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Post by Doctor Doom on May 24, 2007 14:38:05 GMT -5
Hey. This will be very detailed as a lot happened and it was an awesome issue.
Doom's Deconstruction: Sharon Carter, "The Woman Who Killed Captain America" walks down a street with The Contessa and tells her what happened 5 days ago, on the day after Cap's death. Basically, she has an argument with a rather beaten and conciliatory Tony Stark as they discover Cap's body has deteriorated to the state it would be in without the super soldier serum- old and wimpy. Sharon gets enraged even as Stark gets more wretched, and she slaps him when he points out that seeing him like this hurts him as much as her. We then disocver she resigned and Sharon tells The Contessa that she doesn't care much about life without SHIELD... when it's life without Steve.
At the wake in a pakced bar, the Falcon remnicises and meets Sharon- others there include Dugan and The Thing. Rick Jones speaks with Sharon briefly, and it is mentioned that Falcon made quite a speech at Cap's funeral. Rick awkwardly tries to talk with Sharon and says he's sitting with the Pyms. Sharon briefly sees Wonder Man and Ms Marvel on her way to the bathroom, where we realise she can't tell anyone that she killed Cap.
The Falcon makes his excuses and flies around thinking about how it felt wierd to be with all the pro-reg heroes at the wake, before realising that everyone on both sides is grieving for Cap. We learn that people across the country are holding vigils, no matter what side of the issue they're on, and Falcon reflects that Cap would be proud of that.
The Red Skull watches with Sin from his penthouse. Sin is angry that they aren't mentioning Crossbones on the news as she thinks he should be given credit. The Skull doesn't care and says he'll be rewarded and they should bask in victory later, for now he wants Sin to move on with her "subordinates" (I'm betting Serpent Squad for next issue's ending!) We learn Skull has been having some psychology with Doc Faustus because he has two minds, and they both get into an ego battle. Zola interrupts and tells them he has made progress- he appears to have some sort of machine which will open "time itself" to them. Skull gets pissy and tells them that no, it's not "them", it's HIM. This is ALL Skull, and they shouldn't forget it.
Meanwhile Falcon has joined the NA at a secret wake. He has, it emerges, registered so he could attend the funeral, and will patrol Harlem and be left alone by SHIELD. They talk about Tony at the funeral and say they almost felt bad for him, but Falcon points out he didn't kill Cap. Cage blames it on Tony anyway, but Spidey says no, it wasn't that Cap had lost heart- he was wearing strength dampening resistraints which is what meant he couldn't break out or escape, and he moved into the shot himself. They have a toast "to the best of them", but Falcon is called out by a beeper.
Winter Soldier sits in a bar, reflecting. There is some talk about Cap and a guy basically calls him a traitor. WS reflects that if Cap were here, he'd debate. He then kicks the guy in the fce thinking that HE is not Cap. Giant bar brawl ensues. It's very obvious WS is just taking out all his rage and grief on these people and beats up the bar. At last, he realises Steve would be ashamed of him and he has nothing left, and he actually starts to cry a bit. Falcon arrives and they talk- Falcon was sent by Fury. WS then sees Stark at Cap's funeral on TV- Stark says "It wasn't... it wasn't supposed to be like this..." and then starts to cry and is unable to continue, and walks away. WS then says that maybe he can't be thje hero he wants to be but he suddenly knows what he has to do... he's going to kill Tony Stark.
End issue.
The View of Doom: This was an awesome issue. I don't care WHAT anyone says about it being a gimmick or anything else, as far as I'm concerned Brubaker's Cap has consistently been among the best books on the stand and The Death Of The Dream is leaving EVERY other comic book in it's dust. A CRAPLOT happened in this one issue which took place over only a few hours, if that, and yet it tells us so much about all involved and Steve himself.
I loved the duel wakes. What's great about this is that it IS unbiased. Falcon doesn't have self righteous anger at the pro-reg heroes, he realises NEITHER side wanted this and BOTH sides miss Captain America. We also see a plethora of characters- The Contessa and Rick Jones were welcome additions, and others were name-dropped or shown in passing, which was also cool. The raw reactions felt very real- the New Avengers in particular seemed authentic. We see continued bitterness from the civil war and a Falcon/NA meeting I really wanted to see for some time, but it's not presented in a "THIS is what happened..." way, it's a "This is what these characters feel, and this is why..." This brief segment actually said much more to me than the entire Fallen Son special dedicated to these reactions.
I have from the start been an unabashed lover of the Red Skull as written by Brubaker.. He simply "gets" the character. He writes the best Skull I've ever read, scheming, nefarious, evil and downright scary. It's impossible not to be a little thrilled by his whole plan- we've seen him gloat before when victory seemed within his grasp, but now he has KILLED CAPTAIN AMERICA and he's still not done, he's still totally focused, and that is definitely worth being scared of. I'm very interested to see what his group will do in the timestream- hopefully nothing crap that will end up bringing back Cap- and also love the fragmenting of his little click already- and his total obsession with it being HIM, HIS victory, HIS master plan.
The very brief section with the vigils being held across the country was also quite moving, because Falcon says it all- again, it doesn't matter WHAT side you were on, this was Captain America. His death has united people of both sides briefly... and he would have been proud of that. Brubaker also writes a great Stark- the opening scene shows us how raw Sharon's feelings are, and Stark is not manipulative, evil or machivellian... he is genuinely incredibly upset at the death of his friend and when Sharon slaps him, the reader is not- and is not supposed to be- behind her, yet we know why she did it. He's wrong, it's NOT affecting them equally... but he can't know that, he does not know what she has done.
The Bucky scene worked much better for me personally than the scene with a similar idea with the Mighty Avengers in Fallen Son. It's more in character and we follow his thoughts with each punch and kick... and can't help feeling huge sympathy for him as he actually almost breaks down, and realises Cap would be ashamed of him. No matter how much you hate Tony Stark, it's very clear that when he declares he's going to kill Stark, it's not because Stark deserves it or anything like that... it's because he's picking a target he can hit, trying to lash out and he's found something to lash out to, and it should be a VERY interesting story. This also leads me to the brief glimpse we see of the Funeral (seen in it's entirety in Fallen Son 5). I really loved what we saw of Tony there and couldn't help but feel for the guy... everything he did was to avoid just this, and it's impossible not to feel sympathy.
Doom Declares That This Issue Shalt Be Given.... Ten Gold Dooms Out Of Ten. There's just no other way of putting it. If Cap's death is solely a gimmick, it's the best executed gimmick I have ever seen which fits logically into the book and which leaves the book far from directionless. In fact, I do believe I am much much more into the book now than I ever was when Cap was alive. If The Death Of The Dream continues like this, it will secure it's place in Cap lore and legend just like Winter Soldier before it, and Brubaker's already nigh legendary reputation in the annals of Cap history will be cemented.
The best Marvel book since Civil War #7 in the best series on the stands.
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Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on May 24, 2007 15:18:59 GMT -5
I agree with you Doomy, this was a great issue. Bucky's bar scene particularly.
I still am conflicted on whether I should feel any sympathy for Strak whatsoever. Even if he is "hurting" with the death of someone he might have called a friend... I am still pretty sure it was of his own making. He can say its not what he wanted, all he wants, but that doesn't mean Mr. Futurist didn't know it would happen, and pressed on anyway. I love how things are already starting to turn on him, throughout Marveldom. From Shulkie, to Sharon Carter, et al... people are seeing through Tony, and its obvious this Marvel is already laying the groundwork to head back to normalcy... and I think WWH is going to be the what brings it all to boil. Then whatever follow up even to WWH, will be what brings it all to an end, and brings Cap back.
Even in the latest FF, Reed and Sue talking about things (as usual), and Tony is almost marginalized. Basically they are saying "ok, it had to happen" ...you have to break some eggs to make an omelete, I guess, right?... "but now is the chance to do some lasting good"... and I don't get the feeling its strengthing Tony's well laid out plan.
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Post by Doctor Doom on May 24, 2007 15:23:44 GMT -5
I don't think that's strictly true, Tone-Loc. It's not Sharon turning on Tony, it's made clear before she never really cared about him one way or the other and this has pushed her. And Shulkie is equally turning against Strange, who is a member of the Resistance!
I don't think you can really say Stark expected it to happen. I think between this and Fallen Son 3 and "The Confession" we're seeing that Cap's death has affected Tony more than almost anyone. He said it right there at the end of the confession; for all his ideals, his brave new world and all he has created, he would take it all back... if it brought back Cap.
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Post by Nutcase65 on May 24, 2007 15:29:49 GMT -5
I don't think that's strictly true, Tone-Loc. It's not Sharon turning on Tony, it's made clear before she never really cared about him one way or the other and this has pushed her. And Shulkie is equally turning against Strange, who is a member of the Resistance! I don't think you can really say Stark expected it to happen. I think between this and Fallen Son 3 and "The Confession" we're seeing that Cap's death has affected Tony more than almost anyone. He said it right there at the end of the confession; for all his ideals, his brave new world and all he has created, he would take it all back... if it brought back Cap. thats the only time I felt for Stark during the whole thing.
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Post by Doctor Doom on May 24, 2007 15:32:07 GMT -5
thats the only time I felt for Stark during the whole thing. The mere fact that you did with the almnost laughably insane and undeserved level of hatred directed towards Stark online says a considerable amount about that writer's skills. Oh Wait.... it was BENDIS! Anyway, lotsa folk dropped this just on principle. I feel real sorry for you guys missing out on one of the best marvel stories ever. Ah well...
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Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on May 24, 2007 15:36:50 GMT -5
Poor choice of word/phrase on my part. I mean to make reference to defectors from the cause, regardless of reason (for leaving, or for being there in the first place). It just seems he's finding more and more detractors on his side of the aisle.
Is it just me, or does every story in Marvel with a confrontation/argument/converstaion with, or about, Tony Stark seem to have the "Tony's a Futurist" rationalization argument in it?
To me it's safe to say that if he could see a bad future, and he could develop a plan to change that future, then he could see all the end result(s) of his plan as well. Yeah, he feels guilt for Cap dying, but I am willing to bet its in large part due to the fact that he knew it would probably happen. He didn't want it to happen, but you know he had to see the possibility. He knew Cap would oppose him, he knew what Cap's basis for opposition would be. He knows that Cap was right, but he knows he had to do something that isn't necessarily right for the greater good in his mind.
Yeah, he said he wished he could take it all back, but I am sure it would only be as a Mulligan. Plus, people with guilty consciences say alot of things to themselves to help ease their own pain, but that doesn't mean they would necessarily change their ways, or shy away from what they thought was the right thing to do. God, don't tell me Tony would forsake his own idea of what is right, and by his logic and predictions... d**n the world at large, just to save the life of one friend. That would make me have even more contempt for him than I have already grown to hold for the character. what little sliver of respect I have for him is rooted in both his pain for the death of Cap, and the fact that he made a hard choice for what he thought was Right (ultimately a value that Cap himself would respect). I just think he was wrong, and he made himself a villain to prove himself right.
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Post by Doctor Doom on May 24, 2007 15:39:59 GMT -5
Well we'll just have to disagree there Tone-Loc because I think it's very clear Iron Man was hellebnt on making sure Cap DIDN'T die... a lot more than Cap cared about Tony. I mean even besides The Confession and his brief funeral speech we have NA 24, where it is very clear he has convinced himself and is trying to convince Sentry that they can win it without Cap dying.
I don't think Tony's a villain, I think he's the biggest hero at Marvel right now... and I think that's destroying him.
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Post by Nutcase65 on May 24, 2007 15:42:50 GMT -5
thats the only time I felt for Stark during the whole thing. The mere fact that you did with the almnost laughably insane and undeserved level of hatred directed towards Stark online says a considerable amount about that writer's skills. Oh Wait.... it was BENDIS! you dont need to play the Bendis card with me,... I'm not anti-Bendis. I'm anti-crap,... I would dislike crap if Stan the Man shovled it. It just happens that Bendis shovels a larger load.
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Post by Alchemist-X on May 24, 2007 15:47:42 GMT -5
I felt for Tony right at the end of Cap 26, when He broke down and admited, it wasn't supposed to be this way on the Televised Funeral.
Now for the Truth.
I have NEVER read a single issue of Captain America before #25, I was just never a big Cap fan, and I could get enough Cap in other titles that I've gotten over the years. But after reading 25 and 26, I think I'll stick along for a while, the Red Skull's impending victory interests me.
Plus I think it'll be fun if they have an issue coming up along the lines of "Tony Stark Must Die" or maybe "Stark's Marked".
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Post by Nutcase65 on May 24, 2007 15:50:14 GMT -5
if you read that last post before I modified it, sorry for it being confusing. Having to re-learn the quote feature
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Post by Doctor Doom on May 24, 2007 15:53:27 GMT -5
I felt for Tony right at the end of Cap 26, when He broke down and admited, it wasn't supposed to be this way on the Televised Funeral. Now for the Truth. I have NEVER read a single issue of Captain America before #25, I was just never a big Cap fan, and I could get enough Cap in other titles that I've gotten over the years. But after reading 25 and 26, I think I'll stick along for a while, the Red Skull's impending victory interests me. Plus I think it'll be fun if they have an issue coming up along the lines of "Tony Stark Must Die" or maybe "Stark's Marked". Rectify it all at once. Buy the giant Cap omnibus of all 25 issues coming out soon. You will then have the best Cap run and story ever in your hands and can be forgiven.
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Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on May 24, 2007 15:56:43 GMT -5
Well we'll just have to disagree there Tone-Loc because I think it's very clear Iron Man was hellebnt on making sure Cap DIDN'T die... a lot more than Cap cared about Tony. I mean even besides The Confession and his brief funeral speech we have NA 24, where it is very clear he has convinced himself and is trying to convince Sentry that they can win it without Cap dying. I don't think Tony's a villain, I think he's the biggest hero at Marvel right now... and I think that's destroying him. Why does the Yoda/Obi-Wan lesson on "From a Certain Point of View" suddenly leap to mind right now? IMHO, obsessed people tell themselves and others whatever they need to hear to justify that obsession or need. Tony, believed that what he was doing was necessary to avoid massive tragedy. he was obsessed with this vision of his, and his plan to ensure that it never came to pass.
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Post by Nutcase65 on May 24, 2007 15:59:34 GMT -5
Well we'll just have to disagree there Tone-Loc because I think it's very clear Iron Man was hellebnt on making sure Cap DIDN'T die... a lot more than Cap cared about Tony. I mean even besides The Confession and his brief funeral speech we have NA 24, where it is very clear he has convinced himself and is trying to convince Sentry that they can win it without Cap dying. I don't think Tony's a villain, I think he's the biggest hero at Marvel right now... and I think that's destroying him. Why does the Yoda/Obi-Wan lesson on "From a Certain Point of View" suddenly leap to mind right now? IMHO, obsessed people tell themselves and others whatever they need to hear to justify that obsession or need. Tony, believed that what he was doing was necessary to avoid massive tragedy. he was obsessed with this vision of his, and his plan to ensure that it never came to pass. also there's no telling if they were able to prevent the 'vision' from still being able to occur.
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Post by Doctor Doom on May 24, 2007 16:34:26 GMT -5
Well to return to topic...
....AWESOME issue... If you even remotely like Cap, this book is worth buying and you hurt only yourself by not!
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Post by balok on May 24, 2007 17:17:41 GMT -5
Doggonit, Doom! Stop almost persuading me to buy books when I'm trying to send Marvel a message! Tone-Loc makes a valid point. Once we humans decide on a course of action, then we have an amazing capacity for persuading ourselves it was the right course of action, sometimes when everyone all around us can see otherwise. This is why I believe there exist certain moral absolutes (although I don't believe there are as many as some folks believe there are). And I believe that one of those is, you'd better have an excellent reason to curtain folks' freedoms. That means they better have actually done something wrong, and not just, they might someday do something wrong. This is the error I believe Tony makes in supporting the SHRA - it punishes people for what they might do. It would be interesting if events in Cap led to the death of Tony Stark. It would suggest that Marvel is attempting to do what Julius Schwartz did back in the day - craft a new stable of heroes, and either kill or retire some of the older crowd. Of course, Tony's death would be no more permanent than Rogers' death - but both will probably last until Quesada leaves the center seat (however that happens).
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Post by redstatecap on May 24, 2007 22:35:40 GMT -5
I browsed the issue at the shop yesterday, and I found it easily Mr. Brubaker's weakest issue since #10. I read it out of curiousity, but it was such a bore that I won't even bother Byrne-stealing this book in the future. First, Dr. Faustas has been a major plot factor for several issues now, and as yet there has been no explanation as to how his brains got funnelled back into his head after Jack Monroe emptied them onto the sidewalk -- on-panel -- fifteen years ago. Second, despite his presence with the New Avengers, Hawkeye is once again a non-factor when it comes to panel-time. Quite frankly, Hawkeye should be right up there with Sharon, Sam, and "Bucky" when it comes to characters who should be focussed on regarding Cap's death. But it doesn't happen. Third, Sam gets complimented three or four times for the "great speech." What great speech? Show, don't tell. Doesn't Mr. Brubaker have the chops to write a great eulogy that actually gets delivered on-panel in his book, about his main character? Fourth, where's the funeral in his book, for the character he killed? It's a cop-out. Fifth, anyone who seriously believes that "Bucky" is going to do anything permanent to Tony Stark is delusional. The threat will be milked for some time, then some pretext will come along to deflect him from his purpose, and it will be allowed to quietly blow over. It's hype. Sixth...oh yeah, no Cap. On the positive side, Mr. Brubaker does usually write excellent dialogue, and this issue is no exception. But that's about the extent of the praise I have for it -- that and the usual very good art. It's a weak issue. Missed opportunities and cop-outs abound.
RSC
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Post by Doctor Doom on May 25, 2007 10:44:41 GMT -5
First, Dr. Faustas has been a major plot factor for several issues now, and as yet there has been no explanation as to how his brains got funnelled back into his head after Jack Monroe emptied them onto the sidewalk -- on-panel -- fifteen years ago. You say "major plot factor"< ignoring of course that he has onyl been on-panel as Doctor Faustus for two pages prior to this issue which had him for... what? Two more? Wow. Definitely NO explaining to be done there! Well I'd say even at best he'd be behind those you mentioned but it's great to see you're not judging Brubaker based on what he had no control over! That stuff is for Avengers, Sharon Falcon and Bucky are for Cap. Several counters to that. Firstly, it's beyond his control anyway as we'll get into in a minute. Second, even if it wasn't, I'd admire what he did. The speech means much more when we DON'T get to see it as our imgination fills the gap. NO-ONE could write an appropriate speech to encompass everything that should be there- not you, not Joe Simon, not Ed Brubaker. No, it's not. He's trying to move on with the story, which is admirable, PLUS editorial dictation means the funeral is happening in a book you refuse to read. Just because he killed him he is not required to have his funeral in the same book. Really? Well that's DEFINITELY a criticism. I mean, I bet that NO CHARACTER has EVER declared something we know they won't do again! Hell, why bother have villains even say they'll kill the heroes any more, we know they won't! (except Red Skull of course) This is a worthless critcisim which smacks of never having read comics at all! These are NOT criticisms. These are minor nitpicks you are whining about because you have convinced yourself killing Cap was a bad idea and you will automatically dislike any issue without him on principle to support your own narrow minded viewpoint.
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Post by redstatecap on May 25, 2007 11:12:21 GMT -5
You say "major plot factor"< ignoring of course that he has onyl been on-panel as Doctor Faustus for two pages prior to this issue which had him for... what? Two more? Wow. Definitely NO explaining to be done there! Dr. Faustas brainwashed Sharon. Sharon (apparently) killed Cap. Therefore Dr. Faustas has a major plot role in the death of Cap. He's a major plot actor, whether he's had a lot of panel time or not, and it still hasn't been explained how he isn't dead. If Hawkeye "is for the Avengers" then how is it Mr. Brubaker got access to Iron Man, or Cage for use in his book? What kind of long-term personal relationship does Cage have with Cap to justify the panel-time? Clearly, if Mr. Brubaker had asked, he would have been given Hawkeye to use. His only concession would have perhaps been to not spoil "the big Ronin reveal." lol "The speech that we don't see means more." Total cop-out. I suppose Captain America's own deserved reputation for speech-making would also be enhanced if, you know, he never actually made speeches on-panel, and we were just told that he made speeches. I can see you now: "Wow! Great speech! I don't know what was said, or what it was about, but darn, it was effective!" Or, for example, supervillains would seem far more threatening if we never saw any on-panel destruction, we were just told that there was destruction. "Show, don't tell." I guess I should be amused that Ed Brubaker's biggest fanboy doesn't think he has the chops to write a good eulogy. Because, hey, I think he does -- he just chose not to. He should be prepared to write the story that entails from his decision. If he isn't prepared, he shouldn't do it. Actually my criticism is directed more at the fans who think this is more than it is. It's boilerplate hype and yet I see various squealing fanboys gushing all over it. And likewise you are doing your standard bow-and-scrape to Marvel because anything Marvel does must be a good idea. RSC
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Post by Doctor Doom on May 25, 2007 11:53:22 GMT -5
Dr. Faustas brainwashed Sharon. Sharon (apparently) killed Cap. Therefore Dr. Faustas has a major plot role in the death of Cap. He's a major plot actor, whether he's had a lot of panel time or not, and it still hasn't been explained how he isn't dead. That doesn't change the fact that this is clearly a poor criticism as he has not had time DEVOTED to him. He does indeed have a major role. This is a nine part storyline we don't always get answers in part one, y'know. Firstly, Cage has the relationship with Falcon and secondly originally this book would have come out before New Avengers 30 and thus they did not wish to spoil the surprise whcih in ANY case gets an ENTIRE ISSUE dedicated to it- it's just that you refuse to get that issue, remember? WEow, and if any of those arguments were really relevant it would help your case even more! You not only ignored the fact that we're probably going to see this speech, but you refuse to even consider it as a dramatic tool. I guess I should be amused that I, who buy exactly one of Brubaker's 5 books a month, am apparantly his biggest fanboy. And hey, I don't think ANYONE could write a good enough eulogy for Cap. And I have no doubt that whatever he wrote, you'd find unsatisfactory. Maybe you're just mad you have one less thing to bash. He is. The funeral is a minor part that does not advance said story. So? Let 'em. Why does that make the issue itself any worse? I can be absolutely certain neither Wonder Man nor ms marvel will die despite their fight in the next Ms Marvel, it does not automatically ruin the book. Really? I'm willing to bet I've said more negative about current marvel than you've said positive. CLEARLY you have not read many of my comments on, say, New Avengers or Disassembled or JMS' Fantastic Four. And what is Marvel's biggest event of the year? Even a cursory look would tell you I'm no major fan of World War Hulk and hate the Hulk's character. But no no, I MUST be mindlessly bowing and scraping to Marvel because the mere idea that ANYONE could enjoy what you don't is of course SHOCKINGLY out of line. It constantly amuses me for example, how every single prediction you ever make is suddenly confirmed to be RIGHT> I don't think I've EVER seen you predict an issue to be bad and found it ANY different from what you claimed, and often the criticisms after reading it are IDENTICAL to what you said beforehand. So either you're a complete prophet with a 100% record... or you are actually *shock* making up your mind somewhat before ever trying them? Naa! Not RSC! NEVER!
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Post by Doctor Doom on May 25, 2007 14:39:33 GMT -5
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Post by thew40 on May 25, 2007 15:00:20 GMT -5
I'm fairly certain we'll see the actual funeral for Cap in "Fallen Son: whateveritscalled: Acceptance."
~W~
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Post by Alchemist-X on May 25, 2007 16:03:26 GMT -5
It doesn't matter if he Kills Stark, its all about Trying to Kill Stark.
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Post by thew40 on May 25, 2007 16:26:16 GMT -5
It doesn't matter if he Kills Stark, its all about Trying to Kill Stark. Exactly. It's not so much about the act of revenge, but the emotional release of it. RSC (no offense), a lot of arguements fall a little short to me. You have to remember that this is only the second part of nine. There are seven more parts to this story. And beyond that, there's also five tie-ins ("Fallen Son"), the three "Avengers" titles (which are dealing with the death of Cap -- more NA than Mighty), and the "Intiative" titles, which (I believe) are also dealing with the fallout of Cap's death. I'll grant that this issue wasn't the best, though. It's sad, but I spent too much time thinking just how in the world it all fits together. ~W~
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Post by Tana Nile on May 25, 2007 20:11:35 GMT -5
I thought this was a very solid story. I especially liked the segment on Falcon, and how he is trying to walk that fine line of being a registered hero, yet still supporting the New Avengers. I can't help but think he feels a responsibility to them, as he was so very close to Cap for so many years. It will be interesting to see how this plays out, as I wouldn't be surprised if he is being watched closely by SHIELD. The Winter Soldier scenes were perfect. Ws's frustration and anger are all understandable, and this probably would have worked better for the Fallen Son:Anger issue than the Avengers story we got. I'm pretty intrigued by the Skull's plan. Time travel? Yikes, nothing good can come of this!
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Post by redstatecap on May 25, 2007 23:50:08 GMT -5
That doesn't change the fact that this is clearly a poor criticism as he has not had time DEVOTED to him. He does indeed have a major role. This is a nine part storyline we don't always get answers in part one, y'know. That is exactly my point -- Faustas has not had time devoted to explaining how he isn't dead, before he became a major player. That is a perfectly valid criticism. And we're not just talking about part 1 of a 9-issue arc. Faustas has been back since issue #22. That's three full issues (in which nothing much happened anyways) to give a one- or two-page explanation of how he isn't dead, and it hasn't happened. Hawkeye has been known to be alive since the end of HoM, so there is nothing to spoil there. So they didn't want to spoil the "Clint-is-Ronin" reveal. (ROTFLMAO! But I digress.) OK, that's cool. Have him meet outside the context of the New Avengers -- problem solved. In fact, they could even have met at the "official" wake and simply called it the period of time represented by "Fallen Son #3" where Hawkeye was back and taking the Cap suit for a spin. I love it when you dismiss arguments you don't like by "handwavium." If we see this so-called "great speech," it probably isn't going to be in Cap's book, and it probably isn't going to be written by Ed Brubaker. Telling us about a great speech off-panel is just like Squirrel Girl telling us she beat Thanos, off-panel. No, really, she did. Now, can leaving certain things unsaid be a dramatic tool? Certainly. But in this case, no. The funeral must be on panel. If Sam's great speech gets referenced, it must be on panel. They are too integral to the story to be left to imagine what might or might not have happened. Because you're every Marvel writer's biggest fanboy? No. Ed Brubaker's greatest strength is dialogue. I don't doubt he is talented enough to write a good speech. But from your perspective, if there had been a speech, it would be great that there was a speech. If (as it happened) there was no speech, it would be great that there was no speech. If Sam recited the "The Cat in the Hat" from memory, you would be calling it daring and appropriate. "The funeral [of Captain America] is a minor part that does not advance said story." I think I'll let the ridiculousness of that statement speak for itself. WWHulk hasn't even started yet, but perhaps if it features nonsensical plots and stunningly bad characterization, you will find it more to your tastes that you initially thought. So keep an open mind! No, I think you mindlessly bow and scrape because you're a typical comic fan and that's rather typical behavior for comic fans. So don't think I'm singling you out. I'll be frank here. Comic books are not rocket science. Comic book writers are, with very few exceptions, not particularly talented people. Far from it in fact. Comic books are thus rather predictable, if you actually engage the brain that God gave you and take a closer look at the stories, rather than being a good little fanboy and buying the hype. RSC
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Post by Nutcase65 on May 26, 2007 6:36:47 GMT -5
Wouldn't it be less confusing if you were just RSC? People get smited for changing their names.
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Post by Nutcase65 on May 26, 2007 7:22:17 GMT -5
(note this post takes place 15 minutes after the last one. I thought of something else I am not stacking my posts,.. seriously that hurt ) Anyhow, to address some of your points from my perspective As to Dr Faustus, I agree with you about their needs to be an explanation about how he got his' head together'. But I think this isn't as big an issue as it seems. In Cap more than any other book we see the continuing bad-guy cloning saga. I believe we've seen, over time, the re-introduction of Arnim Zola for a few issues a little while back. Well, where goes Arnim also comes clones. That is probably your answer. As for the funeral, I have to wholeheartedly agree with RSC here. They definitely should have funeral coverage in Cap's own book. That is not an unreasonable expectation. If the only coverage for Superman's death had been in Batman comics, there would be dissappointment. Same as this case. As for Bucky, I am sure we'll get to a point where Winter Soldier has Stark in his crosshairs and something happens, possibly the intervention of Stark's Cap, or even a re-appearance of Cap himself. Whatever, I am almost sure that we'll see a panel with Stark in the crosshairs.
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Post by redstatecap on May 26, 2007 7:49:10 GMT -5
As to Dr Faustus, I agree with you about their needs to be an explanation about how he got his' head together'. But I think this isn't as big an issue as it seems. In Cap more than any other book we see the continuing bad-guy cloning saga. I believe we've seen, over time, the re-introduction of Arnim Zola for a few issues a little while back. Well, where goes Arnim also comes clones. That is probably your answer. I don't think this will be the case. On another board, when asked about the Skull's "death," Mr. Brubaker used words to the effect that "clones as a plot device are stupid." Which was why the (cloned) Skull got offed. Now to me that begs the question of how clones are any dumber than cosmic cube soul transferrance and brain-sharing. But that seems to be how Mr. Brubaker sees it. If Cap's death was foisted on Ed Brubaker, I can see an attitude of "you deal with it." However, Mr. Brubaker was the proponent of this, and he should have demanded all the major plot points occur in his title. Ten years from now when people are reading back issues, they'll wonder why there's no funeral in the main title, and why it's in some weak miniseries. Yeah, you're probably right. He's already had Lukin in the crosshairs, and Mr. Brubaker found a convenient if unbelievable excuse for why it didn't go down. RSC
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Post by balok on May 26, 2007 12:51:24 GMT -5
Brubaker may regard clones as a particularly dumb device because the last time Marvel published a story that depended on clones, they bungled it (the Clone Saga).
The funeral should have been in Cap's book. Doing it any other way does a disservice to the main book.
I skimmed the book in the store. It was interesting enough. Like Brubaker's X-Men outing (about which I wrote elsewhere), there's a lot going on and you really need to have read a lot of the previous issues to understand this one. Certainly Brubaker is good at dialogue. The book moved slowly, because there are a great main plot threads woven through it. In the end, I didn't purchase it because I decided it wasn't good enough to break my nearly complete Marvel ban. While Epting's art was quite nice, something about his take on the Red Skull irritates me, but I can't put my finger on what.
Doc Doom gave these guys access to his time travel technology? That seems unlike the Lord of Latveria.
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Post by von Bek on May 26, 2007 13:36:51 GMT -5
If Cap's death was foisted on Ed Brubaker, I can see an attitude of "you deal with it." However, Mr. Brubaker was the proponent of this, and he should have demanded all the major plot points occur in his title. Ten years from now when people are reading back issues, they'll wonder why there's no funeral in the main title, and why it's in some weak miniseries. RSC I don´t think Ed Brubaker can demand that. The Fallen Son mini was JMS idea, probably he and Joe Q thought that the funeral belonged in the 'event' mini series. Brubaker doesn´t have all that influence at Marvel (and over the editors) that you think he has.
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