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Post by Doctor Doom on Jul 1, 2007 15:25:05 GMT -5
It's not out yet but already the press has broken the news. They were there for his death, now they're there for his funeral: forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=119049And though the delays suck... there's something oddly appropriate about this issue coming out on the fourth of July. One thing I ntoed- "" Iron Man, Black Panther, Ben Grimm and Ms. Marvel serve as pallbearers."" Interesting choices. Iron Man was obvious and appropriate. The Panther, as we discussed on this very forum, had a great friendship with Cap as well though I probably wouldn't have picked him myself. Ms Marvel, I assume, is to symbolise the current Avengers as a friend of Cap's and one of the most public Avengers and their leader. And Ben Grimm.... well I think that's appropriate too, but that's because I have a huge soft spot for old Benjy and view him as the soul of the marvel universe. I probably would have made different choices, but I don't think there's anything greatly wrong with the ones they made. Hopefully Loeb will keep the A-game he's brought to issues 3 and 4 and I really really hope 5 is as good as it deserves to be. |
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Post by balok on Jul 2, 2007 11:16:48 GMT -5
Personally, I think having Iron Man and Ms. Marvel carry Cap to his "final" rest insults the character.
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Post by rosecarver on Jul 2, 2007 11:31:19 GMT -5
In the Associated Press article, they talked about Cap going to court because he didn't sign the Registration Act, "a move that would have revealed his true identity."  Did I miss something? Wasn't Steve already out?  |
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jul 2, 2007 12:48:01 GMT -5
Personally, I think having Iron Man and Ms. Marvel carry Cap to his "final" rest insults the character. And i think if you're suggesting Cap would have taken offence at those two- ESPECIALLY Tony- carrying his coffin even after the civil war, then you're the one insulting his character and who understands nothing of Cap. |
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Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on Jul 2, 2007 14:41:18 GMT -5
I understand what you are saying Doomy, but I don't think that is entirely fair to Balok.
You're basing your opinion on the whole history of the Cap and Tony friendship. However, I think if Cap was to have written out a desired list of Pall Bearers before he left his cell for the courthouse the day he got shot... that if you put yourself in Steve's mind about what he felt about Tony during and after the Civil War, I don't know how you can say with any degree of certainty that Tony would be on the list. Is it possible he would still be, yes (in fact I wouldn't even be suprised if he was), but impossible that he might not be... no.
But this is a very interesting topic, who do you think would be on Steve Roger's list for pall bearers at his own funeral (if all current living persons could actually attend it that is)...
1. Falc
2. Bucky
3. Namor
4. Thor
5. Rick Jones
6. Nick Fury
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jul 2, 2007 17:03:48 GMT -5
In any non-CW situation, I'd say Tony is DEFINITELY there, maybe over Fury or even Namor.
Put it like this, I don't think Cap would object to those pallbearers in any circumstance. I mean, remember that Cap surrendered HIMSELF, he wasn't forcibly taken in. Yes, he still felt very bitter towards Tony, just as Tony did to him. But I think in the end, if it came down to life or death, Cap is man enough to see beyond recent bickering and still select Tony to bear his coffin, as it should be.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Jul 2, 2007 17:33:12 GMT -5
In the Associated Press article, they talked about Cap going to court because he didn't sign the Registration Act, "a move that would have revealed his true identity." Did I miss something? Wasn't Steve already out? Cap’s dual identity has been known to at least some parts of the federal government—notably, the Army—since he became Cap. In recent years, his dual identity has been known to the general public, too (or at least available to the general public—I’m not sure whether the average American citizen in the Marvel Universe knew his civilian name off the top of his head). Also, if the AP claimed there was some standing for Cap to sign the Act, they should bone up on the Constitution—that’s a job for the President. |
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Post by Doctor Bong on Jul 2, 2007 18:20:01 GMT -5
I understand what you are saying Doomy, but I don't think that is entirely fair to Balok. You're basing your opinion on the whole history of the Cap and Tony friendship. However, I think if Cap was to have written out a desired list of Pall Bearers before he left his cell for the courthouse the day he got shot... that if you put yourself in Steve's mind about what he felt about Tony during and after the Civil War, I don't know how you can say with any degree of certainty that Tony would be on the list. Is it possible he would still be, yes (in fact I wouldn't even be suprised if he was), but impossible that he might not be... no. But this is a very interesting topic, who do you think would be on Steve Roger's list for pall bearers at his own funeral (if all current living persons could actually attend it that is)... 1. Falc 2. Bucky 3. Namor 4. Thor 5. Rick Jones 6. Nick Fury No Hawkeye...? |
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Post by sharkar on Jul 2, 2007 19:19:18 GMT -5
No Hawkeye...? Well, if it's any consolation, he was a Cap pallbearer years ago--along with Iron Man, T'Challa, Thor, Vizh and Fury.* Check out Captain America #113 , from 1969...included in CA Essentials vol. 2. During the eulogy Fury explained the coffin contained a dummy because Cap's body was never found. *Rick is too upset to attend the service but shows up later, in time, of course, to witness the resurrection of Cap. EDIT: added CA Essentials reference...probably more accessible than the single issue #113! |
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jul 3, 2007 4:31:47 GMT -5
It should also be noted that Ben Grimm, as well as being the friend of pretty much everyone in the marvel universe, used to serve in the army- Carol Denver also served in the air force for that matter. So in terms of symbolism, which is always a major part of these things, Carol probably represents the Avengers and Ben could well represent the army, which should deifnitely be represented at Cap's funeral. Then Iron Man represents SHIELD, which he was an agent of, the Panther represents other nations Cap did some good for. That all seems to make sense, as well as them all being close friends.
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Post by Van Plexico on Jul 4, 2007 1:37:29 GMT -5
I agree. But I think Iron Man's been so insulted by everyone, lately... from his friends in the MU to Marvel Editorial itself... that what's one more insult to him?
Not to mention to Carol...
Oh-- wait-- by "the character," did you mean Cap??
;D
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jul 5, 2007 13:13:45 GMT -5
Doom's Deconstruction:
A newscaster informs us it's raining as we see an American flag. We pan out to see a coffin draped in an American flag being led by a single riderless white horse down the crowded streets of Manhattan, as we're told it's a ceremony until now held only for a president.
The pallbearers carry his coffin in Arlington before an Alicia Masters-sculpted statue of Cap before THOUSANDS of onlookers. Iron Man steps up to speak... and he can't. He can't say it. He just says "It wasn't supposed to be this way...." and then he's overcome and walks away.
The Falcon steps up to make his speech. He.... well, y'know what? Most of you won't read this comic, and I'm betting almost all of you won't buy it. But this is the funeral of Captain America so I'm going to reprint Falcon's speech because it's incredible and deserves a place here on Avengers Assemble:
"Good morning, I'm Sam Wilson, most of you know me as the Falcon. I've been asked to say a few words about Steve Rogers. Folks called him "Captain America", "Cap", "Winghead"- once or twice he was "Nomad" and believe it or not, "Cap-Wolf". But I got to call him 'partner', I take great pride in that. I see Rick Jones out there- he knows what I'm talking about."
"The truth is, it didn't matter what we called him. Because it all began and ended with Steve Rogers. He did more than wear the flag. He believed in all the things it stood for. And he actively workedf to inspure men, women and children to be the heroes he knew they could be. I speak from experience- trapped on an island with no chance of survival, Steve Rogers made me dig deep within myself to find that I could become the Falcon."
*Splash of Steve and Falcon fighting together from their first encounter.*
"More than any super soldier serum that had been pumped into his veins- Steve's real power came from the lives he touched in the decades he was with us. People of all ages, in all different walks of life. And now I'd like to show you something unique about the man. I'd like those of you who served with Steve in World War II to please stand up."
""I know that some of the young heroes tihnk that was a thousand years ago,"
(Show Young Avengers)
"but it wasn't for those soldiers-"
(Show old servicemen)
" those howling commandos"
(Show Dum Dum Dugan)
"Those he saved from the horrors of war"
(We see a couple, one has a number burnt into his arm)
*Splash page of Cap leading the liberation of a concentration camp*
"Thank you. If you'll please remain standing, I'd like those of you who were super heroes from those days- and their families... to join you by standing up. C'mon, that includes those of you who continue that legacy."
(We see Union Jack and Spitfire)
"As well as those of you who have long since given up wearing a cape or mask... as you see, even before there were Avengers, Steve touched the lives of The Invaders and brought about the All-Winners Squad. Sadly, some of those closest to him are no longer with us. The original Human Torch, Toro, The Whizzer, Miss America... Bucky Barnes. Although I never heard him speak of it, Steve always knew he'd live on long past the men and women he came to care for and love."
*Splash of the Invaders battling the Red Skull, Zemo and Nazis*
"It was near the end of the war that the world heard the news. Captain America and Bucky were killed stopping a plane loaded with Nazi explosives headed toward London. Imagine there are some folks here who know the loss we are feeling today from back then. It was a miracle really... that Captain America wouild live again. As unbelievable as it sounds... Steve was found frozen in a block of ice as years and years went by without him."
*We see Ms marvel and Tony wtaching. She asks him how well he remembers it- he says like yesterday, it was the greatest day of his life. We see Janet and Hank Pym watching, holding hands. He starts talking, she shuts him up."
"And we all owe Prince Namor, the Sub-Mariner... who could not be with us today, with things being how they are- a debt of gratitude for the role he played in giving us back the greatest soldier the world would ever know."
*Splash of Namor with Cap's frozen body*
"Captain America's return heralded a new era of heroes. And now I'd like those of you who continue to fight "the good fight" as Steve would say, to stand up. Some of you are famous -Avengers, young avengers, the Fantastic Four"
(We see heroes of all kinds stand together, shoulder to shoulder)
"While others, less known, make no less of a difference: Agents of SHIELD, Sharon Carter, Jarvis- the Avengers' loyal butler.... and there are more. Many more."
"Heroes who were invited byt for whatever reason, felt they couldn't attend."
(The New Avengers watch on TV. Spidey says they should have gone, the others debate it a bit, wondering if they could have got a truce. Iron Fist says they couldn't take the chance. They fall to silence and Spidey says he still thinks they should have gone.)
*Splash page of EVERYONE in the COLOSSAL funeral gathering standing,looking around, the American flag and Falcon before them. A ray of sunlight shines down through the clouds.*
"Now. Look around you. Kind of amazing, isn't it? How we usually see the differences between us -seperated by nationality, by colour, by religion- and yet here we are all connected. Steve Rogers, the skinny blonde-haired kid who grew up on the streets of New York... showed us the ideals of the American Dream.... the great melting pot that can bring out the best in each of us and bind us all together- actually works! And he can keep teaching us that long after he's gone, by telling stories about him... to our children.. to our grandchildren-= Steve Rogers, Captain America, will never die."
"This doesn't have to be a day of sadness. We can accept it as a gift of hope and unity- the kind of day Captain America lived for!"
Cut to the arctic, three days later. Iron Man, Wasp and Yellowjacket are there. He says he truly believes this is what Steve would have wanted- the funeral was for the public but Steve Rogers deserves to rest in peace. Wasp asks who is buried there- he says it's not a clone, she asks if it was a robot thing and he replies 'something like that'. She asks about the shield, and if it's with him now but he doesn't answer.
He then says that this is what he wanted to say before- if their roles were reversed, he knows Steve COULD have spoken at the funeral, and he knows Cap could have helpedf him if the funeral was for something else. He says they all should have been there- Thor, Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye, Hulk... Cap's team-mates, his friends. But they are all, one way or another lost them. He says that now he's lost Cap too, and mayve there was a reason he had to be on the other side of every argument- he could be the rudder, the steering whweel. Tony says he doesn't know if he can do it without Cap, he certainly can't do it as well. He says he misses the battle cry.
Big giant double page spread- Cap, classic Iron Man, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, classic Quicksilver, classic Wasp, Thor, Giant-Man leaping into battle as Cap cries "Avengers Assemble!"
The Sub-Mariner comes out but Tony says he wanted him to be there. Namor says he would do this only for Cap... it was here that Cap once found solitude, and they should complete the cycle. He tells them that as long as he rules the ocean, Steve Rogers' rest would go undisturbed, and takes Cap's coffin into the sea.
"One era ends..." says Wasp. "And a new one begins. We're going to have to accept that now, right, Tony?"
Tony looks on, face unmoving.
"Tony?"
He does not reply.
The coffin sinks lower and lower... and all we can see in the darkness.... is the star emblazoned on it's center.
The View of Doom:
Wow.
Just...
wow.
An insanely perfect end to a mixed miniseries. Loeb has had ups and downs, good stuff and horrible... this is probably the best Loeb I've ever read. References to everything, the Invaders, Avengers- even Jarvis was not forgotten. I... and as for the very end, I didn't see it coming but Namor's right, it is somehow... fitting. IN an odd way. And Tony was... so very human, unable to accept it, in the end.
As for the main body of the issue, Falcon's speech.... you were right, in the end, RSC. The perfect speech COULD be written. The art- well, it's John Cassady and therefore awesome. Anything more I write can only spoil it.
I don't care if you hate what's been done to Cap, you should buy this issue. If you have any real respect left for the man Cap was... buiy this issue. Because, and I never thought I'd say this- it's a funeral worthy of Captain America.
Doom Decrees That This Issue Shalt Be Given... Ten Gold Dooms Out Of Ten.
We're gonna miss you, Cap.
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Post by Alchemist-X on Jul 5, 2007 23:05:49 GMT -5
totally blew the Funeral for the Flash right out of the water(i read Countdown and Fallen Son back to back, a Funeral fest)
Very good, very touching, and it seemed to hit all the important points.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jul 6, 2007 5:04:40 GMT -5
The Flash's funeral was the very definition of unworthy. The only good part was Bart's video, which captured his spirit. How can you make a funeral worthy of Captain "I punched Hitler in the face" America, but those guys can't make one for Bart "I was Flash for a year and a month!" Allen?
52 was great (when I read it) because it had Geoff Johns, Mark Waid, Greg Rucka and Grant Morrison and compelling characters. Why exactly DC decided to make Countdown a BIGGER event while giving it LESS capable writers and WORSE characters, I have no idea.
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Post by Alchemist-X on Jul 6, 2007 20:57:05 GMT -5
I wonder
Will Cap be de-thawed and regenerated/reserected in the far future, not unlike his initial trip to the bottom? Perhaps the far flung future for a few story arcs about how bad and evil the innitiative really gets, and after fighting with little success, heads back in time to fix things, showing up alive in our time? I had figured time displacement to be the cause for his return (But in the form of another copy taken from somewhere in the past. as a certain Red Skulled character seems to be interested in time travel)
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Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on Jul 6, 2007 23:52:13 GMT -5
I wonder if the freezing could allow the decaying process to be halted, but allow the regeneration effects of the Super Soldier Serum to work their magic?
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Post by Van Plexico on Jul 7, 2007 12:40:09 GMT -5
There's still the whole "1602" theory, as originally suggested by David Wright: The Cap of 1602 said he ended up there after someone in the normal Marvel timeline shot him. He "died" and woke up in 1602.
All someone has to do is get 1602 Cap and bring him back to the future.
And Marvel went to great pains to stress that 1602 was "in continuity and official..."
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Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on Jul 7, 2007 21:05:35 GMT -5
Hrmmm, an interesting theory Van, but I quickly grabbed my copy of 1602. "After they thawed me out. I was... I was a hero. I remember some of it. A lot of it's kind of mixed up...
I fought for America. My country. I protected America. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Democracy. Not something you people have seen much of yet. But it's worth fighting for...
I didn't age. I'd tell people that it was enjoying my work that kept me young, but I guess it was the serum. Decades passed. I just kept going, and going....
The dark times came slowly, but they came.. The other heroes aged and died, or they left for... other places... Most of the rest were hunted down and killed.
And, eventually, I had to face facts. That America wasn't my America any longer. So I joined the underground. The fight to restore the country that I had sworn to protect...
Captain America fighting the President-For-Life. It was the right thing to do. But the odds were all on his side.
I was betrayed. They said they were going to get rid of me. They didn't want my ashes left behind, as any kind of memorial, to inspire others.
I remember the equipment. I was strapped down. Before they turned it on, they shot me. In the head, not the chest. It felt like a hammer. I remember that. And then I just remember the pain." |
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Post by Shiryu on Jul 11, 2007 4:42:09 GMT -5
When he eventually comes out of there, he will be very wet and cold  |
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Post by The Night Phantom on Jul 11, 2007 22:29:07 GMT -5
Hrmmm, an interesting theory Van, but I quickly grabbed my copy of 1602. A very interesting rebuttal, but what’s continuity got to do with anything? |
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Post by Alchemist-X on Jul 12, 2007 0:16:54 GMT -5
Hrmmm, an interesting theory Van, but I quickly grabbed my copy of 1602. A very interesting rebuttal, but what’s continuity got to do with anything? An equally interesting rebuttal |
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Post by Nutcase65 on Jul 13, 2007 20:49:10 GMT -5
why are you 2 talking about butts?
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Post by thew40 on Jul 20, 2007 18:27:35 GMT -5
I was finally able to make it out to my LCS today and picked up the last two issues of this series. I decided to re-read the first three along with them.
I've got to say, the quality improves overall - even the weaker issues, like Wolverine and Avengers - get better when placed in this larger context. I highly recommend it.
I found it all to be really quite emotional. Honest to God, when they bured Cap at sea, I teared up a little.
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Post by thew40 on Jul 20, 2007 18:29:53 GMT -5
Hrmmm, an interesting theory Van, but I quickly grabbed my copy of 1602. "After they thawed me out. I was... I was a hero. I remember some of it. A lot of it's kind of mixed up...
I fought for America. My country. I protected America. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Democracy. Not something you people have seen much of yet. But it's worth fighting for...
I didn't age. I'd tell people that it was enjoying my work that kept me young, but I guess it was the serum. Decades passed. I just kept going, and going....
The dark times came slowly, but they came.. The other heroes aged and died, or they left for... other places... Most of the rest were hunted down and killed.
And, eventually, I had to face facts. That America wasn't my America any longer. So I joined the underground. The fight to restore the country that I had sworn to protect...
Captain America fighting the President-For-Life. It was the right thing to do. But the odds were all on his side.
I was betrayed. They said they were going to get rid of me. They didn't want my ashes left behind, as any kind of memorial, to inspire others.
I remember the equipment. I was strapped down. Before they turned it on, they shot me. In the head, not the chest. It felt like a hammer. I remember that. And then I just remember the pain." Knowing Bendis' love of using older/underused ideas and bringing them up-to-date (with both successes and failures), it wouldn't surprise me if he wanted a push in this direction. ~W~ |
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