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Post by goldenfist on Aug 23, 2007 15:34:07 GMT -5
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Post by Shiryu on Aug 23, 2007 16:27:44 GMT -5
Yeah! ;D
I have a feeling it will end with Thor forgiving Tony or admitting that there was some reason behind the cloning, but nevertheless it's nice to see some payback! I wonder when he will know about Cap...
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Post by uberwolf on Aug 23, 2007 20:15:51 GMT -5
Thor seems to be a little more powerful than before or Iron Man's been buying his suit parts in the bargain bin. No words or sound effects. They don't add them in for the previews or just don't bother with words anymore?
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Post by Doctor Doom on Aug 24, 2007 6:54:07 GMT -5
Don't put the words in early previews. Hmm, much as I love Thor kicking ass, I do have a problem. It's long established that lightning bolts- even THOR'S lightning bolts- just make Iron Man evens stronger. Everyone remember their Avengers #220?
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Post by balok on Aug 24, 2007 7:54:23 GMT -5
True, but even Tony's armor has to have a point past which it can't story any more energy. Whether Thor can generate and deliver that much power, well, we'll see. Also, most of Tony's weapons won't bother Thor much. I gotta figure on Thor winning this one. I wonder if it concerns Tony that a number of his old friends - like the Hulk and Thor - have legitimate grievances against him that have led to death and suffering for a lot of folks (in the case of the Hulk) and a beatdown (in the case of Thor). I wonder if they simply haven't added the words yet, or if this is "ultimate decompressed storytelling" where the writer doesn't actually contribute!
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Post by von Bek on Aug 24, 2007 9:00:59 GMT -5
I wonder if it concerns Tony that a number of his old friends - like the Hulk and Thor - have legitimate grievances against him that have led to death and suffering for a lot of folks (in the case of the Hulk) and a beatdown (in the case of Thor). I wouldn´t call Hulk Tony´s friend, but Thor was his closest friend among the Avengers. I want to see how JMS will resolve this situation, I´m liking his work on Thor so far.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Aug 24, 2007 9:27:55 GMT -5
I doubt the Hulk thing concerns him since he's being blamed for what is clearly not his fault.
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Post by bendisbites on Aug 24, 2007 12:28:54 GMT -5
Don't put the words in early previews. Hmm, much as I love Thor kicking ass, I do have a problem. It's long established that lightning bolts- even THOR'S lightning bolts- just make Iron Man evens stronger. Everyone remember their Avengers #220? you're quoting early issues?? in any case, lightning is more than just electricity. it also has concussive force, I believe equal to several hundred pounds of dynamite and I imagine Thor can control lightning to the point where it could strike right next to IM without actually hitting him, thus giving it kick of a huge powerful bomb without actually charging his armor. after all we see the buildup and the strike but we don't see where it precisely hits. I'll admit it's not likely what they planned, but my explanation would be good enough for a no-prize.
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Post by balok on Aug 24, 2007 14:41:59 GMT -5
I doubt the Hulk thing concerns him since he's being blamed for what is clearly not his fault. He bears shared responsibility with the other members of the Illuminati. If they were really that afraid of the Hulk they should have just launched him into the Sun. My guess is, they did what they did so that World War Hulk could be an event, albeit not on the scale of Civil War. I.E. a simple and crude moneymaking ploy.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Aug 24, 2007 14:48:36 GMT -5
He bears shared responsibility with the other members of the Illuminati. They're being targetted for blowing up Sakaar; that they did not do. Hardly, because while they fear his powwer they aren't monsters- instead they launched him to a world he could be happy and at peace- finally alone, as he always said he wanted.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Aug 24, 2007 16:36:50 GMT -5
www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Thor/03/Prev/Thor03_preview.htmlNEW Thor preview. YEs, Iron Man acts jerkish and half evil as he always does when JMS writes him but I must say, overall it's an improvement on how JMS usually writes him. Can't wait for Thor to kick some ass. "Iron Man. I would have words with thee."
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Post by thew40 on Aug 24, 2007 20:05:25 GMT -5
Iron Man still comes off as evil here to me. "You're with the government or against it." Ugh. Come on, JMS! Be better! Be like Millar!
But . . . other than that . . . it's so on!
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Post by uberwolf on Aug 24, 2007 21:49:00 GMT -5
But . . . other than that . . . it's so on! Oh yes indeedy! I still can't get over Chunky Thor, but I've been waiting to see this!
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Post by Tana Nile on Aug 24, 2007 23:00:55 GMT -5
I think Thor's response is wildly exaggerated!
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Post by Doctor Doom on Aug 25, 2007 6:19:34 GMT -5
Iron Man still comes off as evil here to me. "You're with the government or against it." Ugh. Come on, JMS! Be better! Be like Millar! Well clearly. I'm not even going to try to defend his characterization here, that's just not Tony Stark, not at all. It was passable until he started ranting about the government. But then, that's how JMS has written him for a while. On the bright side, JMS is one of like two writers who actively write a villainous Tony, while Bendis, the Knaufs, Fraction (on "The Order") and Brubaker all write heroic Tonys like Millar's. Well, Bendis's wavers a bit but still. d**n right!
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Post by goldenfist on Aug 25, 2007 12:14:10 GMT -5
Iron Man should'nt even show his face to Thor at all.
Thor is a god and Gods are above people, What's next Iron Man is going to make GOD himself register.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Aug 25, 2007 12:23:37 GMT -5
I think Thor's response is wildly exaggerated! You've been waiting a while to say that, haven't you, Tana...? ;D
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Post by Doctor Doom on Aug 25, 2007 13:30:54 GMT -5
Iron Man should'nt even show his face to Thor at all. Thor is a god and Gods are above people, What's next Iron Man is going to make GOD himself register. Well, Ares registered so he's made a good start. Nevertheless, it's a dangerous way of thinking to think "He's a god, therefore he's above everyone." Thinking like that lead to The Reigning.
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Post by balok on Aug 25, 2007 15:34:08 GMT -5
JMS is a very liberal individual, in the political sense. He, personally, would consider the SHRA in much the same way I do, as a grave, unprovoked and unneeded imposition on personal freedoms. As the chief public face of the SHRA and the Initiative, Tony's going to be written like an a**hole whenever JMS puts pen to paper. You can explore JMS's politics (if you care to) by checking out bonus material on Babylon 5 discs. That said, Tony has *always* been arrogant, and recent events have left him convinced that he made the right choice supporting the SHRA, so it's not surprising to see him dripping with arrogance here. Because Marvel doesn't want to kill Tony, he'll come out of this just fine, but in a realistic confrontation, he'd likely die. You don't do the things he did to someone who regards himself as a god, and has the power to back it up, without catching a legendary beating for it. What I'd like to see happen is for Thor to give sanctuary in Asgard to any hero who wishes to oppose Tony, and then we can have Civil War 2: Payback's a Female Dog!
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Post by Doctor Doom on Aug 25, 2007 16:40:12 GMT -5
Rubbish. I'm liberal, I don';t consider it that, and Mark Millar is just about the most liberal man in comics.
The SHRA probably exhibits more traits of a Democratic/left wing bill than a Republican/ right wing bill.
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Post by balok on Aug 25, 2007 18:29:47 GMT -5
Well, it's liberal in the sense that traditionally liberals favor large and intrusive government that does too much for people, but they generally also respect civil liberties more than do conservatives (at least, modern conservatives). I'd guess that JMS regards it as a civil liberties issue. As I said, check out the B5 material where some of the commentaries explain how his politics shaped the show. Theres' no questioning that he's a liberal, so I suppose not all liberals agree with you, Doc.
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Post by Tana Nile on Aug 25, 2007 19:58:09 GMT -5
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Post by balok on Aug 26, 2007 8:56:46 GMT -5
Very nice recall, Tana!
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Post by Doctor Doom on Aug 26, 2007 11:33:20 GMT -5
Hardly.
I don't see how that changes anything, there is NO way a well written Thor and a well written Iron Man would face off in this manner. JMS has been, since the start, the single most biased writer on CIvil War, moreso even than Jenkins, that much has been evident from his FF and ASM.
That's simply not the way the Iron Man I read about would talk, and not the way the Thor who I read a few hundred issues of would react.
Contrast it with IM's appearance in NOva where he acts rationally, reasonably, gives Nova more than a fair chance and in general, acts like he... y'know, does.
I find it ironic that those who sanction the worst mischaracterizations- this preview- are also those who complain the most that Marvel don't understand their characters!
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Post by Doctor Bong on Aug 26, 2007 11:43:07 GMT -5
Once more, Doom, we'll simply have to agree to disagree, 'cause we're never going to see eye to eye on this issue... it takes all kinds to keep this mudball going, I say po-tay-to, you say po-ta-toh, and so forth... If we weren't as stubborn and as passionate about it as we are, we'd probably have to conclude that the truth lies somewhere in the middle... But, since we are... have at thee, base villian...!!!
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Post by balok on Aug 26, 2007 13:08:45 GMT -5
Iron Man has always taken an arrogant approach to others - that goes all the way back to how he handled the Armor Wars. Granted JMS doesn't like what others have had the character do and that reflects in his writing, but I contend more as an exaggeration of his current set of unwholesome character traits rather than an outright mischaracterization.
And Thor most certainly DOES have a legitimate and serious beef and with Iron Man's role in the creation of Clor, its misrepresentation as the actual Thor (which amounts to at least identity theft) and its subsequent manslaughter (or even murder, if one determines that Hank, Reed and Tony should have known better. That's probably 500 IQ points across a wide array of scientific and engineering lore there - yes, they should have known better). As I have said before, the minimum I would expect of someone who did that to me would be: (1) destruction of the clone, (2) a public explanation and apology from all involved, (3) a written apology from all involved. And at the end of it, we'd be done - not friends any longer, ever again. If I had the power to force the issue, I would do these things myself. A person's identity is one of the few things they have that's hard to take from them. Tony, Hank, and Reed did Thor very wrong.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Aug 26, 2007 13:21:13 GMT -5
The problem, Balok, lies in just that. If Iron Manwas written REMOTELY has he has been in... oh, Civil War proper, World War Hulk, or Iron Man, or Captain America, or Nova, or even Mighty Avengers, New Avengers or The Order, then the conversation would have gone more like this:
Iron Man: "Thor! My God, I prayed the reports were true! You're back! How....?"
Thor: "..."
Iron Man: ..."Thor? What's.... oh."
Thor: "I know what hath transpired in my absence, Iron Man."
Iron Man: "Thor, please... I think I understand. let me explain."
Iron Man would then give a full, reasoned account of why he did what he did and given what we've seen of him, almost certain a full apology as well and an acknowledgement that it was probably wrong, but he hopes Thor will understand why he did it. That's just the way he's acting, he explains, he justifies, he tries to defuse the situation.
Then he'd work THAT out before he even mentioned "Move your ass out of Oklahoma." Which, really, he is perfectly within his rights to demand.
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Post by spiderwasp on Aug 26, 2007 16:02:25 GMT -5
Hardly. I don't see how that changes anything, there is NO way a well written Thor and a well written Iron Man would face off in this manner. I couldn't agree more because a well written Iron Man wouldn't have created a clone of Thor in the first place so the face off wouldn't exist. A well written Iron Man wouldn't have done half the things he's done over the past year. Foolish me, I thought we were limited by what the characters actually do toward our "Comic book" reality. If we are now going to pretend things don't count if we perceive them as "Not well written," I'm returning all my Bendis books to my dealer and demanding a refund on the basis that they don't really exist.
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Post by balok on Aug 26, 2007 19:43:37 GMT -5
Iron Man would then give a full, reasoned account of why he did what he did and given what we've seen of him, almost certain a full apology as well and an acknowledgement that it was probably wrong, but he hopes Thor will understand why he did it. Iron Man is not humble enough to handle it this way. And I believe there is no justification for the violation Tony, Reed, and Hank committed when they created Clor. The creation of Clor itself is an act of incredible arrogance, coming as it does from an ends justify the means philosophy which Tony fully embraced starting with Civil War and partially embraced prior to that. No explanation can justify it, and only the destruction of Clor, a promise never to try again, and a lot of time can heal it - if it can be healed at all. If I had Thor's power? I would probably use it to kill someone who cloned me, passed the clone off as me, and allowed the clone to do murder. I would probably make the attempt without Thor's power but I doubt I would succeed. It's a vile thing to do to someone. Then he'd work THAT out before he even mentioned "Move your ass out of Oklahoma." Which, really, he is perfectly within his rights to demand. Not really. Thor paid for the property over which Asgard now hovers. Tony might, if he chose to be an ass about it, try to get Kansas to demand Asgard be moved under zoning laws. On the other hand, Kansas knows Thor paid the farmer in gold - what do you bet they tell Tony to pound sand, knowing they can make buckets off the property taxes? [Tony would then be forced to blast a few Kansas legislators until the rest of them saw it his way, because he knows he's right and everyone else is wrong and if you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet, well, repulsor rays break eggs very nicely indeed. ]
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Post by Tana Nile on Aug 26, 2007 22:30:20 GMT -5
Hardly. I don't see how that changes anything, there is NO way a well written Thor and a well written Iron Man would face off in this manner. I couldn't agree more because a well written Iron Man wouldn't have created a clone of Thor in the first place so the face off wouldn't exist. A well written Iron Man wouldn't have done half the things he's done over the past year. Foolish me, I thought we were limited by what the characters actually do toward our "Comic book" reality. If we are now going to pretend things don't count if we perceive them as "Not well written," I'm returning all my Bendis books to my dealer and demanding a refund on the basis that they don't really exist. Well said, and basically what I was thinking. I don't like the way Iron Man has acted since civil war, but that's how the character is now established. If Marvel really had a problem with the way JMS writes Iron Man, wouldn't they have reined him in? His IM is only somewhat more arrogant and egotistical than others'. It's no surprise to anyone - well almost anyone - that this Iron Man and Thor would come into conflict upon meeting. This one was easy to predict.
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