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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 7, 2007 20:39:45 GMT -5
Did the Skull see the war coming, or have a hand in causing it? When you think about it, that's a really good question. Skull has influenced government decisions in the past to monkey with what Cap holds dear Toying with American freedom would be a good way for the Skull to start Cap suffering. Skull would also love to play havok with the ranks of SHIELD as seems to be happening. It is entirely possible, probable even.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 8, 2007 4:44:34 GMT -5
Naa, I'm pretty certain he would have mentioned it to one of his compatriots if he had. Plus we have no idea how many spies and informers etc he has anywhere remotely NEAR enough to persuade something like 95% of Congress to vote for a law.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 8, 2007 7:08:11 GMT -5
he influences event s and has proven to be a major manipulator of political change.
I didn't say he is the cause, I just see him being able to influence eventa against cap AND be a major instigator within the SHIELD rank and file.
I can even see Agent Hill being in his stable.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 8, 2007 8:21:09 GMT -5
No way. In fact, since this volume started we've heard barely anything about his government control- the only instance I can think of is getting Cap's court to be this place in fact. I think you're overestimating just how much control he has. Agent Hill? WAAAAAAAY too far.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 8, 2007 8:41:07 GMT -5
Overestimate the Skull!?!?!?!?
Doom your delusions go to far. You are a world class badguy, but the Skull has been a master manipulator forever.
This is the guy that manipulated a congressional sub-comittee to force cap out of his uniform and then manipulated the same situation to put a psycho, who he knew would crack, into the job. All to discredit and destroy the image of Captain America before he planned to kill him.
The same Skull who took over a major corporate head and started massive economical takeovers.
The same Skull who has repeatedly influenced government officials in his drive to destroy Cap, and who has great animosity toward SHIELD
I didn't say Hill was in his stable. I said I wouldn't be surprised. and just to point out. There have been several instances of folks working for him who didn't even know it.
What would the Skull consider a victory? Destroy anything Cap loves Bust up the Avengers- done Get Cap involved in widespread destrustion- done Get Cap arrested- done Make it so people don't trust heroes- done Put Caps friends at each other's throats- done See Cap dead- done(we'll see)
not saying he did all of these things himself, but I am willing to bet that we will see, in future reading that he had a part in agitating several of these, and I'll bet we'll surely see him behind a lot of Govt. instigation and a major part of SHIELDS problems.
But at this point there is no point in arguing. In a few months either you'll get to tell me you told me so, or I'll get to say it to you.
Until then dont go underestimating your fellow super viilians.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 9, 2007 4:24:15 GMT -5
Well, who'd guess our nuttie would turn out to be such a tough nut to crack...
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 9, 2007 8:29:51 GMT -5
Who is this 'nuttie ' of whom you speak
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Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 9, 2007 16:18:00 GMT -5
He used to be Captain America, you know....? He loved NASCAR, Sanjaya & ninjas... Steve Rogers was just a front, but when he got offed, Nuttie smelled the coffee & moved to Tegucigalpa... Coming this summer from Marvel: the adventures of Captain Guatemala...!!!
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 9, 2007 16:27:12 GMT -5
shhhhhhhhhh,... Squirrel girl may be reading this.
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Post by balok on Apr 9, 2007 19:39:43 GMT -5
Naa, I'm pretty certain he would have mentioned it to one of his compatriots if he had. Plus we have no idea how many spies and informers etc he has anywhere remotely NEAR enough to persuade something like 95% of Congress to vote for a law. It's pretty obvious from watching them that the Congress of the United States sells itself for fine food and "fact finding" boondoggles to nice places, all provided by lobbyists in exchange for influence. Add to that the fact that rarely does a day go by when there isn't a story about Congressional corruption - outright violations of the law or ethical standards - and it's not hard to imagine a scenario where ol' Schmidty could manipulate most of them into passing a law making breathing illegal!
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 10, 2007 4:44:27 GMT -5
Perhaps I should rephrase my statement. I believ e you all drastically overestimate BRUBAKER'S skull.
We have, in 25 issues, seen one incident that I can think of of corruption mentioned in SHIELD or the US Government and controlled by the Skull when there are countless times it would have been useful. That was last issue, and it was an offhand reference. Plus throw in it was Joe Q's suggestion to write the Skull as a scheming and reasoned villain, originally Ed Brubaker was going to write him as a ranting silver age loon.
With all this, I think it VERY, VERY unlikely we'll see too much insider stuff. Plus the Skull's comments- like making sure this civil war was just the beginning of his enemies fortune, and gloating over the idiots fightying each other etc, they don't fit with that idea. If the Skull had done this, he would brag. I know you all want to believe the SHRA is orchestrated by deep foces of evil but in this case it's just not logical.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 10, 2007 16:28:45 GMT -5
but there have been plenty of times where a series have backtracked to past issues to show how corruption occered.
This has happened with Skull storylines before.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 10, 2007 17:37:20 GMT -5
Is it me, or does Doom & Nutcase seem to have switched identities here while posting...
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 10, 2007 17:56:40 GMT -5
It is just you. There is only one Doom.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 16, 2007 14:34:26 GMT -5
It is just you. There is only one Doom. But MANY dumbbots, err... doombots...
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 16, 2007 14:37:22 GMT -5
Y'know as a kid I actually wondered if there was even any actual Doom out there or if it was just ALL robots
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 17, 2007 14:46:42 GMT -5
It is just you. There is only one Doom. But MANY dumbbots, ... Thanks a lot, I love you too
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Post by scribbler357 on Apr 20, 2007 15:52:51 GMT -5
From another message board:
"The nice lady on the phone at Marvel told me that after Civil War: Fallen Son ends after five issues, that Captain America restarts at Issue No. 1 (Again!) and there will be a Captain America. She said she didn't know who would be Captain America but she also said "He's a Super-hero, he can't die." More and more this feels like a stunt as opposed to a legitimate story line. "
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Draganta
Force Works-er
AVENGERS ASSEMBLE...TO KICK STARKS SKIDPLATE!
Posts: 18
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Post by Draganta on Jul 31, 2007 3:07:17 GMT -5
i'm sorry to bump an old topic, but i had to put this in.
i have been a fan of Captain America perhaps my whole life. other than Batman, he's my favorite comic Character. and it was the rather disrespectful way they killed him that has me currently in a new marvel embargo.
that said, i think Cap's return should be kept as a trump card for marvel to play only when they feel it absolutey warrents it.
in my mind, i imagine a scene in the middle of new york. the skull has won. all of marveldom has gone against him, and lost. even Doom has failed.
and thats when a familiar red and blue shield comes flying out of the flames.
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Post by redstatecap on Jul 31, 2007 11:52:14 GMT -5
I also am on a Marvel embargo, so It's great to see someone else with principles. He'll return eventually. Economics absolutely guarantee that.
RSC
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Post by Doctor Bong on Jul 31, 2007 13:52:44 GMT -5
I'm (almost) on a Marvel embargo... I AM buying Thor, though...
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Post by balok on Jul 31, 2007 13:57:16 GMT -5
I dropped all Marvel books except Amazing when they murdered Cap. Amazing goes when it reaches the end of JMS' "Back in Black" run. I later added Thor, which is holding my attention for the moment, and I often read and sometimes purchase Cap (a buddy usually lets me read his copy.) I estimate Marvel's decision to murder Cap cost them $25/month in my books. Evidently the newer generation likes the books bloody and their freedoms non-existent. They're welcome to 'em.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jul 31, 2007 15:16:13 GMT -5
I still don't understand, as I've expressed to you before Bong, how exactly dropping the titles you actually enjoy to blockade Marvel for a move you don't like solves anything.
Yes, Marvel lose your money, okay. But... okay, let's take She-Hulk. A fun, light hearted title. Now if you drop She-Hulk, Marvel Editorial won't know that it's because Captain America died. They'll say "Well, we're getting less She-Hulk sales, people must not like the fun, light hearted tone." So they'll change it. And then the book you actually DID like.... has been changed, so now you can't like it, and you're partially responsible.
My point is, if you don't like the Death of Captain America, drop Captain America. But blockading other books you'd enjoy because of that does send a message to Marvel all right - only it's the wrong one!
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Post by balok on Jul 31, 2007 16:36:50 GMT -5
My point is, if you don't like the Death of Captain America, drop Captain America. But blockading other books you'd enjoy because of that does send a message to Marvel all right - only it's the wrong one! Well, in my case I don't like what Marvel has become following the Civil War. So I choose not to support most Marvel books. A Marvel book now has to be much, much better than a DC book to keep me as a subscriber. Keeping my dollars away from Marvel sends the message that one individual doesn't like the reinvention of their universe into a darker and more unpleasant place to live, should you have the misfortune to be born with metahuman abilities.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jul 31, 2007 16:49:18 GMT -5
Not really, not if you drop postivie, light, bouncy titles as well. Again, if you drop a book you enjoy, it's a signal to Marvel to stop that book telling stories you enjoy.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Jul 31, 2007 18:15:02 GMT -5
I still don't understand, as I've expressed to you before Bong, how exactly dropping the titles you actually enjoy to blockade Marvel for a move you don't like solves anything. Yes, Marvel lose your money, okay. But... okay, let's take She-Hulk. A fun, light hearted title. Now if you drop She-Hulk, Marvel Editorial won't know that it's because Captain America died. They'll say "Well, we're getting less She-Hulk sales, people must not like the fun, light hearted tone." So they'll change it. And then the book you actually DID like.... has been changed, so now you can't like it, and you're partially responsible. My point is, if you don't like the Death of Captain America, drop Captain America. But blockading other books you'd enjoy because of that does send a message to Marvel all right - only it's the wrong one! I know, Doom, and don't think that I didn't think long and hard about what you said then but, for me, it's like this: in the beginning my embargo was political in intent: I didn't care for the general direction in which I saw Marvel going and, in particular, I really couldn't stand CW (NOT that the death of Cap didn't contribute to make matters worse for me...); nowadays, though, it's worse: because my disenchantment with Marvel, the only company I really cared about, and my lack of faith on any possible improvement (from my point of view) on the situation for the foreseeable future, AND the fact that by not buying anything new nor going to the comic book stores on a weekly basis I have distanced myself considerably from what's going on, I have fallen in the clutches of a sort of apathy for all things comics... for the most part, I just can't muster enthusiasm enough to get back in the game or, even worse, comment anymore on most of the things currently going on... and this explains as well why my posts have considerably diminished... on the other hand, I still get a kick out of reading your posts, guys, they are the only thing which still conects me to the wonderful, whacky world of comics... well, AA AND the returning Thor series, which has managed to shake off my lack of interest; perhaps this is a sign that, eventually, my desire to be a Marvelite will come back... I sure hope so...
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Post by Alchemist-X on Jul 31, 2007 19:22:52 GMT -5
Hanging around here will probably give you the heads up when titles that you want to support start getting published (Incidentally, I think you could also send a message by filling out your back issues with those big Marvel collection books, helping to hilight what in the good old days deserves another look)
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Post by redstatecap on Jul 31, 2007 22:52:21 GMT -5
I still don't understand, as I've expressed to you before Bong, how exactly dropping the titles you actually enjoy to blockade Marvel for a move you don't like solves anything. Yes, Marvel lose your money, okay. But... okay, let's take She-Hulk. A fun, light hearted title. Now if you drop She-Hulk, Marvel Editorial won't know that it's because Captain America died. They'll say "Well, we're getting less She-Hulk sales, people must not like the fun, light hearted tone." So they'll change it. And then the book you actually DID like.... has been changed, so now you can't like it, and you're partially responsible. My point is, if you don't like the Death of Captain America, drop Captain America. But blockading other books you'd enjoy because of that does send a message to Marvel all right - only it's the wrong one! That is one way to look at it. Here is another: Events of Civil War were not intended to promote the sales of the Civil War comic in the long term, because of course there is no Civil War ongoing. Events of CW were intended to: 1)In the short run, get you to buy titles you would not ordinarily buy to follow the story. 2)In the long run, appeal to a new demographic which Marvel hopes will provide a net gain in total readership across the board. They would have to understand that their decisions would cost them some readers, but hoped that new readers would come on board for the new direction of the Marvel Universe. The first, last, and only criteria for success is net sales gain.If Marvel's net sales are up across the board, then the "new direction" is a success and it will be continued and built upon. If net sales are flat or down, the "new direction" will be regarded as a failure and is susceptible to being scrapped for another "new direction." The goal of a complete embargo on Marvel product is to withold revenue across the board that would otherwise help make editorial's decisions look justified. Yes, titles that one might otherwise buy will have to suffer. But then, it was Marvel's decision and actions have consequences. I've never been a very extensive monthly buyer. I'd buy Cap and the Avengers, and occasionally the odd title. Once those books are dropped my ability to financially punish Marvel decreases. In order to continue to send Marvel a financial message -- the only message they will understand -- my embargo has to broaden. The Invaders TPBs are a good example. Those would normally be a guaranteed sale for me. The complete series will be five trades at $25 a pop = $125. Gone. Stern&Byrne's "War and Remembrance" reprint, gone. I will buy them eventually -- second hand. Someone will get my money for Marvel product, but it won't be Marvel. RSC
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Post by Engage on Aug 1, 2007 0:50:48 GMT -5
I can't think of any reason to bring him back any time soon.
What if they inserted a series of backup stories following more of Cap's WWII adventures and leaving the main title as a series following the Falcon, Winter Soldier, etc? Maybe an arc of one character and then another. It could sustain itself for a while until its time to bring Cap back.
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Post by Alchemist-X on Aug 1, 2007 2:12:39 GMT -5
They have a Cap WW2 mini in the works already don't they?
But definately, the longer he stays dead, the more dramatic his return will be.
I just hope the return is dramatic and in a time of crisis, not just a "oh hey, Cap, alive again huh?"
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