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Post by Doctor Doom on Oct 30, 2006 15:20:59 GMT -5
Hey all
Does anyone else think respect for Thor is dropping more and more and more? I mean, maybe it's just me, but i think since the demise of his series people are forgetting just how powerful the God of Thunder is.
This really came to my attention over at CBR, when I realised just how set against Thor everyone seemed to be. Now there have always been arguments between Thor fans and Sentry fans, but this is now at a ridiculous extreme. On the Brawls board over at CBR (Which I recommend you NEVER to EVER go to, under any circumstances. Most of the outcomes are ridiculous and it is a black pit which will have you roaring "WTF?" as long as you read it) there was a challenge to power rank everybody, using Superman at 100 as a base level.
Thor was generally being set at about 100.
Sentry was being set from 600-1000.
Now this had me go "WHAT?" repeatedly. Alright, Thgor near Superman I can buy. But Sentry being SIX TIMES as powerful; as Thor? This is simply ridiculous, and attempts to argue are ignored or else responded to with "What's the last thing Thor's done, Sentry can pwn Silver Surfer!"etc.
Hell, I'm even seeing people argue Sentry could beat ODIN-FORCE THOR without difficulty. Y'know, Odin Force Thor? Who can raise people from the dead? (Admittedly without a soul) Even when it isn't just Sentry, I'm finding people seem to have less and less respect for him. I would have hoped CW 4 would have at least partially rectified that (Thor beating absoloutely everybody with extreme ease... and then it was revealed it was a clone Thor who was WEAKER than the original) but to no avail.
I'm starting to despair at the lack of respect for one of my favourite Avengers. So, please- reassure me. Is it just me or are people really starting to respect Thor less and less? (I even heard one Sentry fan have the gall to call THOR a pretty boy. A SENTRY FAN!!!!!!)
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Post by Doctor Bong on Oct 30, 2006 16:29:43 GMT -5
Well, Doom, perhaps you can emphatize better with us, Iron Man fans now (the few, the proud...)...
But, seriously, didn't the fact that it took so long for Marvel to restart his solo series clued you into realizing this before...? After all, if Thor was held on high regard or considered to be such a valuable commodity by either Those Who Sit in Shadows at Marvel or by the fans at large, do you think they would have allowed the Thunderer to stay shelved for so long...? Can you see DC shelving the Green Lantern series for a similar amount of time...?
Well, regarding their power levels, Thor has been constantly depicted as being in the superhuman class 100 range, as you mentioned.
I'm no expert about the DC Universe, especially these days, but what with Superman having always been its most famous inhabitant, I'll venture to say it is my understanding that he's always been, pretty much, portrayed as being far stronger than the beings who belong in Marvel's superhuman class 100 range...
Then came the Sentry, which seems like Marvel's true answer to Supes, at least on the power department, and he's been shown displaying an awesome amount of power in his mini... definetly more than classic Thor (that is, without the Odinpower...); after all, he was seen as defeating Terrax, a former herald of Galctus, in something like 10 or 15 seconds... To my knowledge, Thor has never been known to defeat any herald or former herald THAT quickly...
But I think that while the question posed is, indeed, quite interesting, it side-steps the issue that how powerful a hero is isn't nearly as important as how 3-dimensional, interesting or complex he (or she) is... On that department, Thor is class 500 & the Sentry's class 5 (if that!).
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Post by Doctor Doom on Oct 30, 2006 17:12:14 GMT -5
Ah but ua2, I DO empathize with IM fans. Myself I actually like IM MORE now than I did pre-Civil War  Ahem, I should clarify something- this wasn't using established 'class' ranges, this was just taking Supes as an example of a class 100 and using a new system from there. I still don't think an argument can made for Sentry being 6 times as good as Thor, particularly when we saw Thor NARROWLY beaten by Superman in JLA/Avengers, and that was with Thor not using ANY of his weather powers. And actually, I was, would you believe, in FAVOUR of Thor staying shelved for a while. Oeming wrote a fantastic ending for the Thor mythos which seemed a worthy end for the God of Thunder and I was very worried that his return would totally cheapen that story and rob it of all purpose. Stories like the main Disassembled were such terrible ends unworthy of their characters that I couldn't wait for the return. But with Thor, by waiting 2 years, Marvel have given the story more of a place in marvel history and I don't think it's a sign of disrespect, even if I am ready to see him back in glory! And of course, power is nowhere near as importance as complexity and depth. The best examnple of that (Screw you Batman! Sorry, Iron Man!) has always been to my mind Captain America. His powers aren't anything special next to the power wielded by so many heroes out there, yet he's always been the leader of marvel, the first among the Avengers and the icon of all marveldom assembled. (Actually, my dislike for him not withstanding I feel even Sentry has more depth than Superman but I'll save that for another time) To return to the point, I almost get the feeling these days that if Thor came back (as he will soon....) many fans will say "Yeah... so what? We have Sentry, why should we care about Thor?" Much as I liked Jurgens' runs, I guess it is partially to blame as he so isolated Thor from every other marvel title his presence was lacking from the marvel universe for a time. That is why I as a Thor fan LOVED the ending of Civil War #3. Yes, I recognize that back when we thought it was Thor there were huge questions as to what side he was on. But Thor's return deserved to be massive, deserved to get people talking and have enormous impact, and it did.... and then it was a false start and people were back to dissing Thor again. Still, since we can be pretty confident the real Thor will be showing up in Civil War, I look forward to that. If Millar did so much with the fake Thor, I can only look forwards to what he'll do with the real thing! |
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Post by Doctor Bong on Oct 30, 2006 20:14:45 GMT -5
Making my case regarding the importance of the Sentry, I think I was unable to clarify my objections towards the character enough: to be sure, the background & psychological baggage he was given by his writers (during the mini & before) IS a complex one, and one that I believe could have translated into a very rich character, with much depth. My contention is that, somehow, along the road, them & Bendis (in NA) failed to capitalize on those background & plot opportunities, failed -if you will- to hit the right notes that would resonate with the fans at large, and in the end we were left with a very flat note, an awesomely powered turkey...
On the subject of Superman's defeat of Thor: IMO (and as a lifetime Marvelite I'm loathe to express this), this was a concesion to Marvel on DC's part... No way they are so evenly matched when it comes to strength, unless Supes has been seriously depowered in recent times (Meaning long after Byrne). We can debate whether Mjolnir could conceivably put the Man of Steel down, on the other hand, since Superman's vulnerability to magic is well documented, but on the subject of strength alone, sorry, if history means anything, Supes should have cleaned Thor's viking clock easily....
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Post by Yellowjacket on Oct 31, 2006 1:59:56 GMT -5
Then came the Sentry, which seems like Marvel's true answer to Supes, at least on the power department, and he's been shown displaying an awesome amount of power in his mini... definetly more than classic Thor (that is, without the Odinpower...); after all, he was seen as defeating Terrax, a former herald of Galctus, in something like 10 or 15 seconds... To my knowledge, Thor has never been known to defeat any herald or former herald THAT quickly... Didn´t know this, I assume this happened in the recent mini (which I won´t buy because of JRJR)? According to this Sentry really is more powerful than I´d thought and certainly than I`d approve. Too much power? -- too easy fights (stories). In point of Sentry´s characterization: he´s still a "new" character in MU so I don´t think it´s really fair to compare him with our beloved classic characters. After all, it may well be Sentry is long forgotten in some ten years, and who will then care that he beat Terrax in 10 seconds? |
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Post by Doctor Bong on Oct 31, 2006 2:08:14 GMT -5
Word, Yellowjacket...
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Post by Doctor Bong on Oct 31, 2006 2:18:29 GMT -5
But Thor shouldn't have too much trouble handling the Sentry, on the other hand, considering how weak & vulnerable he's been shown to be MENTALLY. For confirmation on this assesment, I refer you to Iron Man Vol. 3 (... or is it 4, d**n,...) #11.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Oct 31, 2006 8:50:31 GMT -5
Oh no arguments from me on the STRENGTH front. But we all know these battles are about far more than strength. In a full-out battle, Superman and Thor would be pretty d**n evenly matched IMO, based on what we've seen an enraged Thor do before. WIth his mastery of the weather and the power of Mjolnir, I believe Thor would emerge victorious. Now WITHOUT Mjolnir or even his storm powers, he may well lose as we saw, but it seemed unfair to imply that Superman would beat Thor and not even mention that Thor did not use his storm powers to full effect.
Plus if I recall correctly, Supes actually CAUGHT Mjolnir when Thor tried to bring it down on him, which I again oppose because the hammer is enchanted/mystical/whatever you want to call it and Supes' weakness to magic is well documented.
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Post by Tana Nile on Oct 31, 2006 11:13:32 GMT -5
I don't want to dwell too much on the Thor vs. Superman question (let me just say though that with Supes superspeed, Thor (or anyone else) should never lay a hand on him). I do think that some of the disrespect or dimishing of Thor's stature has come from his defeat by Superman in the JLA/Avengers crossover. And since Sentry is described as Marvel's Superman, by extension then, many feel he could beat Thor. Maybe, maybe not, but the point is, there does seem to be some feeling that Thor is now not in the elite of power. It's as if he has been demoted to Wonder Man status. And please, that's not a knock on Wonder Man, but in the past, Thor has been acknowledged to be more powerful than Wondy. Why should Thor be in the elite? 1. he's a god....that's an automatic pass. 2. class 100 strength. he can go toe to toe with the Hulk. 3. super-tough, gotta be, if he goes up against the Hulk! 4. the hammer. Not only does it allow him to whip up storms, lightning blasts, gusts of wind, basically everything Storm can do, but it has many other properties as well. As a melee weapon, it does massive damage, and it can also be thrown to be used as a ranged attack. Thor has been shown to project energy blasts from it, as well as absorb energy with it. He can open portals to other dimensions by spinning it around himself. At one time, he could also use it to travel through time, but I think that power was removed at some point. And on top of all this, it allows him to fly. Nuff said. There was a time during Steve Englehart's run where Thor was convinced by Moondragon that he was too powerful to be hanging out with mortals, that by doing so he was merely gratifying his own ego. While that second part was bogus, the first part could be argued. With Thor around, few earthly menaces could stand up to the Avengers. I think the same arguement could be made for the JLA and Superman. Who cares which of these two could beat the other up, the fact is, they are gods among men and have power beyond comprehension! Excelsior!  |
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Post by Doctor Bong on Oct 31, 2006 15:09:36 GMT -5
When tananile mentioned that Avengers storyline with Moondragon, it's memory came back rushing in into my mind... For a relatively short moment in Avengers' history, their ranks were shrunk to just Cap, Shellhead, Thor & the Wasp, and yet it's a time which I enjoyed throughly, because of the writing as well as the art.
Anybody else remembers how in #220, having seduced & mentally controlled Thor, Moondragon gave him a lump of coal so he can squish into a diamond (the sort of thing that Supes was always doing in the old days...!). The Thunder God readily complies, but it turns out it was merely Moondragon manipulating his mind. She proceeds to think: 'Only in absurd fantasy can coal be squeezed into diamond!" I always thought that was a brilliant way for Shooter to criticize & poke fun at the extremely exaggerated ways (even for comics) in which Superman's powers used to be displayed back on those days.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Oct 31, 2006 15:19:46 GMT -5
I cannot resis adding that the aforementioned issue is one of my favorites for another reason: it was one of those moments when we get to see, however briefly, just how powerful Iron Man's armor could be, when having access to a big enough power source. He has Thor on the ropes, if only momentarily.
Say what you will about Jim Shooter but, as a huge IM fan, I have a soft spot in my heart for him because, in my view, he always wrote Shellhead like he repected the Golden Avenger. Kinda like a forerunner for Kurt Busiek.
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Post by Tana Nile on Nov 1, 2006 10:52:50 GMT -5
Actually the stories I was thinking of were around the 140's of volume 1. You remember, there was a fight with the Squadron Supreme, Kang shows up and we get the wild west issues, and eventually this brings us to 150, with a new membership. All this and some of the early Perez Avengers work. But I know the issues you are talking about too. That Moondragon, what a piece of work....
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Post by Doctor Bong on Nov 1, 2006 13:09:56 GMT -5
My word...! Shame on me!!! I can't keep my Moondragon storylines separated!!!
I shoulda paid better attention, since you did say it was under Engleheart's tenure...
But Thor & Moondragon do have somewhat of a story together, eh...? Both of them were also among the Avengers who challenged the Infinites...
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