so, why is Cap dead anyway?

[imperiusrex]

I understand that Cap was shot, but why is he dead from said shots?
Let's examine...
One shot is to his upper body away from major organs, looked like his shoulder or upper chest. A wound from a high powered rifle, but that may work in his benefit as such a high powered bullet will often exit much cleaner. serious, no doubt, but survivable given his extraordinary condition.
Next is three shots to his lower abdomen at point blank range by Sharon Carter.
Bad, but they looked to be low shots, down and away from his major organs.
So we have four shots, all of which looked to have missed his heart, lungs and brain.
So our next concerns are shock, trauma and blood loss. Shock and trauma isn't as much a concern as Steve's body is so efficient, it's likely producing an excellent mix of pain numbing and adrenaline, his blood is also most efficient and will do everything to insure his survival given the fact that the super soldier serum puts every function of his body at the peak of human capacity.
one factoid I came across was that most gunshot that don't strike the head or heart will often leave a victim with a high probability of survival
here's one source:
www.vpc.org/studies/whounin.htm
another:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3421760&dopt=Abstract

and given that Cap's uniform is probably made of a high durability fabric (some sources have said the chain mail is high density, unverifiable), and given that his muscle tissue is probably twice as dense as the best human specimen (given his strength and resistance to disease and injury), which also would've slowed any entry from said gunshots (this is from an abstract I didn't want to pay for...)
Increased tissue density retards the bullet's speed and more ... For exam- ple, while the energy absorbed by both liver and muscle may be ...
links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0002-936X(197710)77%3A10%3C1589%3AETTOGW%3E2.0.CO%3B2-H -

So given all these factors and that Cap was moments away from immediate trauma care, has the best human body in the world as well as denser muscle tissue and chain mail, I just don't quite get how he died...

[redstatecap]

That is an extremely good point. I myself brought this point up on another board. For simplicity's sake I'll post links to a couple of my pertinent posts:
www.comicboards.com/camb/view.php?rpl=070501035154
www.comicboards.com/camb/view.php?rpl=070502020953

I'm undecided on whether this issue represents a "clue," or is simply another example of poor research by Ed Brubaker.

RSC

[imperiusrex]

redstatecap said:

That is an extremely good point. I myself brought this point up on another board. For simplicity's sake I'll post links to a couple of my pertinent posts:
www.comicboards.com/camb/view.php?rpl=070501035154
www.comicboards.com/camb/view.php?rpl=070502020953

I'm undecided on whether this issue represents a "clue," or is simply another example of poor research by Ed Brubaker.

RSC

Between you and Tana I don't have to post half the time as you have both hit the same points I have with smarts and eloquence. I am quite impressed by your knowledge of firepower, tho'...

[redstatecap]

Thanks. I've shot high-power rifle competition occasionally, which is probably why the assassination scene strikes me as poorly researched.

RSC

[Doctor Doom]

I'll tkae a look into it but for the record, Cap's restraints dampened his powers so super human endurance etc would have been useless.

[redstatecap]

docdoom said:

I'll tkae a look into it but for the record, Cap's restraints dampened his powers so super human endurance etc would have been useless.

We're not really talking about "super-human." We're talking about gunshot wounds that are highly survivable by any normal human.

RSC

[imperiusrex]

docdoom said:

I'll tkae a look into it but for the record, Cap's restraints dampened his powers so super human endurance etc would have been useless.

I can't imagine once they started medical procedures they left any sort of biochemical restraints on him...
That would just be stupid.
Seeing as how he was at a courthouse and a high profile case where the threat of accident or injury was a significant risk, medical help was probably less than five minutes away.

[balok]

Would the EMTs necessarily have the ability to remove them? They'd be locked on, after all. And the folks with the keys are probably the sort of folks that take orders real well, but not much else. They wouldn't agree to remove the restraints unless ordered to by someone they recognize as an authority.

The lower torso has *a lot* of blood vessels and some of them are quite large. The abdominal aorta, common iliac arteries, hepatic artery, portal vein, inferior vena cava... If these get torn, you bleed out in a big hurry. You can lose enough blood to die from a tear in the abdominal aorta, for example, in a few minutes. The kidneys, liver, and visera (large and small bowels) are richly supplied with blood and bleed freely if gashed.

I didn't read the run-up to the issue, so I don't know where Sharon got the gun - whether it was a standard issue shotgun or something cooked up by the Red Skull (perhaps with extra power) for this purpose.

Ultimately, though? He's dead 'cause that's what Brubaker and Quesada, poor custodians of the character that they are, wanted.

[imperiusrex]

balok said:

Would the EMTs necessarily have the ability to remove them? They'd be locked on, after all. And the folks with the keys are probably the sort of folks that take orders real well, but not much else. They wouldn't agree to remove the restraints unless ordered to by someone they recognize as an authority.

The lower torso has *a lot* of blood vessels and some of them are quite large. The abdominal aorta, common iliac arteries, hepatic artery, portal vein, inferior vena cava... If these get torn, you bleed out in a big hurry. You can lose enough blood to die from a tear in the abdominal aorta, for example, in a few minutes. The kidneys, liver, and visera (large and small bowels) are richly supplied with blood and bleed freely if gashed.

I didn't read the run-up to the issue, so I don't know where Sharon got the gun - whether it was a standard issue shotgun or something cooked up by the Red Skull (perhaps with extra power) for this purpose.

Ultimately, though? He's dead 'cause that's what Brubaker and Quesada, poor custodians of the character that they are, wanted.

In fairness, there would likely have to be a supervisor of some sort there. You're transporting Captain America, after all, not some third rate villain like the Porcupine...
Why there weren't a hundred agents all around searching every possible nook and cranny for opportunists waiting to take a shot at America's living legend and such a high profile figure is something I didn't even bother to bring up.
If the gun was "extra powered" isn't that the sort of detail that should be explained?
And besides, Steve's body is a medical marvel. It works better than any other body on the planet. Every facet of it is better than any other person. For all intents and purposes, it works just about perfectly, which means in every probability chart, Steve is at the top of it.
What's the longest someone can possibly live with a ruptured artery? However long it is, give Cap considerably more. Don't forget it's been established that some severe shocks (such as freezing in a block of ice for several decades) sends his body into hibernation as opposed to ceasing life functions.
Normal human bodies don't do that.
His does.
His body just works a lot better, much better, unbelievably better.
This is Marvel canon, not sour grapes.
I just think it was a poorly executed idea, designed to put Cap into the strata of American heroes who die by the sniper's hand (the Kennedys, King et al) and evoke that kind of imagery.
I myself find that both distasteful and pointless because eventually Cap will come back in some form or other.

[balok]

You raise some valid points. I suppose about all I can do is tell you to read the book - maybe whatever Brubaker has cooked up will explain it. I doubt it, but don't go by me - I'm quite cynical about Marvel now.

[Nutcase65]

These gunshot points have indeed been brought up in other places. I used to be a Paramedic and have seen much worse. These were definitely survivable even with simple human physiology.

Just another reason why I'm sure it will come out that the real Cap is not dead.

Have to agree with the skepticism shown by brother Blalok