that’s good enough for BB?) Also, Professor X’s telepathy is offered as a check on the truthfulness of the others—but who’s checking on him? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who watches the—oh, wait, that’s another publisher.
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BigDuke
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 136
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Post by BigDuke on Nov 26, 2006 11:08:56 GMT -5
Yea, the illuminate was almost good, then I remembered that this group was only created last year, retconed poorly into marvel history only to be disbanded now. It made me just throw my hands up and think what is the point behind this crap anymore. I am reading through my Avengers DVD and found historical precedent for the Illuminati concept. In issue 88 Richard and Xavier appear and have (along with an absent Tony Stark) created some kind of prison to deal with the Hulk. Very interesting considering what has happened in the current age. Now, this is not positioned as an Illuminati, and not all of the Illuminati players are present, but it did make me ask myself: Did Bendis know this prior collaboration existed, or is it a case of a blind squirrel finding a nut?
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