CAP 29

[Van Plexico]

Let me preface this by saying that I think Cap is one of the greatest characters in comics history.

While I haven't always found his adventures to be interesting-- I think he works far better as part of a group, or at the center of a broad circle of supporting characters, than he does on his own-- he always carries with him the potential for rousing, inspiring stories. I think all of us here already know the reasons why, so I won't go into them.

That being said, I've got to admit that I find his own book *much* more entertaining and engrossing of a read *without* him in it!

I read CAP in the trades the last couple of years, and didn't start buying it monthly until the month of the shooting. Now, it's one of the first things I read when I leave the store. Sam, Sharon, Bucky, and even Tony Stark are so well portrayed here, it's amazing to me. I particularly like the way Tony comes across here. I find Brubaker's version of him very likeable-- which has to gall longtime Cap fans who currently revile Stark.

As one example: The Black Widow. I've never much cared for her. She's a character that, for me, had one interesting costume and one interesting run in ULTIMATES 2 and maybe a couple of cool scenes back in the CHAMPIONS. And that was pretty much it.

Bru and Epting do more for my appreciation of her in one page of CAP 29 than any other writer/artist has done for her in the thirty years I've been reading comics.

And I continue to be astonished by Epting's art on this book.

So there you go. I never thought I'd want to read a book with its titular character not even present (or living), but indeed I find it better without him. I'm not in any particular hurry for him to get back, if it's this fun to read what his supporting cast is up to!

[balok]

Brubaker seems to have a feel for the supporting cast, alright. I question how long a book can last without its title character, but I suppose we'll see. I don't find Brubaker as wonderful as some others do - his work on X-Men is uninspiring and his work on Catwoman, years back, likewise. But he seems to have these folks in his zone. Whether he keeps my respect depends a lot on how, and how soon, he restores Cap.

I don't like Stark right now because I do like what I consider the real Tony Stark, who was never a fascist, and I find in the present Tony Stark little to recognize.

[Doctor Doom]

I maintain that Captain America is and has consistently been the single best comic book being published, and has only gotten better since the shooting. And the overall arching story that has run through 29 issues will end up as one sprawling epic saga which I think will almost certainly end up my favourite Cap story ever.

And Balok, I know this is like a tired record but really, there are few books painting Tony in a negative light these days. WWH is painting him positively, so is this book (as much as it can), so is World War Hulk, so is his own book, even Mighty Avengers is refraining from bashing him.

But of course, you'd simply say he shouldn't be behaving positively and needs a come-uppance so let's leave the dead horse.

Oh and Van, just to note- the art is split between Epting and Perkins, so it's not just Epting!

[balok]

I didn't say books were painting him in a negative light, I offered my opinion of him based on what he has done to date. I know you don't share it. I've been told that byh you so often that I've come to suspect that, like 'thew40,' it actually offends you when people don't agree with you.

[thew40]

balok said:

I didn't say books were painting him in a negative light, I offered my opinion of him based on what he has done to date. I know you don't share it. I've been told that byh you so often that I've come to suspect that, like 'thew40,' it actually offends you when people don't agree with you.

I AM DEEPLY OFFENDED! HOW DARE YOU PUT QUOTE MARKS AROUND MY NAME!

Seriously, though, Iron Man isn't a bad guy. He did stuff wrong, but it's not like he's Doctor Doom or Ultron or something . . .

(wishes "Frontline" # 11 would vanish completely)

~W~

[Doctor Doom]

thew40 said:

balok said:

I didn't say books were painting him in a negative light, I offered my opinion of him based on what he has done to date. I know you don't share it. I've been told that byh you so often that I've come to suspect that, like 'thew40,' it actually offends you when people don't agree with you.

I AM DEEPLY OFFENDED! HOW DARE YOU PUT QUOTE MARKS AROUND MY NAME!

Seriously, though, Iron Man isn't a bad guy. He did stuff wrong, but it's not like he's Doctor Doom or Ultron or something . . .

Heh. Anyone else note the irony that the two villains you picked are the names of posters here on AA? So you're saying IM is better than them. So you-

HEY WAIT A MINUTE THAT'S ME! HOW DARE YOU!?

(wishes "Frontline" # 11 would vanish completely)

~W~

Don't worry, no other comic has ever referred to it, I'm hoping it will be wiped from the collective memories of those who read it. For Cap's sake as much as Tony's.

[balok]

thew40 said:

I AM DEEPLY OFFENDED! HOW DARE YOU PUT QUOTE MARKS AROUND MY NAME!

Mea culpa. I'll never do it again.

thew40 said:

Seriously, though, Iron Man isn't a bad guy. He did stuff wrong, but it's not like he's Doctor Doom or Ultron or something . . .

Not yet, but history shows us that adopting the "ends justify the means" approach tends to debase someone into blackhearted villainy sooner or later. Marvel may, of course, choose not to write him this way.

thew40 said:

(wishes "Frontline" # 11 would vanish completely)

If wishes were horses, as they say...

The fact is, it does exist, and it's entirely consistent with his actions in Civil War. I know a lot of Tony boosters wish it hadn't been written.

It may one day be retconned away (heck, I hope the *entirety* of Civil War is retconned away and the Marvel characters begin behaving like heroes, again). But until that happens, it is canon. And it's not just Jenkins - Marvel editorial, including but probably not limited to Quesada and Brevoort, read and passed the issue. Possibly Millar as well, and maybe even CW peripheral players like Bendis, JMS, McDuffie, and so on. And they didn't change it.

[Tana Nile]

balok said:

thew40 said:

(wishes "Frontline" # 11 would vanish completely)

If wishes were horses, as they say...

The fact is, it does exist, and it's entirely consistent with his actions in Civil War. I know a lot of Tony boosters wish it hadn't been written.

It may one day be retconned away (heck, I hope the *entirety* of Civil War is retconned away and the Marvel characters begin behaving like heroes, again). But until that happens, it is canon. And it's not just Jenkins - Marvel editorial, including but probably not limited to Quesada and Brevoort, read and passed the issue. Possibly Millar as well, and maybe even CW peripheral players like Bendis, JMS, McDuffie, and so on. And they didn't change it.

I agree whole-heartedly. This is my problem when I hear/read someone saying that Iron Man is behaving inconsistently when handled by certain writers. Ultimately, the editorial folks have to approve this stuff, and they obviously don't have any problems with how IM is being portrayed.

If we as readers are willing to buy into this huge universe and continuity, then we can't pick and choose which stories are canon and which aren't. I'm not happy with the characterization of Reed Richards, Iron Man, or Cap in Civil War, but it's a part of the landscape now, and all the wishing in the world won't change that.

[Doctor Doom]

Tom B himself just posted up that yes, there's inconsistency in how Tony is being portrayed but that's just what comes of having writers and giving them freedom, in a nutshell.

I'm not saying what happened in Frontline never happened, just that I dislike it. And yes, I honestly feel it's not remotely consistent with Tony anywhere else.

Compare Thor #3 to Nova #2 and you have what may as well be two totally different characters, handling almost the same situation in COMPLETELY different ways.

[balok]

Tony's character is very controversial right now. There are going to be people who dislike what he has done (raises hand) and people who like it (raises Doom's hand). Writers have the same biases.

I don't find JMS' presentation of him all that inconsistent with an ego that could make a decision about how superheroics should work for all superheroes, and then commit various crimes and cause a war to get that implemented. That's a darn huge ego, and people with egos that size are usually quite arrogant.

So I'm the opposite of Doom, once again. I think stories portraying modern Tony as a nice guy are secretly written by Stark Industries' PR department!

[Doctor Doom]

d**n Stark industries are spending a lot since there are no ongoings that consistently paint him as a bad guy and Thor '3 is the only book on the horizon likely to do so.

Bad news for you though- though not up to the standards of other appearances, Tony is written as much more 3d and much more of a "good guy" in JMS's Amazing Spider-Man next issue. Guess even JMS has mellowed out on the guy.

[The Night Phantom]

balok said:

(raises Doom's hand)

I think it’s cute when you guys hold hands…