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Post by Doctor Doom on Jun 8, 2007 6:58:21 GMT -5
With no Nutty cases to steal my thunder, I can resume posting Iron Man threads with the brilliant tagline!
Doom's Deconstruction: The battle continues. Aboard the Helicarrier, Dum Dum Dugan is monitoring things when suddenly enormous organic tentacles attack. There is confused melee, many SHIELD agents killed. In the Psychiatric Facility below, Iron Man discovers that the Chinese Government have found out and everything is going haywire. The tentacles are meanwhile absorbing crew at their posts on the Helicarrier and siezing all stations.
The Helicarrier Bridge then erupts (There goes the next one, eh?) as Maria Hill and Dugan escape. Turns out the tentacles are using the guns to blow up the ship, but they can't scuttle because then the... whatever they are- could infect the sea life below. Suddenly, IRON MAN flies in to save Hill and Dugan, telling them to grab a chopper. They then realise that at current speed they'll soon be over North Korea! Meanwhile there's mayhem as forces scramble to respond, Stark is wondering what the Hell has gone down. He's told Maya and Sal are still MIA and he locates them and goes there.
Maya is fine. Sal has been brutally killed by the tentacles, which are now erupting from him Iron Man has a horrified moment as he recalls that his "father" (Sal) his friend (Happy) and his "brother" (Cap) have all been taken from hin in just months, and tellh imself "but I... am... IRON MAN!" He DESTROYS the tentacles- and Sal and bursts out of there with Maya. Maya screams at him that this tentacle mess is extremis and she could have developed a way to counter it months ago so this is Maya's fault.
North Korean planes challenge the out of control Helicarrier, but the Extremis-controlled helicarrier shoots them down, making the situation ever worse. He gets her to tell him quickly how a countermeasure to Extremis would work and she tells him it disables apoptosis so damaged cewlls multiply. Iron Man recalls that one side effect of the healing factor which is part of Extremis is his own complete immunity to cancer. As a result, he flies into the middle of the tentacles and takes a huge risk, removing ALL of his armour. The tentacles all reach up to grab him and engulf him.
Silence falls. Cut to the entire Helicarrier, everyone on it bar Maya dead.Then suddenly Tony gives a roar and rips outwards and the entire Extremis creature thing explodes having enwrapped him.
We cut to Secretary of Defence Kooning, he tells Dugan that Dugan's wish (from 15) will be granted- Tony Stark will be fired and Dugan will be director. Dugan tells him that he served under Fury and then says: 'He saw the world for what it was. Director Stark sees the world for what it can be. If he goes... then so do I." Kooning snarls at him that he knows where the bodies are buried. Dugan just looks back and replies "So do I.... sir."
Stark has something of a heart to heart with Hill. He tells her that all the terrorist attacks (See IM 15-16) were obviously funded by one source, all using biotech. He reflects that he should have "pushed the Extremis" button and then Sal would be alive. Hill typically says he should have, but he reflects that he couldn't, it was a line he couldn't cross again... not after the war, not after Steve's death. And he thinks they knew that. Hill just thinks they wanted mass casualties, which they got. Stark thinks they want something more... but he doesn't know what.
We cut to elsewhere where we see Maya being brought into her new job, working on Extremis. They want her to meet someone- their CEO, Tem Borjigin. Someone who looks VERY much like the Mandarin wearing strange gloves (Mandarin has no hands) steps out and tells her that he can't TELL her how pleased he is to have her.
The View of Doom: Wow! What an issue! Best since the phenomenal 14! First thing's first, this tied the arc together much better than I expected. I viewed 15 and 16 as kinda stand-alone with 17 and 18 interconnected but it's now clearly one arc. We see resolution to the Extremis-Maya plot, to the Mandarin's return (kinda) to the mystery terrorist backer to Sal's new role and finally a lovely (unexpected) parallel to the end of 15. Brilliant!
I also love the air of SHIELD professionalism the Knaufs infuse the title with. It's unexpected and realistic if occasionally tiresome. We have references to strike teams, EVAC teams, special commandos, international incidents, etc etc, it really feels like a military organization. I mean really, in how many titles are you going to be terrified of a battle heading towards North Korea and the international incident that results?
Poor, poor Tony. Now he loses SAL as well. I don't care what anyone says, at this stage Tony has suffered the greatest losses of anyone in the last few months- Spidey eat your heart out. As he says in this issue, he's lost a father figure and two of his greatest, closest friends in addition to so much of his stature in the superhuman community. If he felt the gains of the war weren't worth STEVE's death imagine what his feelings must be when you toss Happy and Sal into the bargain. Nice to see Sugan is now an ally and a friend though. A kickass one at that. (Though one questions why you bother having a Sub-Director if the plan is to have a completely different person take over when the DIRECTOR is kicked out.)
I've said it before, I'll say it again. The Knaufs get Iron Man. They get him more than most writers at marvel, especially Bendis and Hudlin etc. They know what makes Tony tick, they know what he's capable of, they know what he feels. We can feel his pain as he reflects upon how much he jas lost. And for the first time since the civil war (even I acknowledge he's done some bad things) I actually fully cheered him again. Normally these days he's a hero whose done some bad things. In this issue, he's a hero and THAT's priority one. Yeah he's done bad things but he is VERY clearly a hero above all, risking his life to save the world.
Very interested in what happens next, World War Hulk should be cool with the excellent Gage writing. This title is being hurt by the blatantly out of character Iron Man in other titles but it's own merits make it well worth buying on it's own.
Doom Decrees That This Issue Shalt Be Given... Nine Gold Dooms Out Of Ten
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Post by balok on Jun 8, 2007 8:21:23 GMT -5
Iron Man's actions have made him a very controversial figure. Some see him as a villain, others as a hero. That's going to lead to inconsistent writing, because writers and other creators aren't immune to those biases. You like this book because it presents Iron Man as a hero, and that's what you believe he is. Others might prefer the books that show him as a villain, because that's what WE believe he is.
I doubt Tony really misses Steve all that much. His convenient death makes advancing the Initiative easier because it stripped opponents of a figure around whom to rally. And sooner or later, a person who believes the ends justify the means, as Tony does now, will realize that he's better off without Steve than with him. At that point, he'll stop grieving and start celebrating, inside.
So, Extremis is out of control? I suppose that shouldn't come as a surprise - power-ups in the comic book world are never free. I wouldn't blame Maya exclusively, though. She developed it, but Tony used it. Maybe he felt he had no other options at the time, but I'll bet if he'd thought about it he could have found some friends to help him. Back then he hadn't alienated a lot of them, after all. (And you can bet that even the folks who took the amnesty after Cap surrendered don't look at Iron Man the same way they once did.)
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jun 8, 2007 8:27:16 GMT -5
Iron Man's actions have made him a very controversial figure. Some see him as a villain, others as a hero. That's going to lead to inconsistent writing, because writers and other creators aren't immune to those biases. You like this book because it presents Iron Man as a hero, and that's what you believe he is. Others might prefer the books that show him as a villain, because that's what WE believe he is. Right, the difference is that no books at ALL show him as a villain so you'll have to be content with the ones showing him as an anatagonist and tortured hero. And he's NOT a villain. It's basically a fact that he's a hero, even the vast majority of the Internet will admit he's a hero, if a tarnished one. Then this just demonstrates you've either gone mad or are- wait for it- wildly exgaeratting everything bad we've seen and adding it together while ignoring absolutely everything good. Because for about the sixty-fifth time you apply your belief that if a person believes somrthing in situation X, they must believe the same thing in every other situation. And you believe Tony is cold, ruthless and emotionless more than ANY comic, even the anti-reg New Avengers, can possibly claim. Well he literally had no options at the time. He would have been dead in about 60 seconds and Washington would have been levelled. True. And YOU can bet that if Cap had lived, no-one would have looked at him the same way they once did.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Jun 8, 2007 8:30:49 GMT -5
With no Nutty cases to steal my thunder, I can resume posting Iron Man threads with the brilliant tagline! tsk tsk,... My issue has not yet arrived. but I am here. I shall try to leave your thunder intact thaough.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jun 8, 2007 8:32:50 GMT -5
Yes Nutcase, but you ruined my run. Next issue I'll have to outdo myself by getting it first so rather than boring old "Iron Man 19" we can have the full title: "Iron Man #19: Director of S.H.I.E.L.D.- WORLD WAR HULK"
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Post by Nutcase65 on Jun 8, 2007 8:45:15 GMT -5
Yes Nutcase, but you ruined my run. Next issue I'll have to outdo myself by getting it first so rather than boring old "Iron Man 19" we can have the full title: "Iron Man #19: Director of S.H.I.E.L.D.- WORLD WAR HULK" Shouldn't it be "Girltron" director of SHIELD though? This is one timeline I can't figure out yet. It makes my head hurt to figure out where MA fits in time-wise with other series IM shows up in,
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jun 8, 2007 8:49:56 GMT -5
Naa, it's easy. Remember, all of MA takes place in one day so far, which is a few days after Captain America's assassination. That's all we need to know really.
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Post by balok on Jun 8, 2007 9:17:17 GMT -5
Right, the difference is that no books at ALL show him as a villain so you'll have to be content with the ones showing him as an anatagonist and tortured hero. And he's NOT a villain. It's basically a fact that he's a hero, even the vast majority of the Internet will admit he's a hero, if a tarnished one. I suppose that depends on one's definitions. The nicest thing I could say about him is that he's very tarnished right now. Because for about the sixty-fifth time you apply your belief that if a person believes somrthing in situation X, they must believe the same thing in every other situation. And you believe Tony is cold, ruthless and emotionless more than ANY comic, even the anti-reg New Avengers, can possibly claim. History shows that people who adopt an "ends justify the means" philosophy turn to it the next time it will help them. Bad behavior is self-perpetuating. Why do you think so few criminals spontaneously rehabilitate themselves? The path of least resistance is a seductive thing. The writers aren't guaranteed to write him that way, of course, but realistically he'd get worse before he got better. Yeah, I think it takes someone pretty cold and ruthless to employ scare tactics like the threat of an Atlantean invasion to create conditions in which the government can take effective control of superhumans. To violate the civil rights of former friends and allies to scare others into joining the putsch. I'd guess Tony's sorrow over Steve's death is pretty much crocodile tears, based on his actions. Well he literally had no options at the time. He would have been dead in about 60 seconds and Washington would have been levelled. True, but that does not absolve him of responsibility. Let's hope he realizes that and takes the necessary steps to repair the harm. True. And YOU can bet that if Cap had lived, no-one would have looked at him the same way they once did. I guess we won't read that story until Joe Quesada leaves and the next guy brings Cap back.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jun 8, 2007 10:30:18 GMT -5
I suppose that depends on one's definitions. The nicest thing I could say about him is that he's very tarnished right now. Really? Nicest I could sayu is that he's the biggest hero there is in marvel right now. Down to definitions and perceptions, methinks.
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Post by Tana Nile on Jun 8, 2007 11:33:27 GMT -5
I don't doubt that Tony misses Steve, but the thing with Tony is, it's all about him! Tony strikes me as grieving over his loss, not over Steve's death per se. Everything he has done has improved his situation - the civil war has given him unparalled power and clout, not to mention the big bucks he (and Richards) made off of their sales to the gov for the prison, the weapons, etc. He may justify his actions, even to (and perhaps especially to) himself, by saying he's doing all this stuff to help mankind, but ultimately, look where he winds up. The guy may be the most powerful person in the Marvel U now. That, plus his attitude that he knows better than everyone else, certainly makes him the most dangerous person in the world.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jun 8, 2007 12:07:32 GMT -5
But tana, that's the OPPOSITE of what he means. (And I should point out that all extra profit made was given to charities.)
The entire thrust of Iron Man now is that he's selfLESS. It's right here, it was a big point in civil war. He is willing to give away EVERYTHING to do the right thing. He thought he was going to die in the war, and thought it was worth it. He was willing to lose all his prestige, to have all super-humans HATE him, if it made for a better future. He made huge sacrifices- and right in this very issue he makes more, willingly throwing himself into the path of something which could well kill him to try and save others.
He has been REWARDED, yes, because that's what happens with heroes- they are selfless and rewarded for it. But remember, Tony didn't even WANT to be director of S.H.I.E.L.D. He turned down the job when first offered it, he only took it in the end because he could keep everyone's identities safe. It's not about him, it never was- that's the last thing he thinks of.
One line in this issue really really rang true with me and sums up Tony perfectly. "Fury saw the world for what it is. Stark sees it for what it CAN BE."
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Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on Jun 8, 2007 12:28:27 GMT -5
Oh for the love of Pete, all this ridiculous situation in the MU right now is due to Tony's being able to see what the future CAN be... (not what it WILL be, mind you), backed by Reed's ridiculous attempts at writing a mathmatical equation to do the same.
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Post by Tana Nile on Jun 8, 2007 14:30:07 GMT -5
Oh for the love of Pete, all this ridiculous situation in the MU right now is due to Tony's being able to see what the future CAN be... (not what it WILL be, mind you), backed by Reed's ridiculous attempts at writing a mathmatical equation to do the same. If I read "I'm a futurist" one more time, I'll scream. There have been a lot of smart people throughout history who have thought they could predict the future based on current trends. But I still do not have my own personal hovercar, nor do I have an ID number stamped on my forehead (thankfully). I think it would have been far more palatable for me if these guys had just time traveled to the future and seen things in ruins because of rampant superhumans. The way it stands now, they have taken all of their actions based on nothing more than extremely educated guesses. This premise has made Stark and Richards look like egotistical control freaks (and that's probably the kindest thing I could say).
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Post by Tana Nile on Jun 8, 2007 14:43:14 GMT -5
But tana, that's the OPPOSITE of what he means. (And I should point out that all extra profit made was given to charities.) As I recall, the money that went to those charities was due to Stark manipulating the stock market. That's not a victimless crime, and it definitely is a crime. But then, I forgot, we're saying it's for the greater good, so that makes it OK. I'm sorry, but as he's been written, I just don't buy that characterization. He's been doing all of this because HE thinks he knows what will happen. He's decided that he knows what's best for the rest of the world. His massive ego is the guiding force behind the current situation, not his sense of self-sacrifice. It's not that convincing to hear how much he has suffered, while he's sitting on his throne. But that's my interpretation, others (like yourself) see things differently.
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Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on Jun 8, 2007 14:46:17 GMT -5
If I read "I'm a futurist" one more time, I'll scream. There have been a lot of smart people throughout history who have thought they could predict the future based on current trends. But I still do not have my own personal hovercar, nor do I have an ID number stamped on my forehead (thankfully). I think it would have been far more palatable for me if these guys had just time traveled to the future and seen things in ruins because of rampant superhumans. The way it stands now, they have taken all of their actions based on nothing more than extremely educated guesses. This premise has made Stark and Richards look like egotistical control freaks (and that's probably the kindest thing I could say). Tana, but as you may know, in the Marvel Universe you cannot technically change your timeline's future, you only spark an alternate timeline. So apparently the current MU that's being printed is an alternate timeline... perhaps that is how they will ultimately undo all of this mess one day (which of course they will have to)... or they can flip flop between the timelines, kind of like flip flopping from a combined universe and any number of infinite universes *cough*DC*cough*
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Post by Nutcase65 on Jun 8, 2007 18:39:23 GMT -5
Doom,... the thing about Tony is that it isn't selflessness. Most of his acts, including those of generosity are a means of fulfilling himself in some way. His grief, as written, really does seem to be more over than the cost to his emotions than to the great loss to everyone else.
I'm not saying that equals bad writing, it has just always been a characteristic of Stark. All heroes must have a flaw to be believable, his is self-absorption with self-interest mixed in.
Also cheesy moustache.
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Post by balok on Jun 9, 2007 19:17:05 GMT -5
As I recall, the money that went to those charities was due to Stark manipulating the stock market. That's not a victimless crime, and it definitely is a crime. But then, I forgot, we're saying it's for the greater good, so that makes it OK. And the victims of that crime are generally small investors who have the least to lose. Big investors don't represent as much of the stock market as you think, and they usually see these trends coming because they have what you and I don't: competent professional analysts to keep an eye on their holdings. So the money Tony gave to charities he essentially stole from John and Jane Q. Public's IRA, or from mom and pop businesses, or from the casual investor. But that's okay with him because the ends justify the means. ...He's decided that he knows what's best for the rest of the world. His massive ego is the guiding force behind the current situation, not his sense of self-sacrifice. It's not that convincing to hear how much he has suffered, while he's sitting on his throne. But that's my interpretation, others (like yourself) see things differently. Exactly, and consider yourself exalted, Tana. Stark isn't selfless at all - he's got an ego the size of, well, Ego, and it's telling him he knows what's right for everyone, as if he was some kind of father to the country. In Greek tragedies, such incredible hubris always, *always* presaged terrible disaster, because the Greeks understood what Quesada and his peeps don't: that unchecked, massive ego leads to ruin, every time. Because they don't understand it, I doubt Tony will experience the catastrophic reversal of fortune his acts have earned him.
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Post by Tana Nile on Jun 10, 2007 13:42:25 GMT -5
...He's decided that he knows what's best for the rest of the world. His massive ego is the guiding force behind the current situation, not his sense of self-sacrifice. It's not that convincing to hear how much he has suffered, while he's sitting on his throne. But that's my interpretation, others (like yourself) see things differently. Exactly, and consider yourself exalted, Tana. Stark isn't selfless at all - he's got an ego the size of, well, Ego, and it's telling him he knows what's right for everyone, as if he was some kind of father to the country. In Greek tragedies, such incredible hubris always, *always* presaged terrible disaster, because the Greeks understood what Quesada and his peeps don't: that unchecked, massive ego leads to ruin, every time. Because they don't understand it, I doubt Tony will experience the catastrophic reversal of fortune his acts have earned him. That's what I am hoping we are headed for here: the classic rise, fall, and redemption. I think that can be a very interesting story, certainly more interesting than just having Stark be the de facto ruler of all superhumans. Oh and thanks for the exalt!
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jun 10, 2007 13:46:46 GMT -5
This is another moment of sheer ridiculousness. IOf Tony had done this in ANY old comic, every one of you would be in arms defending him. It is CLEARLY presented as a positive thing, it is MEANT to be a positive thing but you are so completely blinded by your irrational hatred of Tony Stark (Which runs beyond your feelings for any actual villain) that you overanalayse and twist it to the most negative it can possibly be.
And he had NO IDEA he would be sitting on this throne, a thorone he would gladly renounce for any of the people who have DIED in recent months. He fully expected he would gain nothing, in fact he anticipated his own DEATH through this war. Again and again he charges into situations from which he will almost certainly not emerge, to save others.
Yes, the driving reason may be himself- to prove himself. Because HE can't bear the losses of others. But that doesn't make it any less heroic, just as no-one would have dreamed of calling him a villain prior to the sudden wave of blind, pure biting hatred for him that has swept the net. (But not the comic shops from my experience).
No, his acts earned him Directorate of SHIELD. He was willing to sacrifice absolutely everything for the good of others.
And if THAT's not heroic then I have no idea what is. Apparantly, what's "really heroic" is running around beating up policemen because you don't like being accountable.
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Post by Alchemist-X on Jun 10, 2007 22:33:49 GMT -5
You guys seem to think Tony's on a power trip and he figures he knows what's best for the whole world, but really that is the opposite. Tony has been empowered by the government to make the hard decisions in the interest of public safety that he has.
Unregistered heroes are the ones on power trips who think they know whats best for the world. Just because they have powers they know beter than the legal system and public opinion?
Tonys done questionable things, but it was in the service of his government during wartime. And throughout the proceedings he was always willing, if not trying to give quarter to his 'enemies' offering them ways out.
On the Greek tragedy angle, I must say it may be a somewhat 'logical' story progression, but its also cliche as all hell and if we avoid that it wouldn't bother me a whole lot.
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Post by balok on Jun 10, 2007 22:48:27 GMT -5
You guys seem to think Tony's on a power trip and he figures he knows what's best for the whole world, but really that is the opposite. Tony has been empowered by the government to make the hard decisions in the interest of public safety that he has. No. Most of what Tony has done has been to implement his vision of what the world should be. If that is not ego, nothing is. Unregistered heroes are the ones on power trips who think they know whats best for the world. Just because they have powers they know beter than the legal system and public opinion? Some may well be on power trips, sure. What about the ones that just want to be left along, without having to describe themselves and the powers they never plan to use to a government apparatchik? How are they on a power trip? Tonys done questionable things, but it was in the service of his government during wartime. And throughout the proceedings he was always willing, if not trying to give quarter to his 'enemies' offering them ways out. He's done criminal things. Not questionable, criminal. Clearly, though, that's what kind of government Marvel has now, so I guess he fits right in. What he offered his enemies was what they, at the time, thought was an endless internment in 42, without access to legal counsel. How is that "offering them a way out?" Unless it's offering them a way out of all that pesky freedom they can't be trusted with? On the Greek tragedy angle, I must say it may be a somewhat 'logical' story progression, but its also cliche as all hell and if we avoid that it wouldn't bother me a whole lot. I feel sad for what has happened to Tony. Marvel has taken a likeable character and turned him wrong. To fix him, someday, someone will have to take him through some sort of purgative experience like this. He'll have to atone for his evil if he's ever to be taken seriously as a hero by people who still understand that heroism is not the same thing as obedience, and that authority must be carefully constrained by law, because it is wrong more often than it is right.
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Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on Jun 10, 2007 22:53:49 GMT -5
And he had NO IDEA he would be sitting on this throne, a thorone he would gladly renounce for any of the people who have DIED in recent months. If I could muster my best Jon Stewart (Daily Show) impersonation for a moment... Whaaa?! Wait, the FUTURIST has no idea about the outcomes of events??!?! Which leads me to the next thing... He fully expected he would gain nothing, in fact he anticipated his own DEATH through this war. Again and again he charges into situations from which he will almost certainly not emerge, to save others. Once again, if I was self-described FUTURIST, and absolutely KNEW the detrimental path that society was headed down, which I used to justify my actions in creating the current societal situation as a solution... ...and then I started seeing things happening all around me that I HADN'T ANTICIPATED... ...well, I think you know where I am going with this.
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Post by Alchemist-X on Jun 11, 2007 1:50:02 GMT -5
You guys seem to think Tony's on a power trip and he figures he knows what's best for the whole world, but really that is the opposite. Tony has been empowered by the government to make the hard decisions in the interest of public safety that he has. No. Most of what Tony has done has been to implement his vision of what the world should be. If that is not ego, nothing is. Some may well be on power trips, sure. What about the ones that just want to be left along, without having to describe themselves and the powers they never plan to use to a government apparatchik? How are they on a power trip? He's done criminal things. Not questionable, criminal. Clearly, though, that's what kind of government Marvel has now, so I guess he fits right in. What he offered his enemies was what they, at the time, thought was an endless internment in 42, without access to legal counsel. How is that "offering them a way out?" Unless it's offering them a way out of all that pesky freedom they can't be trusted with? On the Greek tragedy angle, I must say it may be a somewhat 'logical' story progression, but its also cliche as all hell and if we avoid that it wouldn't bother me a whole lot. I feel sad for what has happened to Tony. Marvel has taken a likeable character and turned him wrong. To fix him, someday, someone will have to take him through some sort of purgative experience like this. He'll have to atone for his evil if he's ever to be taken seriously as a hero by people who still understand that heroism is not the same thing as obedience, and that authority must be carefully constrained by law, because it is wrong more often than it is right. 1. Did Tony ask to be SHEILD director? No he declined the first offer in fact. If it was all about his ego and what he wanted, he wouldn't do something he declined to do the first time it was offered to him. As far as fixing the world, like it or not, IT NEEDS TO BE FIXED, and few other marvel heros have done anything towards this end, usually all they do is fight super powered bank robers. 2. The Initiative has never made attempts to find people who have powers and have not used them. Anyone they've gone after has openly used their powers in a public capacity. It has also become apparent that registering does not require an individual to train or act as a superhuman if they refrain from using their powers. (the Loners LS touches on all these subjects in particular) 3. What part of "I'm offering you all pardons" or "You can all be Avengers again" Sounds like imprisonment? Amnesty has been clearly offered over and over and over again. 4. War on US soil? rulebook out the window. Besides, at least he doesn't comit assault on a regular basis, flee crime scenes, resist arrest(well lately), or attack cops or other public servants.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jun 11, 2007 2:23:44 GMT -5
Once again, if I was self-described FUTURIST, and absolutely KNEW the detrimental path that society was headed down, which I used to justify my actions in creating the current societal situation as a solution... ...and then I started seeing things happening all around me that I HADN'T ANTICIPATED... ...well, I think you know where I am going with this. Exactly what part of "use intuition to predict societal trends" somehow translates to "Know for a fact whether or not I will die."? The internet has been COMPLETELY misusing the term "Futurist" since the Illuminati special. It's a real concept, people and Tony Stark IS one. You can aim your complaints at reed Richards' psychohistory but for the "futurist" term those complaints don't apply.
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Post by Alchemist-X on Jun 11, 2007 3:01:06 GMT -5
technically Tony's a futurologist as described by dictionary.com but since its a comic book I would think its fair for the book to re-define its own definition of a futurist. dictionary.reference.com/browse/futuristAs for Tony being a futurist, it doesn't mean that he should be able to figure everyhting out, but he has a good idea of where things are going, which he has proven time and time again, even before the term futurist was associated with him.
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Post by balok on Jun 11, 2007 7:08:28 GMT -5
1. Did Tony ask to be SHEILD director? No he declined the first offer in fact. If it was all about his ego and what he wanted, he wouldn't do something he declined to do the first time it was offered to him. As far as fixing the world, like it or not, IT NEEDS TO BE FIXED, and few other marvel heros have done anything towards this end, usually all they do is fight super powered bank robers. Tony becoming SHIELD director is really a detail. It will help him achieve his real goal, which is to reshape the world as he wants it to me. That's ego, and not a little of it. He thinks he has all the answers. As to whether the world needed fixing? Well, that one's been debated before, but I'll leave it by saying two things: (1) that's a matter of opinion, and (2) it worked fine for decades until Quesada decided it was broken so he could pit hero against hero in a Civil War. 2. The Initiative has never made attempts to find people who have powers and have not used them. Anyone they've gone after has openly used their powers in a public capacity. It has also become apparent that registering does not require an individual to train or act as a superhuman if they refrain from using their powers. (the Loners LS touches on all these subjects in particular) The SHRA clearly makes registration a requirement if you have powers. There could be a number of reasons why we haven't see such stories, yet. Here are a few possibilities: (1) such individuals would be a lower priority, but don't worry, the Initiative will get around to them, and hook 'em up with SPIN tech eventually, when all the more active supers are under proper control, (2) they wouldn't be interesting stories - how interesting would a story be where the "heroes" hunt down and maim individuals who won't fight back? Oh, it may give people who enjoy authoritarianism a thrill as they thing, "There! That's what you get for thinking you're better than the State." But it wouldn't be good comic storytelling. (3) Such stories would cast the Initiative in a bad light, and Marvel doesn't want that right now, because the last thing they want is to open up the possibility that they might be wrong, or worse yet, the possibility that fans of the Initiative might start thinking about it from all facets. In particular, people might start asking questions like, "Should the government be treating me differently because of an accident of birth or timing?" The last time the U.S. did that was when it threw Japanese nationals in camps during World War II, not because of what they'd done, but because of what it was afraid they might do. 3. What part of "I'm offering you all pardons" or "You can all be Avengers again" Sounds like imprisonment? Amnesty has been clearly offered over and over and over again. What I'm talking about happened earlier in the war, when Tony led his former friends to believe that if they didn't fall in line, they'd go to 42 forever, no hope of a trial. And amnesty has been offered exactly once, following Civil War, unless you know of other occurrences? 4. War on US soil? rulebook out the window. That's dangerous thinking, that is. When passions run high, that's when the rules are most important, rather than least important. Otherwise you're going to be spending a long time afterwards saying things that start with, "I wish we hadn't..."
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jun 11, 2007 8:16:11 GMT -5
Tony becoming SHIELD director is really a detail. It will help him achieve his real goal, which is to reshape the world as he wants it to me. That's ego, and not a little of it. He thinks he has all the answers. As to whether the world needed fixing? Well, that one's been debated before, but I'll leave it by saying two things: (1) that's a matter of opinion, and (2) it worked fine for decades until Quesada decided it was broken so he could pit hero against hero in a Civil War. Tony didn't want to be SHIELD Director. In fact the main reason he took it is not to "reshape the world" but to protect the secret identities of others. How much worldshaping has he done since he took the Directorate? He's foiled terrorism, downgraded SHIELD to non-lethal, upraded most of it's tech, has minimised it's costs, tried to hunt out rogue elemtns on the organization and maximised it's efficiency. That neither seems like world fixing nor like just a "little detail" to him. No, it doesn't. The editor in charge SAYS it doesn't. Ergo all your reasons are meaningless speculation. It makes registration a requirement if you wish to USE your powers. Firstly, no he didn't leave them to believe this. In fact, Tom B later said none of what Tony said in ASM 535 is true and the conversation was retconned rather than just Tony lying. So no, he led them to believe none of that as there's no other proof. And let's see- amnesty was offered to EVERYONE in the civil war, would 90% have been arranged for the NA if they came in in 30, was offered to Cap's entire group in Civil War #3, anyone who left him and joined Tony was given immediate amnesty dyring the war, it was offered to prisoners of 42 at any time... We already know he offers it AGAIn in WWH1... So that's generally considered another few times. That's dangerous thinking, that is. When passions run high, that's when the rules are most important, rather than least important. Otherwise you're going to be spending a long time afterwards saying things that start with, "I wish we hadn't..." Don't recall cap abiding by many rules when passions ran high....
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Post by balok on Jun 11, 2007 11:21:21 GMT -5
Tony didn't want to be SHIELD Director. In fact the main reason he took it is not to "reshape the world" but to protect the secret identities of others. How much worldshaping has he done since he took the Directorate? He's foiled terrorism, downgraded SHIELD to non-lethal, upraded most of it's tech, has minimised it's costs, tried to hunt out rogue elemtns on the organization and maximised it's efficiency. That neither seems like world fixing nor like just a "little detail" to him. I guess it remains to be seen what he does with his new, superefficient toy, doesn't it? No, it doesn't. The editor in charge SAYS it doesn't. Ergo all your reasons are meaningless speculation. It makes registration a requirement if you wish to USE your powers. Then Marvel is wildly inconsistent about this. I guess it depends what day of the week and who you talk to and what book you read what the answer is. That's poor management. Firstly, no he didn't leave them to believe this. In fact, Tom B later said none of what Tony said in ASM 535 is true and the conversation was retconned rather than just Tony lying. So no, he led them to believe none of that as there's no other proof. If true, and I'll take your word for that, then it's bad management or bad writing or both. If it happened in a comic, it should be dealt with in a comic - ideally, a later issue of the same book. Otherwise we readers have no frame of reference. And let's see- amnesty was offered to EVERYONE in the civil war, would 90% have been arranged for the NA if they came in in 30, was offered to Cap's entire group in Civil War #3, anyone who left him and joined Tony was given immediate amnesty dyring the war, it was offered to prisoners of 42 at any time... We already know he offers it AGAIn in WWH1... So that's generally considered another few times. Okay, point conceded. I haven't read the wretched New Avengers for some time now - not since that vile trick Carol and Tony played with their hope that Steve was alive. Sorry, but I don't remember it being offered to those in 42 "at any time" though. I remember they were "legal non-entities" - oh, wait, Brevoort said in an interview somewhere that non of that happened. My bad! I'll note in passing that Marvel's evident inability to keep its story straight about so much lately is one reason I'm disenchanted with them. Don't recall cap abiding by many rules when passions ran high.... And we'll never know if he'd have faced the tough questions, like, "Was it a good idea to court the Punisher considering what he did?" will we? Marvel robbed us of that story.
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Post by Alchemist-X on Jun 11, 2007 17:04:46 GMT -5
But your way would rob us of Cap's death story, something that should be told for any iconic character at some point.
EDIT: Before anyone jumps all over this, I don't nessicarily think that every 'death' story should occur in main continuity (Thats what "The End" books are for, among other things) but some of them can be in main continuity, because lets face it, in comic books death WILL be overcome.
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Post by balok on Jun 11, 2007 17:12:39 GMT -5
But your way would rob us of Cap's death story, something that should be told for any iconic character at some point. Well... it wasn't essential that Cap die now. The plot that resulted in his death wasn't really part of Civil War. However, it was probably convenient for Marvel that he die now, so they wouldn't have to figure out what to do with him in their brave new world. Sure, Cap's death was planned for a long time, but so was Civil War. They could have elected to postpone Cap's death, had they wanted to explore the ramifications of his Civil War choices, simply by telling Brubaker not to kill him yet.
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