THOR #3: God of Thunder vs Man of Iron.

[Doctor Doom]

blackknight said:

The fight that he first appears in is right out in the open, are you going to tell me nobody saw that.

Well, show me where exactly they did? The only person whod id was Ben Urich and he didn't even report it. Unless you want to tell me there was this whole giant off-panel controversy, it didn't happen, however much you think it should have.

Look doom, I don't care if you love 99% of marvel, I don't care if you think Iron Man is the next best thing to sliced bread, but you seem to be trying to deny things that happened in the comics, and well as much as I would love to be able to do that, let me try (bendis never wrote Avengers, bendis never wrote avengers, nope didn't work, curse it all.) Clor was still meant to be passed off as thor, until he did not work so well.

Actually no, it's not that I'm denying what happened in the comic, it's that you're making up a bunch of stuff that DIDN'T. Clor was meant to be passed off as Thor for initial shock to make them surrender. There's NOTHING to indicate that it was ever meant to go beyond that, and several bits of evidence against it- now until that changes, that's the position it seems reasonable to stand by.

And as Doctor Bong said after the big screw up murdering Bill Foster no wonder they didn´t want it to be shown to the public. "We have Thor on our side and look he´s killing people, yay!!"

Maybe. Fact is, they didn't show it so saying "But they WOULD HAVE!" with no evidence is pointless.

And Millar stole Clor from the concept of the Cyborg/Evil Superman at DC anyway.

I'm gonna assume that's a joke, because no one could be that filled with hatred and no one so obviously intelligent could say something that idiotic and believe it.

[Doctor Bong]

I beg to differ: it's not pointless, it's (IMO) plainly a matter of common sense...
It's the simplest explanation, the one that makes more sense.

[balok]

Doc, are your feet wet? Can you see the pyramids in the distance? 'Cause you're deep in denial.

If they didn't intend to pass him off as Thor, there was no reason to make him look like Thor. At all. A simple robot armature would have achieved the same effect. Yet several methods - cloning, a signature weapon, and signature powers - were used to make the creature look and even act like Thor. Tony even said they created Clor because they wanted the psychological advantage of having Thor on their team.

To suggest that they never intended to use such a costly and intricate creation past one battle is ludicrous. It never got used again because it failed, catastrophically. And when they finally brought it back out of storage, Hercules tore it apart.

If they don't plan to use it at some future point, why are the remains stored at Camp Hammond? Why not destroy them?

[Black Knight]

Well, show me where exactly they did? The only person whod id was Ben Urich and he didn't even report it. Unless you want to tell me there was this whole giant off-panel controversy, it didn't happen, however much you think it should have.

Please point out where the public did not see this. You are assuming they didn't, which is highly doubtful. You are saying that in all the blocks, not one single civilian was there. Please, that is funny at best.

Actually no, it's not that I'm denying what happened in the comic, it's that you're making up a bunch of stuff that DIDN'T. Clor was meant to be passed off as Thor for initial shock to make them surrender. There's NOTHING to indicate that it was ever meant to go beyond that, and several bits of evidence against it- now until that changes, that's the position it seems reasonable to stand by.

There is no evidence against it not being passed off, and in fact they where trying to repair him, so they could.

I am sorry but you seem to be making a lot of assumptions and filling a lot of blanks with your own ideas.
On a side note that is what a lot of fans of Bendis have gotten into doing, filling in the blanks in stories to try and make sense of them. Oh well.
Later

[von Bek]

docdoom said:

And Millar stole Clor from the concept of the Cyborg/Evil Superman at DC anyway.

I'm gonna assume that's a joke, because no one could be that filled with hatred and no one so obviously intelligent could say something that idiotic and believe it.

Filled with hatred? WTF? Sorry Doc, if that was a joke I really didn´t get it.
And asking how someone so obviously intelligent could say something that idiotic is probably some clever rhetorical technique you just learned on the internet.
OK, back to Clor and Cyborg Superman, when Cyborg Superman debuted he was a DC comics Reed Richards knock off that somehow transported his mind to machines and got hold of kryptonian technology and Superman´s DNA, creating a Cyborg with powers similar to Superman. First he claimed to be ther real Superman back from the dead, but was later revealed to be a murdering villain. So, does that ring a bell? Any similarities to Clor, maybe? Hallo...
And I´m not saying Mark Millar is evil or that I hate him for using the same concept with Thor, I just think it didn´t work so well at Marvel, but actually many CW ideas got stolen from DC books.

[Doctor Doom]

balok said:

If they didn't intend to pass him off as Thor, there was no reason to make him look like Thor. At all. A simple robot armature would have achieved the same effect. Yet several methods - cloning, a signature weapon, and signature powers - were used to make the creature look and even act like Thor. Tony even said they created Clor because they wanted the psychological advantage of having Thor on their team.

Of course it was. He was absolutely intended to pass off as Thor for shock value, because that battle was *supposed to be the end of the war*. Once Clor had shocked them and defeated them, they would be too stunned to properly resist, then the civil war is over, they're taken in and Clor is quietly dismantled.

To suggest that they never intended to use such a costly and intricate creation past one battle is ludicrous. I

Why, when the war would only LAST one battle? To suggest they planned to use it to end the war is not at all ludicrous.

If they don't plan to use it at some future point, why are the remains stored at Camp Hammond? Why not destroy them?

Don't confuse the actions and motives of the pro-registration cause during the Civil War to those of Camp Hammond after it.

Please point out where the public did not see this. You are assuming they didn't, which is highly doubtful. You are saying that in all the blocks, not one single civilian was there. Please, that is funny at best.

Funny? It's an industrial plant owned by Stark in the middle of nowhere. Who on Earth is going to be there? I mean, besides the location, it's surrounded by SHIELD agents making perimeter, not to mention air forces, and you think people can just amble in? I think you're the one making the ludicrous claim here.

There is no evidence against it not being passed off, and in fact they where trying to repair him, so they could.

Again, because the war is not over. If they intended to permanently pass him off as Thor, it would be idiotic to tell everyone on their side, wouldn't it?

I am sorry but you seem to be making a lot of assumptions and filling a lot of blanks with your own ideas.

Says the guy who believes a civilian wandered in, saw the fake Thor, told everyone, then it was never ever mentioned anywhere.

Filled with hatred? WTF? Sorry Doc, if that was a joke I really didn´t get it.

I call it as I see it, and you seem to hate modern Marvel so much you make up things or else blatantly lie to suit your cause.

OK, back to Clor and Cyborg Superman, when Cyborg Superman debuted he was a DC comics Reed Richards knock off that somehow transported his mind to machines and got hold of kryptonian technology and Superman´s DNA, creating a Cyborg with powers similar to Superman. First he claimed to be ther real Superman back from the dead, but was later revealed to be a murdering villain. So, does that ring a bell? Any similarities to Clor, maybe? Hallo...

...

...No really, this is too funny for words.

Let's be clear about this.

An evil cyborg of a hero is such a totally innovative, incredibly revolutionary idea that the mere idea of making it is absolutely ASTONISHING, and there's no Earthly way it could be done more than once without being a rip-off?

I don't know what's funnier, this claim or the fact that you're the same guy who says there's no real similarities between Kirby's Fourth World and Star Wars.

And I´m not saying Mark Millar is evil or that I hate him for using the same concept with Thor, I just think it didn´t work so well at Marvel, but actually many CW ideas got stolen from DC books.

Well igoring that the idea sucked at both companies.... please, do enlighten us about some more of these stolen ideas. (Of course, let's ignore DC who actually created a crossover solely to try and ape Marvel, as admitted by an editor afterwards). I'd be very interested. Let me guess, clearly having 42 is just a total rip off of Arkham Asylum? This should be interesting.

[Black Knight]

Of course it was. He was absolutely intended to pass off as Thor for shock value, because that battle was *supposed to be the end of the war*. Once Clor had shocked them and defeated them, they would be too stunned to properly resist, then the civil war is over, they're taken in and Clor is quietly dismantled.

Wow, that is alot of assumption and reading into the story. Sorry, but I don't buy that. Try something that actually happened in the book, instead of something you assumed.

Why, when the war would only LAST one battle? To suggest they planned to use it to end the war is not at all ludicrous.

Again, more assumptions from you. Most of what you are basing this on is assumption.

Funny? It's an industrial plant owned by Stark in the middle of nowhere. Who on Earth is going to be there? I mean, besides the location, it's surrounded by SHIELD agents making perimeter, not to mention air forces, and you think people can just amble in? I think you're the one making the ludicrous claim here.

Huh, it looked like a city to me, oh well..

Again, because the war is not over. If they intended to permanently pass him off as Thor, it would be idiotic to tell everyone on their side, wouldn't it?

When did they tell everyone. really I am interested.

Says the guy who believes a civilian wandered in, saw the fake Thor, told everyone, then it was never ever mentioned anywhere.

I said that assuming there was no civilians in a few city blocks is assumeing a lot, and I stick by that. You can think whatever you want.

I call it as I see it, and you seem to hate modern Marvel so much you make up things or else blatantly lie to suit your cause.

Actually I have loved serveral books, Omega Flight, Thor, Hulk. The problem here is you can't seem to except that others think differently then you.

I understand you love Iron Man, and think that JMS wrote him wrong, and that Thor was over the top. Great those are your opinion. I think the major problem is you are using your assumptions, not the story to prove your opinion.

But anyway, I am done, we can agree to disagree and move on, I leave that up to you.

[bendisbites]

blackknight said:

Huh, it looked like a city to me, oh well..

Even if it wasn't, it's irrelevant.
We have these things called satellites, which when properly focused can see virtually anywhere. And in the marvel universe I would imagine any number of groups, beings and foreign influences have them as well. And they would be of the same high tech capability as the rest of the MU.
And a giant superhuman war would probably get some attention and someone would get footage of it. And a foreign power or villain might have some propaganda use for it. And if it ever popped up in one place, then someone would hack it and place it online, much like the Saddam Hussein hanging video.
At the very least, the possibility would exist and thus it can't be ruled out that someone would get this footage and use it in some form.
So being outside of a city is no real protection from prying eyes of the world.
Anybody want to give me their address so I can look them up on google earth?

[von Bek]

docdoom said:

I call it as I see it, and you seem to hate modern Marvel so much you make up things or else blatantly lie to suit your cause.

Doom, calm down. Take a deeeep breath and let me conduct you back to reality. I don´t hate modern Marvel, I even like some books. And I don´t have a 'cause', nor am I lying or making things up to suit it. Even when I post my disagreements with Joe Q´s regime it´s pretty unlikely that he will ever read it or change his mind because of my posts.
And I don´t think he will send you the check you´re expecting for defending modern Marvel with such a passion either.

docdoom said:

...No really, this is too funny for words.

Let's be clear about this.

An evil cyborg of a hero is such a totally innovative, incredibly revolutionary idea that the mere idea of making it is absolutely ASTONISHING, and there's no Earthly way it could be done more than once without being a rip-off?

Calm down Doom, deeep breath, remember? The idea of a cyborg created using technology and the hero´s DNA for the biological parts was used in the Reign of the Supermen many years before CW. If you think Dan Jurgens used a time machine to travel to 2006 and steal the concept from CW, Ok, it´s unlikely but maybe you´re right, just stay calm, all right?

docdoom said:

Well igoring that the idea sucked at both companies....

I said it sucked at Marvel...

docdoom said:

...please, do enlighten us about some more of these stolen ideas. (Of course, let's ignore DC who actually created a crossover solely to try and ape Marvel, as admitted by an editor afterwards). I'd be very interested. Let me guess, clearly having 42 is just a total rip off of Arkham Asylum? This should be interesting.

Suicide Squad and the Thunderbolts. Hero vs. hero, one with the government and the other as an outlaw (Dark Knight Returns). There are many more, but I don´t have that much time now. Just stay calm, ok?

[Doctor Doom]

vonbek said:

Calm down Doom, deeep breath, remember? The idea of a cyborg created using technology and the hero´s DNA for the biological parts was used in the Reign of the Supermen many years before CW. If you think Dan Jurgens used a time machine to travel to 2006 and steal the concept from CW, Ok, it´s unlikely but maybe you´re right, just stay calm, all right?

Of course- and again, I know this may be wildly outside your thought parameters given that you have thus far reacted to every single situation with an "either extreme" attitude, it is of course possible that since the idea is incredibly simple and basic and since I myself could have thought of it without difficult despite not being the most creative person in the world.... it was simply used two different ways in two different places? And thus no one stole it at all?

I said it sucked at Marvel...

And I say it sucked at both. Until SInestro Corps, of course.

docdoom said:

Suicide Squad and the Thunderbolts.

Okay, but you can't pin this on civil war, if you wanna call them that you have to look to WAY before civil war. They've been villains pretending to be/forced to work as heroes for a very long time.

Hero vs. hero, one with the government and the other as an outlaw (Dark Knight Returns).

Again, such a pathetically basic idea on it's simplest level that- and I know this may utterly rock you to your core- it's incredibly easy to come up with without stealing.

[von Bek]

docdoom said:

Okay, but you can't pin this on civil war, if you wanna call them that you have to look to WAY before civil war. They've been villains pretending to be/forced to work as heroes for a very long time.

Just wanted to point out that the Thunderbolts were very different from Suicide Squad before CW. Ex-villains they might have been, but they weren´t being forced by the government to do anything, in fact in vol. I they were disguised as heroes, the Suicide Squad never pretended to be heroes. After CW both concepts became very similar. And T´bolts under Ellis and Deodato is not bad, so you don´t have to restart your 'you hate modern Marvel' argument.

[balok]

docdoom said:

Of course it was. He was absolutely intended to pass off as Thor for shock value, because that battle was *supposed to be the end of the war*. Once Clor had shocked them and defeated them, they would be too stunned to properly resist, then the civil war is over, they're taken in and Clor is quietly dismantled.

Speculation, at best. You cannot know this because events did not unfold this way.

docdoom said:

Why, when the war would only LAST one battle? To suggest they planned to use it to end the war is not at all ludicrous.

To suggest it, perhaps not. To state it as truth is unwarranted. And your suggestions have been countered, effectively, by various folks - but you cling to them regardless.

docdoom said:

Don't confuse the actions and motives of the pro-registration cause during the Civil War to those of Camp Hammond after it.

They're largely the same people! Tony runs SHIELD, Hank works at Camp Hammond. Whether they'll reactivate him now that Thor has returned is questionable - but I think its entirely reasonable to assert that they mothballed the parts for reactivation at some future point, before they knew of Thor's return. They could have destroyed those parts. They didn't. Why?

[Doctor Doom]

blackknight said:

Wow, that is alot of assumption and reading into the story. Sorry, but I don't buy that. Try something that actually happened in the book, instead of something you assumed.

A lot of reading into it?

Okay, so according to you, Iron Man surrounded the site, piled it on with heroes, took out the teleporters... an believed half of Cap's people would be gone and the war would be over? All the evidence indicates they planned the war to end right then, right there.

Again, more assumptions from you. Most of what you are basing this on is assumption.

As opposed to the guy who says they wanted to play it as the real Thor permanently (Supported by nothing), lots of civilians saw it (supported by nothing) and the only reason they didn't was because it went wrong. (Supported by nothing)

Huh, it looked like a city to me, oh well..

Apparantly the sign saying "Geffen Meyers Industrial Plant" escaped your notice then? Or the Stark Industires sign?

When did they tell everyone. really I am interested.

Well let's take a wild looksee:

-Absolutely NONE of them are even slightly surprised when Clor appears
-They display NO surprise when clor is turned off by Reed
-They later refer to him as a Thor clone or Thor cyborgh.

But I'm sure that you believe clearly they were told it was Thor coming back and only told otherwise later, despite this defying all evidence, right?

I said that assuming there was no civilians in a few city blocks is assumeing a lot, and I stick by that. You can think whatever you want.

Well since it is most definitely 100% beyond doubt NOT any city block ,let alone a few....

Actually I have loved serveral books, Omega Flight, Thor, Hulk. The problem here is you can't seem to except that others think differently then you.

I was not addressing you with that comment, I would not do this.

I understand you love Iron Man, and think that JMS wrote him wrong, and that Thor was over the top

For the record yet again, I prefer Cap *and* Thor as characters.

reat those are your opinion. I think the major problem is you are using your assumptions, not the story to prove your opinion.

Well you seem to believe the story featured Geffen Meyers Industirla plant in the middle of a city so I'm not sure I'm the one making more radical leaps in logic.

Even if it wasn't, it's irrelevant.
We have these things called satellites, which when properly focused can see virtually anywhere. And in the marvel universe I would imagine any number of groups, beings and foreign influences have them as well. And they would be of the same high tech capability as the rest of the MU.
And a giant superhuman war would probably get some attention and someone would get footage of it. And a foreign power or villain might have some propaganda use for it. And if it ever popped up in one place, then someone would hack it and place it online, much like the Saddam Hussein hanging video.
At the very least, the possibility would exist and thus it can't be ruled out that someone would get this footage and use it in some form.
So being outside of a city is no real protection from prying eyes of the world.

Okay. And you know what, that makes sense. But until you can point out to me somewhere, ANYWHERE, in any comic, where Thor was shown to the outside world as Clor... that frankly doesn't matter and adds up to little more than speculation.

Speculation, at best. You cannot know this because events did not unfold this way.

My case is certainmy more likely than the alternative, given their utter lack of concern for Clor and the total lack of anyone mentioning plans to keep him permanently.

To suggest it, perhaps not. To state it as truth is unwarranted. And your suggestions have been countered, effectively, by various folks - but you cling to them regardless.

Well, they haven't been countered at all is the problem...

They're largely the same people! Tony runs SHIELD, Hank works at Camp Hammond. Whether they'll reactivate him now that Thor has returned is questionable - but I think its entirely reasonable to assert that they mothballed the parts for reactivation at some future point, before they knew of Thor's return. They could have destroyed those parts. They didn't. Why?

Because Henry Gyrich is in chrarge of Camp Hammond and we've clearly seen he disagrees with Tony Stark *AND* we've seen Reed Richards and Hank Pym disagree with how the Camp is being run. Attributing what he does to them is like attributing what Frank Castle does to Cap. They may have roughly the same ends, but they are NOT the same people.

[bendisbites]

I don't have the book in front of me so this is from memory... Doesn't Clor pop up in the big civil war climax in the heart of midtown manhattan?
Virtually every street in new york now has some sort of camera system and news helicopters even if evacuated to a safe distance could record the fight.
At one point citizens get close enough to stop Cap and Iron Man. I have to imagine they saw Clor as well.
Hercules rips apart Clor and shows he's a machine?
So what?
i would say that 60% of folks in the MU don't know for sure that Thor is flesh and blood. Him being a robot makes just as much sense as a Norse God rationally.
I know that he wears a pointy helmet has a hammer and big shoulders. So just by having Thor's appearance in midtown manhattan wouldn't at least some folks civilians and heroes both just assume he was the real deal?
was he revealed to be a robot/android to everyone on both sides of the battle in the midst of CW 4?
I haven't read it since it came out and probably never will again, so I don't recall.
But his appearance is certainly enough to confuse folks, for sure...

[balok]

docdoom said:

My case is certainmy more likely than the alternative, given their utter lack of concern for Clor and the total lack of anyone mentioning plans to keep him permanently.

Nope, actually, it's not. Your assertions are balanced by the simple fact that there's no reason to make it look like Thor unless they intended to pass it off as Thor, and there's no reason to make it at all unless they felt they needed it long term. Such a thing is deeply expensive to make, and a terrible risk given how Pym's only other experiment in AI turned out. You may hold the opinion that your view is more likely but you cannot state it as fact.

docdoom said:

Well, they haven't been countered at all is the problem...

Sure they have. Go reread the thread, without bias if you can. Your arguments have been refuted by myself and others, successfully. That you refuse to see it is merely confirmation bias.

docdoom said:

Because Henry Gyrich is in chrarge of Camp Hammond and we've clearly seen he disagrees with Tony Stark *AND* we've seen Reed Richards and Hank Pym disagree with how the Camp is being run. Attributing what he does to them is like attributing what Frank Castle does to Cap. They may have roughly the same ends, but they are NOT the same people.

I think it's a real stretch to blame every wrong thing the Initiative does on Gyrich's admittedly malign influence, and at the same time credit Tony Stark with every right thing it does. Tony could demand the destruction of the parts and could take it to the press, if he cared to. As far as Reed Richards and Hank Pym are concerned - if they disagree with how Camp Hammond is run but do nothing about it, then I have lost still more respect for them, for heroes oppose evil when they see it. Pym, especially, I hold in low regard. He is worthy only of contempt, now: a pathetic shell of what he once was who must take drugs to cope with the misery that is his life, and that is largely of his own making.

[Doctor Doom]

balok said:

Nope, actually, it's not. Your assertions are balanced by the simple fact that there's no reason to make it look like Thor unless they intended to pass it off as Thor, and there's no reason to make it at all unless they felt they needed it long term. Such a thing is deeply expensive to make, and a terrible risk given how Pym's only other experiment in AI turned out. You may hold the opinion that your view is more likely but you cannot state it as fact.

Nor can you state YOUr view is fact.

Your assertions are balanced by the simple fact that there is not *one single instance* or Iron Man or any other pro-regger telling everyone this is Thor and is going to be Thor on a permanent basis, and by the fact that they tell absolutely everyone in their own force it's not Thor.

The idea that it was made short term to win the civil war is FAR more likely than that it was intended to be Thor long term but they decided to tell people it wasn't and never EVER mentioned this big plan.

Sure they have. Go reread the thread, without bias if you can. Your arguments have been refuted by myself and others, successfully. That you refuse to see it is merely confirmation bias.

Whereas you, a pillar of impartiality as always, do not display ANY confirmation bias at all when you say the guys who agree with you won... Where's the rolling eyes smiley again?

docdoom said:

I think it's a real stretch to blame every wrong thing the Initiative does on Gyrich's admittedly malign influence, and at the same time credit Tony Stark with every right thing it does. Tony could demand the destruction of the parts and could take it to the press, if he cared to.

Hardly. What exactly is he meant to take to the press when it's kept from him?

As far as Reed Richards and Hank Pym are concerned - if they disagree with how Camp Hammond is run but do nothing about it, then I have lost still more respect for them, for heroes oppose evil when they see it.

Leaving aside that what's happening is questionable but far from evil, Reed Richards *IS* doing something about it.

don't have the book in front of me so this is from memory... Doesn't Clor pop up in the big civil war climax in the heart of midtown manhattan?
Virtually every street in new york now has some sort of camera system and news helicopters even if evacuated to a safe distance could record the fight.
At one point citizens get close enough to stop Cap and Iron Man. I have to imagine they saw Clor as well.
Hercules rips apart Clor and shows he's a machine?
So what?
i would say that 60% of folks in the MU don't know for sure that Thor is flesh and blood. Him being a robot makes just as much sense as a Norse God rationally.
I know that he wears a pointy helmet has a hammer and big shoulders. So just by having Thor's appearance in midtown manhattan wouldn't at least some folks civilians and heroes both just assume he was the real deal?
was he revealed to be a robot/android to everyone on both sides of the battle in the midst of CW 4?
I haven't read it since it came out and probably never will again, so I don't recall.
But his appearance is certainly enough to confuse folks, for sure..

Confuse them, maybe. Sure he shows up in the big battle at the end. But ignoring that given the chaos, the suddeness, the heroes everywhere and the whole "city being blown up thing" means it's unlikely anyone will stop and say "Huh. It's Thor", by this point all plans and strategy had been cast to the wins in the simple need for victory from both sides. There mere fact that Clor was a RESERVIST rather than a front liner would indicate they did not intend to showboat him, and this is long after whatever plans they made pre-Geffen Meyers go awry.

And everyone on Iron Man's side clearly knew it was a fake. The anti-reggers guessed it almost immediately anyway, and even if some didn't listen, it was confirmed by the Invisible Woman when she defected.

If they *DID* intend to pass it off as Thor while never ever mentioning this in any book and telling anyone who asks it's fake... they did an absolutely awful job of it. Hence perhaps why no book remotely supports this contention.

[bendisbites]

so you're saying it MAY have been a confusion tactic.
so the story isn't entirely clear?
I mean you may be 100% right in everything you say, but do you allow for the possibility that a) the story isn't entirely clear and the reader's interpretation is allowable and b) in the confusion and chaos some may have still thought it was Thor?--I mean haven't bad guys, shapeshifters, clones, robots caused confusion using this very tactic (and even currently in marvel books?).
After all you can't be sure it's not the one true Thor immediately, right?
How many times has a hero been impersonated only to appear at the last minute in a big climatic battle?
Just saying if someone shows up on the field of battle, you kind of have to assume they are who they appear to be and act with the appropriate caution.
and saving your big gun for last is often a strong military tactic. you sacrifice smaller players to gauge the enemy's power.
then you bring your full power to bear as a surprise and overwhelm the opponent who have lulled into a false sense of security.
so there could be a valid reason Clor/Thor was held in reserve.

[balok]

docdoom said:

Your assertions are balanced by the simple fact that there is not *one single instance* or Iron Man or any other pro-regger telling everyone this is Thor and is going to be Thor on a permanent basis, and by the fact that they tell absolutely everyone in their own force it's not Thor.

The idea that it was made short term to win the civil war is FAR more likely than that it was intended to be Thor long term but they decided to tell people it wasn't and never EVER mentioned this big plan.

Then why make it look like Thor at all? You haven't answered that, and you certainly must in order to claim that it is "far more likely." But who cares? This argument has gotten past ridiculous - you'll believe whatever you like, regardless of refutation or counterargument, and it's tedious to continue a debate in that circumstance.

docdoom said:

Hence perhaps why no book remotely supports this contention.

The continued existence of the parts at Camp Hammond supports the contention that the government has plans for it, as has been pointed out to you already.

[Doctor Doom]

balok said:

Then why make it look like Thor at all? You haven't answered that, and you certainly must in order to claim that it is "far more likely."

Yes, I have. From like post 2 of this argument. IT's very simple; if the anti-reggers think Thor is there and on the pro-reg side, then they will be terrified and it provides a great weapon which allows the pro-reggers to win the war in one fell stroke, more than if it were unleashed just as a normal robot.

But who cares? This argument has gotten past ridiculous - you'll believe whatever you like, regardless of refutation or counterargument, and it's tedious to continue a debate in that circumstance.

Except again, you're the one making a claim who cannot find a single sentence, statement, question, ANYTHING, in any book, which says they planned to do with Clor what you claimed.

The continued existence of the parts at Camp Hammond supports the contention that the government has plans for it, as has been pointed out to you already.

What is happening at Camp Hammond is NOT what was planned by Tony/Reed/Hank- in fact, those are virtually the exact words used by Hank, as has been pointed out to YOU already/

[Black Knight]

Yes, I have. From like post 2 of this argument. IT's very simple; if the anti-reggers think Thor is there and on the pro-reg side, then they will be terrified and it provides a great weapon which allows the pro-reggers to win the war in one fell stroke, more than if it were unleashed just as a normal robot.

Well, this is big assumption isn't it.. Something that you have been making a lot of.

Except again, you're the one making a claim who cannot find a single sentence, statement, question, ANYTHING, in any book, which says they planned to do with Clor what you claimed.

That is all your arguements have been doom, one assumption right after another.

Let it go everyone...

[bendisbites]

I agree.
I have found enlightenment and seek no more strife.
I'm throwing down flower petals and gently shaking a tambourine.
If I can find inner peace even with Bendis writing Avengers and Dane Cook opening a movie this weekend then surely we all can.

[Nutcase65]

docdoom said:

It was clearly intended to appear as Thor for shock value in his debut scene.

put it in your own perspective Doomsie. If someone other than Doom were to try to use a copy of Doom to acheive any end. There would be Doom to pay.

I think with this incarnation of Thor. He is very much seeped in his own godhood, so if someone proffers a flase god, the must likewise pay the price.

[goldenfist]

Expect the Thor clone to show up again, Cause if the real Thor
confronts him it's gonna be hammer swinging fight.

[balok]

I finally managed to get hold of a copy of issue #3. Extremely decompressed; very little story advancement, but that is typical of JMS' comic style. He also doesn't miss an opportunity to illustrate his view of Tony, and he sort of makes Tony look like a punk - perfectly happy to bully Thor until Thor makes it clear what a very poor idea that would be, then backing off and looking for an alternative solution. But it seems... odd... that Thor would threaten ordinary, innocent people. Unless his threat was more subtle, and directed at Tony's government bosses only. One might infer that from the art if not from the dialog. It seems to me that JMS holds the current version of Tony in deep disdain. For that alone I'll continue to read the book.

The art was... okay, I guess. I like smoother, less blocky art but I can't argue that the art style doesn't reflect the characters here.

[goldenfist]

The comic book store owner I talk to was glad that Thor kicked
Iron Man's armor butt.