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Post by Doctor Doom on Oct 11, 2007 14:36:56 GMT -5
www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/CapAmerica/newdesign.htmlBound to happen. In January 2008, Captain America #34, comes the succesor to Steve Rogers, sporting an all new Alex Ross designed look incorporating both the familiar with the old. (The triangular shield, anyone?) Seems pretty clear it's Bucky. Let the mayhem, explosions and cries of raped childhood ensue.
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Post by Black Knight on Oct 11, 2007 14:41:31 GMT -5
The black is a little weird. And yea I am pretty sure it will be bucky as well.
Of course Steve will back in time for the Cap movie currently in the works.
After all, if Marvel likes anything its money, and they will want to cash in on all the people who may want to read the comic after seeing the movie.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Oct 11, 2007 15:14:21 GMT -5
Maybe.
But Brubaker's shown pretty clearly he has obsessive plans and doesn't like them to be thrown off. Things like Civil War he assented to because he could use them to advance his overall plan. But if having Cap back in time for the movie doesn't work with Brubaker's plan, he won't do it, simple as that.
Besides, Marvel will just release a bunch of Cap specials. I mean, for the Silver Surfer movie, the FF were split up and there were a new FF, for the Spider-Man 3 movie his costume wasn't the symbiote, his Aunt May was shot and in hospital and his identity was public and he was a fugitive, for X-Men 3 there were now only 198 mutants left and Magneto was depowered and gone, etc, etc.
I'd say it's more likely that if Bru doesn't want Cap back by the time the movie comes out, they'll release a bunch of specials and whatnot like they did with Silver Surfer and Venom/Sandman this year.
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Post by balok on Oct 11, 2007 15:42:18 GMT -5
But Brubaker's shown pretty clearly he has obsessive plans and doesn't like them to be thrown off. Things like Civil War he assented to because he could use them to advance his overall plan. But if having Cap back in time for the movie doesn't work with Brubaker's plan, he won't do it, simple as that. Weren't you the one who, on another thread, told us that if Bendis (well, actually a Skrull posing as Bendis) propose a revamp of the Marvel Universe, the Joke would remind him what was written on each of their doors as he nixed the idea? If the Joke tells Brubaker to bring back Rogers, he'll bring back Rogers. He wants to keep working for Marvel, after all. Of course, as *I* said in the same thread, Brubaker's ability to make money for the firm counts, and grants him some power - but he won't have as much powers as the movie producers will have. If the movie features Steve Rogers, then Marvel will find a way for Steve Rogers to be Cap by the time it comes out. As for this incarnation? Haven't they already done the "borderline insane Cap replacement?" Wasn't that the fellow - can't remember his name off the top - who went on to become USAgent? It's hard to picture Bucky in the role long term - especially considering that he worked for America's worst enemy for a long time. Sure, sure, the Cube took all that out of him, but if it ever comes out, the public will not be kind. I guess the answer there is to assign the story to Ben Urich and Frontline - they quash inconvenient stories that might threaten the status quo, just like ol' Rootin' Tootin' Putin's tame journalists do over in the "new" Russia now. Oh, and the shiny has to go. He looks like he's dressed in fetish gear.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Oct 11, 2007 16:08:10 GMT -5
Weren't you the one who, on another thread, told us that if Bendis (well, actually a Skrull posing as Bendis) propose a revamp of the Marvel Universe, the Joke would remind him what was written on each of their doors as he nixed the idea? Yes. That was a company wide crossover affecting the entire Marvel line. This is one book, which Brubaker has almost complete creative control over, to the scale of KILLING a marvel icon. They are two very very very different scenarios. Brubaker wanted to kill Cap, so Cap died. Joe Q would have no reason to throw out what has been a very widely celebrated, well selling Cap run which has recieved insane reviews and massive hype. He has absolutely no reason to derail Brubaker's Cap plans, particularly when he let Bru KILL the man. And the movie producers have very little power on the comics. Hence why there has been NO movie so far which has caused massive changes on the comics that wouldn't have occured otherwise. If Bru disagrees, that's doubtful. As I said, it hasn't happened like that for any Marvel movie thus far, and it's been proven movies make little difference to comic sales. ]qipte]As for this incarnation? Haven't they already done the "borderline insane Cap replacement?" Wasn't that the fellow - can't remember his name off the top - who went on to become USAgent? It's hard to picture Bucky in the role long term - especially considering that he worked for America's worst enemy for a long time. Sure, sure, the Cube took all that out of him, but if it ever comes out, the public will not be kind. I guess the answer there is to assign the story to Ben Urich and Frontline - they quash inconvenient stories that might threaten the status quo, just like ol' Rootin' Tootin' Putin's tame journalists do over in the "new" Russia now.[/quote] Wow. Talk about toally inapt comparisons. You broke the bank on that one, Balok. Oh, and the shiny has to go. He looks like he's dressed in fetish gear.[/quote]
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Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on Oct 11, 2007 16:29:55 GMT -5
I can withstand the new costume, especially since it's pretty clear its Bucky (or at elast it better be).
As for the gun and knife thing, I think as Bucky redeems himself and learns what its like to try and fill Cap's boots, he will also learn to adopt Cap's principles and drop the gun and knife... or maybe when Steve Rogers returns, he won't take back the uniform right away, and help Bucky finish his journey of redemption.
Hell, I don't know... I just know its going to be pretty awesome, as long as Brubaker keeps it up. ;D
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Post by bendisbites on Oct 11, 2007 16:37:24 GMT -5
cappy's got a gun/cappy's got a gun/ what did Joe Q doooo?/he's lowered our collective IQ/ my apologies to Aerosmith... but yippie the enduring symbol of freedom and liberty and hope appears to be surly and packing heat permanently. sorry if that image just doesn't warm the cockles of my heart...
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Post by balok on Oct 11, 2007 17:58:22 GMT -5
This is one book, which Brubaker has almost complete creative control over, to the scale of KILLING a marvel icon. They are two very very very different scenarios. We'll see, won't we. If they wait long enough and it becomes obvious that Marvel plans to leave Rogers in the ground until the Joke loses his job or retires, then maybe you're right. But I don't see it happening. Brubaker wanted to kill Cap, so Cap died. Joe Q would have no reason to throw out what has been a very widely celebrated, well selling Cap run which has recieved insane reviews and massive hype. He has absolutely no reason to derail Brubaker's Cap plans, particularly when he let Bru KILL the man. The Joke's pretty powerful - within the comic book world. But that is not all of Marvel, and the Joke does answer to the publishers. And the movie producers have very little power on the comics. Hence why there has been NO movie so far which has caused massive changes on the comics that wouldn't have occured otherwise. Spider-Man's black suit? That was done because it happened in the movie. The reason wasn't the same, but Spidey wore the black suit in the comics as a parallel to the movie, so moviegoers picking up the book would understand what character they were looking at. Spidey's organic webs also happened after the movie established their existence. The X-Mansion was entirely remodeled (including Cerebro) to match what was in the films. Over at DC, Batman got all kinds of changes following his movie, including the basic architecture of Gotham City. The movies have effects on the comics all the time. Some more than others, but it is wrong to flatly assert that there is no effect. The comic book side sees the movies as viral marketing, and to help that work they try to incorporate ideas from films into the books. Wow. Talk about toally inapt comparisons. You broke the bank on that one, Balok. Eh, Bucky's got a screw or two loose upstairs. So did USAgent. We'll see where it goes, but I don't think Bucky, as he is now, can represent America as it should be. He never will to me, anyway. Plus, as I said, the shiny fetish wear just makes him look mock-worthy.
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Post by uberwolf on Oct 11, 2007 20:13:23 GMT -5
I'm sure there's a reason for the shiny suit. Probly light body armor from Stark. An upgrade from the scale mail top Steve wore all those years... cause Bucky ain't Cap and needs armor, a gun and a knife to try and take his place.
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Post by thew40 on Oct 11, 2007 21:52:22 GMT -5
Hmmmmm. Hmmmmm.
New Cap . . . interesting.
Balok, your whole "Joe Q = Joke" thing? It's very immature.
~W~
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Post by Tana Nile on Oct 11, 2007 22:25:48 GMT -5
I'm not digging the new uniform. The shiny top and non-descript black bottom just don't seem to work together. I'm not thrilled about the gun and knife either, but then, this isn't Steve Rogers. I can't see him carrying a gun at all - sort of like Batman, but for different reasons.
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Post by bendisbites on Oct 12, 2007 0:38:51 GMT -5
Hmmmmm. Hmmmmm. New Cap . . . interesting. Balok, your whole "Joe Q = Joke" thing? It's very immature. ~W~ Do you get mad at the Emmy award winning Jon Stewart too when he makes fun of President Bush and calls him "Bushie"? For several years now? I think it has more to do with your favorable reaction to Marvel's product than the comedic virtues and relative maturity which are y'know, subjective... And besides South Park had an entire episode just now devoted to taking the biggest crap in the world. And they too noted they are Emmy awards winners during the episode. So immaturity doesn't mean it's not funny. Just not your cup of tea. I say keep rocking it Balok! Freedom of speech and expressing your dissent. The real Cap would back you up all the way. Woo hoo!
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Post by Black Knight on Oct 12, 2007 8:19:32 GMT -5
Maybe. But Brubaker's shown pretty clearly he has obsessive plans and doesn't like them to be thrown off. Things like Civil War he assented to because he could use them to advance his overall plan. But if having Cap back in time for the movie doesn't work with Brubaker's plan, he won't do it, simple as that. Besides, Marvel will just release a bunch of Cap specials. I mean, for the Silver Surfer movie, the FF were split up and there were a new FF, for the Spider-Man 3 movie his costume wasn't the symbiote, his Aunt May was shot and in hospital and his identity was public and he was a fugitive, for X-Men 3 there were now only 198 mutants left and Magneto was depowered and gone, etc, etc. I'd say it's more likely that if Bru doesn't want Cap back by the time the movie comes out, they'll release a bunch of specials and whatnot like they did with Silver Surfer and Venom/Sandman this year. Silver Sufer guest stared when the movie came out. Spidey was back in black right after the movie. Morrison put the X-Men into black leather around the time of the first X-Men movie. See the pattern. As for Brubaker not doing it, well I think he will if Joe Q tells him to. And Joe Q is all about the money.
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Post by Black Knight on Oct 12, 2007 9:37:27 GMT -5
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Post by Doctor Doom on Oct 12, 2007 10:34:06 GMT -5
Silver Sufer guest stared when the movie came out. Spidey was back in black right after the movie. Morrison put the X-Men into black leather around the time of the first X-Men movie. See the pattern. As for Brubaker not doing it, well I think he will if Joe Q tells him to. And Joe Q is all about the money. Yup, Surfer guest starred in FF when the movie came out. (Well actually, a month or two before it but the point is the same.) However, you miss that THE ENTIRE FANTASTIC FOUR WERE DISASSEMBLED AND A DIFFERENT TEAM IN PLACE.Now to me- maybe not to you, but to ME, a new reader is probably more likely to go "Why the HELL is there a totally different FF?" than "Why the hell is the Surfer not here?" Different FF, different enemies, different Galactus... had the movie come out six months beforehand, the comic would have closer resembled it! And the X-Men were in leather around the time of the first movie but the X-Men in the comics at this time were *COMPLETELY* different to the movie batch, different foes and all. So what you're saying is, they make some minor cosmetic changes to match the movies, yet change MASSIVE and far more integral pieces of the comics regardless of whether it affects the movies.
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Post by balok on Oct 12, 2007 11:24:01 GMT -5
Balok, your whole "Joe Q = Joke" thing? It's very immature. Sure, but the man IS a joke as an editor, so I'm going to go right on calling him that. That you dislike it is merely a bonus! The changes made to align comics and movies are mostly cosmetic, because that's mostly what people who go to a movie and then look for the comic book will look for. You've found one counter example in FF2 (but, then, the FF movies aren't the best draw among superhero movies - I skipped the second one because the first one wasn't very good - so there's less incentive because the movie generates fewer sales leads, which is after all its chief purpose). I contend that if they make the film about Steve Rogers, then Steve Rogers will return around the time the film comes out or soon afterwards. If they make it about Bucky, then Steve Rogers is dead until the Joke is gone.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Oct 12, 2007 11:47:46 GMT -5
Balok, your whole "Joe Q = Joke" thing? It's very immature. Sure, but the man IS a joke as an editor, so I'm going to go right on calling him that. That you dislike it is merely a bonus! Before it was just quirky. When you say that last bit, you're definitely on the level of pure childishness, I think.
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Post by Black Knight on Oct 12, 2007 11:56:26 GMT -5
Sure, but the man IS a joke as an editor, so I'm going to go right on calling him that. That you dislike it is merely a bonus! Before it was just quirky. When you say that last bit, you're definitely on the level of pure childishness, I think. Clearly doom you are giving Ed Brubaker to much power. I find it interesting when we saying that Bendis has to much control at Marvel, you say that Joe Q can make him do what he wants. But if it is Brubaker, by god nobody controls him. You can't have it both ways Doom. I showed you proof that Marvel changes things to fit there movies, this is just another one. I am sorry you don't like the idea.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Oct 12, 2007 12:01:56 GMT -5
Clearly doom you are giving Ed Brubaker to much power. I find it interesting when we saying that Bendis has to much control at Marvel, you say that Joe Q can make him do what he wants. But if it is Brubaker, by god nobody controls him. You can't have it both ways Doom. Again, not at all the same. Bendis has control over the Avengers brand, but he has little control over the individual members in any way. On the other hand, Ed Brubaker has almost unlimited control over Captain America, seeing as how he KILLED HIM and all. But obviously, Brubaker has no control over, say, Thor or Iron Man. You showed me proof Marvel make minor, cosmetic changes to suit the movies, I've shown proof that there are often MASSIVE changes in the books that make them DIFFERENT to the movies. Steve Rogers in the suit- minor cosmetic or massive change? You do the maths.
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Post by goldenfist on Oct 12, 2007 13:28:17 GMT -5
I like the picture Alex Ross drew, But the original Cap didn't use a gun in any pictures I've seen.
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Post by balok on Oct 12, 2007 16:20:42 GMT -5
Before it was just quirky. When you say that last bit, you're definitely on the level of pure childishness, I think. I already admitted that it was immature. I take issue with thew40's stated position that opinions which disagree with his should not be heard, as he has said on at least two occasions. Therefore, thumbing my nose at him rhetorically is fine with me. That said, please note the emoticon that indicates the comment should be taken tongue in cheek. The film will clearly be about Steve Rogers but if you really think they'll bring him back in comics just for the movie... ...well, clearly someone doesn't know Ed Brubaker, and it ain't me. I guess we'll see when the time comes, won't we? But if you think the Joke doesn't control what happens in the comics, then I think you don't understand his role in the company. If he wants Rogers back in the book and Brubaker won't do it, he'll fire Brubaker. Yes, editors-in-chief have fired creators for not doing as they were asked in the past. Here's how it will go: Publisher: We want Rogers back in the book to tie in with the film. The Joke: Well, Bru doesn't really want to... Publisher: Who's running the show down there, you or him? The Joke: Me. But I like to give creators some room to explore their stories. Publisher: And that's fine, when not carried to extremes. We don't ask for much but we're asking for this. We think it will help sales, which will help the stock price, which will help your annual bonus. On the other hand, if we have to give you a "less than satisfactory" on "takes direction from supervisors" that will have a baneful effect on your bonus... The Joke: (snapping open his cell phone) Ed, buddy, we've gotten together here upstairs, and we're going to need you to bring back Steve. No? Well, then, I'm afraid you're going to need to find another book to work on. Remember, The Joke is about the money, and only about the money. Creative integrity is not important to him past the point where it sells books.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Oct 12, 2007 16:26:33 GMT -5
There has to be some sort of irony in your berating the w because you believe he won't let other opinions be heard, and simultaneously stating as fact that clearly Joe Q cares only about money and not at all about creative integrity.
That's what I find hilarious, that you can't even accept he may have different views and opinions to you, it's just that he doesn't care.
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Post by balok on Oct 12, 2007 18:32:54 GMT -5
There has to be some sort of irony in your berating the w because you believe he won't let other opinions be heard, and simultaneously stating as fact that clearly Joe Q cares only about money and not at all about creative integrity. Apples and oranges. Where in what I have said about the Joke do I deny him the right to express his opinion. I merely offer my opinion of what motivates him. In no way does that prevent him from continuing his ongoing campaign to ruin the Marvel universe. And I'm not "berating" the w, merely reminding people of his own words.
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Post by bendisbites on Oct 13, 2007 1:02:25 GMT -5
lest we forget, marvel is a business and it supposed to be geared towards making money. it's a creative business, but so is TV, yet they cancel great TV shows all the time and let "Urkel" or "flavor of love" or "real world" stay on the air for some time, because the masses enjoy it. and support these banal efforts. of course Joe Quesadilla would fire anyone or change stories or do anything he needs to, to make money. It's what's expected of him. I think he tries to strike a creative balance, but I also think he targets his efforts to a particular market that enjoys the current miasma in the MU.
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Post by balok on Oct 13, 2007 14:05:19 GMT -5
Sure, Marvel is - and must be - about making money. I feel that it's possible to do this while still maintaining creative integrity, which is where I believe the Joke has failed. I think he's trying to squeeze every dime out of every book until the characters scream for mercy, because he can't or won't stand up for creative integrity (including the proper care of characters and the universe so that it remains viable for the future). I think he's doing this because he lacks the backbone to tell the publisher "no" or perhaps because he's been promised options. Whatever the reason, he is a poor creative steward of the Marvel Universe. Unfortunately, he's doing just fine financially, which means were stuck with his sorry [donkey] for awhile longer.
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Post by Engage on Oct 27, 2007 19:01:18 GMT -5
I really like the new Captain America design. It has a sort of throwback appeal with a Union Jack-ish WWII sensibility.
As to the other debate, I don't think that changes made to comics because of movies are always bad things. Sometimes the movies get it right. For example, the new Cerebro is awesome.
Marvel would have to be insane to not do everything they could to try and tie into their movies. I don't think that you can say that the blatant movie tie-ins are automatically a horrible thing for the comics storytelling. If Captain America returns in a well-planned event that makes sense in continuity with the comics, would it really matter if it happened the same week the movie came out?
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Post by goldenfist on Oct 27, 2007 23:59:33 GMT -5
They are going to think of a way to bring Cap back when his movie comes out.
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Post by balok on Oct 28, 2007 8:29:25 GMT -5
They are going to think of a way to bring Cap back when his movie comes out. I agree.
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Post by Black Knight on Oct 29, 2007 7:50:48 GMT -5
Clearly doom you are giving Ed Brubaker to much power. I find it interesting when we saying that Bendis has to much control at Marvel, you say that Joe Q can make him do what he wants. But if it is Brubaker, by god nobody controls him. You can't have it both ways Doom. Again, not at all the same. Bendis has control over the Avengers brand, but he has little control over the individual members in any way. On the other hand, Ed Brubaker has almost unlimited control over Captain America, seeing as how he KILLED HIM and all. But obviously, Brubaker has no control over, say, Thor or Iron Man. You showed me proof Marvel make minor, cosmetic changes to suit the movies, I've shown proof that there are often MASSIVE changes in the books that make them DIFFERENT to the movies. Steve Rogers in the suit- minor cosmetic or massive change? You do the maths. Major changes, hmmm how about spider-man and the organic webshooters. Yep that was changed after the movie had them. Oh convent you ignored that. And I am sorry but you said Bendis did not have control and that he would do what Joe Q no matter what. Unless you are changing your tune.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Oct 30, 2007 9:35:36 GMT -5
[quote author=blackknight board=cap thread=1192131416 post=1193662248
Major changes, hmmm how about spider-man and the organic webshooters. Yep that was changed after the movie had them. Oh convent you ignored that.[/quote]
It was changed five years after the first movie and at the exact same time, in the same way, HUGE changes were done which were nothing remotely like the movie, making it even MORe different (Rebirth, spikes from his wrists). So either you're going to selectively ignore the massive chunks of continuity which don't agree with you (Quite possible, and precedented on this site) or else you're incorrect. Your case is further weakened by the fact that this happened in a story which was a pretty organic outgrowing of the story JMS had been telling for like 6 years.
Oh but let me guess, that entire story was all done simply to lead to this moment of movie tie-in, right?
Again, you try to twist my words. If you can't see the difference between a writer ordering an EiC to have a company-wide crossover and a writer having creative control of characters in his own series, there's no help for you.
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