|
Post by Nutcase65 on Mar 27, 2007 16:09:42 GMT -5
I have one. Now I forget, does that mean I CAN be the next Cap or that I CAN'T be?
Lets see,... live in South Carolina so I do watch NASCAR(If you don't they shoot you) so,...check myspace,..check world series,..check
WOOHOO!!!!!!!! Now introducing!!!!!!
CAPTAIN AMERINUT!
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 12, 2007 12:10:18 GMT -5
They shoot you in South Cakalaki if you don't watch NASCAR...? Well, there go my plans to move to that fine state... I must confess: I'm a traitor to all things american male; for me, a car is just a tool to go from point A to point B...
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 12, 2007 12:14:49 GMT -5
I'm also a traitor to all things American.
Which is possibly why I'm not.
|
|
|
Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 12, 2007 15:33:40 GMT -5
Not liking is NASCAR is OK. It just means you can't be Captain America is all.
|
|
|
Post by balok on Apr 12, 2007 15:55:44 GMT -5
Not liking is NASCAR is OK. It just means you can't be Captain America is all. Could you make up for that by posting videos to YouTube or making a MySpace page? (Hey, if Marvel doesn't want to be mocked like this, they should write better books!
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 12, 2007 16:25:10 GMT -5
Right. And of course, we all know Jenkins represents all of Marvel! Booyah!
Given that they made fun of it themselves I doubt Marvel greatly care about the mockery on this topic
|
|
|
Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 12, 2007 17:30:01 GMT -5
Right. And of course, we all know Jenkins represents all of Marvel! Booyah! Doom? Did you just say,.... Booyah? Tis a sad day indeed
|
|
|
Post by Alchemist-X on Apr 12, 2007 18:37:58 GMT -5
The current 616 Cap definately didn't represent today's america. If he did, he obviously would have blindly flowed the SHRA, and 20 min after that, he' be ready to invade Iraq. This is the big problem, should Cap always represent the values of the '40s, or should be grow with the times. It made sense for him to be stuck in the 40's after he was defrosted, but really after being in the modern world for years and years it would be reasonable to think he would change and become more current. Does that mean growing into being Captain America the way America 2007 would have it? Nah Steve Rogrers could never be that man, better to kill him that grossly mischaracterize him even more.
Moral of this story, its societys fault Cap has become so dated. If only everyone else in the world could live in the past like most of the people on this board, then Marvel wouldn't have to update their characters to stay topical.
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 12, 2007 18:40:35 GMT -5
The current 616 Cap definately didn't represent today's america. If he did, he obviously would have blindly flowed the SHRA, and 20 min after that, he' be ready to invade Iraq. This is the big problem, should Cap always represent the values of the '40s, or should be grow with the times. It made sense for him to be stuck in the 40's after he was defrosted, but really after being in the modern world for years and years it would be reasonable to think he would change and become more current. Does that mean growing into being Captain America the way America 2007 would have it? Nah Steve Rogrers could never be that man, better to kill him that grossly mischaracterize him even more. Moral of this story, its societys fault Cap has become so dated. If only everyone else in the world could live in the past like most of the people on this board, then Marvel wouldn't have to update their characters to stay topical. I'm speechless...
|
|
|
Post by balok on Apr 12, 2007 19:29:45 GMT -5
The current 616 Cap definately didn't represent today's america. If he did, he obviously would have blindly flowed the SHRA, and 20 min after that, he' be ready to invade Iraq. This is the big problem, should Cap always represent the values of the '40s, or should be grow with the times. It made sense for him to be stuck in the 40's after he was defrosted, but really after being in the modern world for years and years it would be reasonable to think he would change and become more current. Does that mean growing into being Captain America the way America 2007 would have it? Nah Steve Rogrers could never be that man, better to kill him that grossly mischaracterize him even more. Moral of this story, its societys fault Cap has become so dated. If only everyone else in the world could live in the past like most of the people on this board, then Marvel wouldn't have to update their characters to stay topical. I've seen people completely miss the point before, but this takes that to a whole new level. A whole new level.
|
|
|
Post by Alchemist-X on Apr 12, 2007 20:06:17 GMT -5
The current 616 Cap definately didn't represent today's america. If he did, he obviously would have blindly flowed the SHRA, and 20 min after that, he' be ready to invade Iraq. This is the big problem, should Cap always represent the values of the '40s, or should be grow with the times. It made sense for him to be stuck in the 40's after he was defrosted, but really after being in the modern world for years and years it would be reasonable to think he would change and become more current. Does that mean growing into being Captain America the way America 2007 would have it? Nah Steve Rogrers could never be that man, better to kill him that grossly mischaracterize him even more. Moral of this story, its societys fault Cap has become so dated. If only everyone else in the world could live in the past like most of the people on this board, then Marvel wouldn't have to update their characters to stay topical. I've seen people completely miss the point before, but this takes that to a whole new level. A whole new level. I could say the same for you guys
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 12, 2007 20:32:09 GMT -5
As indeed it's your antiMiranda right, alchemistx: to speak up your mind!
|
|
|
Post by Alchemist-X on Apr 12, 2007 21:04:29 GMT -5
Well I see a lot of complaints of Marvel Character mischaracterization and all that right.
So if Marvel wants a new marvel universe, rather than misscharacterize the 'new' captain america, why not have it be someone other than Rogers, so the Steve Rogers of 616 doesn't have to act so contrary to everything he's been. (Civil War really showed him struggling to live in todays world I thought, and Cap, the rebel is just as wrong as Cap the government stormtrooper right?)
So a New Captain America is just what the Doctor ordered, lets us explorea different Captain, AND doesn't desecrate Steve Rogers as an Icon.
And the main reason behind the change is Marvel's goal of presenting us a world very much like our own. Overall I think this is a good way to create a New Marvel feel (at least for CA) and not tear down everything everything Steve Rogers as Cap stood for.
Also my vote is Captain America should be replaced by Daredevil, I mean wouldn't that solve like all of MM's problems?
|
|
|
Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 12, 2007 21:06:47 GMT -5
wait guys, I think I see alittle of what he's saying.
I think it's a comment about how today's society has separated ITSELF from the values we once held in high regard.
If that's what he was saying he's right. and since Cap kept those ideals many Americans have paushed away, you could say that he doesn't reflect society. Or more appropriately society no longer reflects Cap.
Is that what you were going for Alche
|
|
|
Post by Alchemist-X on Apr 12, 2007 21:19:28 GMT -5
Exactly, Cap stands for morals that our society doesn't value. And at the same time, our society has values that don't reflect the values of Captain America.
So basically it was time for a change, and its better to have some other guy become the new Cap than transform 616 Steve Rogers into his Ultimate Counterpart.
|
|
|
Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 12, 2007 22:10:35 GMT -5
I actually think this is something that us old timers can agree with.
Oh Crap, I'm gonna be agreeing with our most hated reporter.
Cap, as he is now, no longer stands for what America is today.
But it isn't the same as when she said it. It's not a bad thing. America today leaves a lot to be desired. Before you smack me around, look at the numbers.
Higher Crime rates Lower quality of education (my mom is a teacher, I'm not knocking teachers, I'm just saying their hands are tied) Increase in drug use The morality has drastically changed. (take someone out of the 60's and put them in front of a TV today from 8 to10 PM, what do you think would happen)
Look at the ideals Cap stood for Cap had higher moral values Cap was honest to a fault Cap believed in standing up for right, no matter the personal cost Cap would fight for what he believed in Cap was unselfish Cap believed his rights ended where the next guy's began.
For most people today, those are just ideals, something that even seems unreal to many people. For whatever reason, right or wrong.
I thinks that is also why there is such a division on this board between the older fans and the younger. We believed different things than todays generation find important.
When she said it, it was an attacking statement. When it really is a sad commentary.
or maybe its just late
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 12, 2007 22:53:49 GMT -5
Nutcase, are you saying you think today's youth find Cap's ideals more fantastic that his indestructible shield or the supersoldier serum...?
|
|
|
Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 13, 2007 6:59:56 GMT -5
It's hard for me to get this out without making it sound like I'm bashing Cap.
Cap doesn't reflect Americas values, because America's values have degraded so far. (great, so I'm bashing my country instead) I think that kids look at him and don't relate to his level of morality. I think they see that level of morality as not worth the time to aspire to.
If you were to take any random kid out of any random school and hold him strictly to Caps value system, do you think that kid would be happy?
Caps value system is something that I think is worth striving toward. I just don't think many of todays generation want to aspire towards it.
|
|
|
Post by Black Knight on Apr 13, 2007 10:49:00 GMT -5
Cap repersents the American dream, what America should be like.
He is the model, of what American values should be.
I think that is my problem with the current people at Marvels, idea that Cap no longer understands America.
It just felt like a pathetic excuse to kill him, and drive up sales, because like I said Cap does not repersent what America is, but what it should be.
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 13, 2007 11:10:36 GMT -5
Your logic, Black Knight, is undermined by the fact that the driving reason for Cap being anti-reg and not supporting the government was stated over and over that he represented not what America was, but what it should be. They nderstand that very well.
The fact still remains; he doesn't reflect what it is, and Marvel are exploring that maybe it's time for a Cap who does.
And very nice post alchemistx, you hit the nail right on the head- Steve Rogers is so far from America today that he could never BECOME that Cap of today. Would Cap lead the charge to Iraq? HELL NO! He'd be against it at every street corner. In 1930, Cap represented the America of his day. Why can't a new Cap represent the America we're stuck with so proud to be with!
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 13, 2007 11:38:00 GMT -5
Perhaps part of the problem for those of us who object to this is that we aren't satisfied with the America we're stuck with either, Doom... Whether it be the one Marvel is trying to mirror or the one we live in...
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 13, 2007 11:40:02 GMT -5
I'm a diehard liberal, Bong. You SHOULDN'T be satisfied with the America you're stuck in today, compared to the one you were stuck in even seven years ago. Then again, I don't have to live there so maybe I just like having comics mirror my political views on the quagmire of foolishness America has fallen into these days
|
|
|
Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 13, 2007 13:19:25 GMT -5
OK, but just because Cap no longer reflects what America has become, I don't agree with the decision to remove him. Because by taking him from the era he comes from and giving him such a high stabdard, he becomes an example. Someone who the people who do want to strive to be better, can look towards. Americans don't like what we call 'the dumbing down' of our school systems. Where we have lowered educational standards so our test scores will appear higher. What has happened is they would seem to be 'Dirtying down' the role of Cap. So what is right and good doesn't look to be so far above what people have sunk to.
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 13, 2007 14:46:20 GMT -5
Correct me if I'm wrong though, but a big part of "The Death of the Dream" is that America doesn't appreciate who Steve Rogers was and what he represented until AFTER he's gone.
I seem to recall reading quotes somewhere recently which basically said Tony Stark would be in Cap quite a lot and have a very big part to play in it, dealing with some guilt and whatnot, does anyone else remember this?
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 13, 2007 16:09:47 GMT -5
Correct me if I'm wrong though, but a big part of "The Death of the Dream" is that America doesn't appreciate who Steve Rogers was and what he represented until AFTER he's gone. I seem to recall reading quotes somewhere recently which basically said Tony Stark would be in Cap quite a lot and have a very big part to play in it, dealing with some guilt and whatnot, does anyone else remember this? In other words, that Tony fits the bill for a better "Captain America" for the beginning of the new milennium..?
|
|
|
Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 13, 2007 16:13:16 GMT -5
I don't know if you see Tony as Cap. He will probably be highly active in the selection of cap
|
|
|
Post by balok on Apr 13, 2007 17:42:28 GMT -5
Exactly, Cap stands for morals that our society doesn't value. And at the same time, our society has values that don't reflect the values of Captain America. So basically it was time for a change, and its better to have some other guy become the new Cap than transform 616 Steve Rogers into his Ultimate Counterpart. Okay, I stand corrected. I misunderstood what you were trying to say. But I still believe that Cap would serve better as a reminder of what we should strive to be rather than a reflection of what we are. Because this country HAS drifted from Cap's values, the values that made it great. Some scholar - I no longer remember who - once said that democracies last until people discover (among other things) that they can vote themselves the right to life off the hard work of others. Once that happens, it's downhill from there. The United States may be in the process of proving that true. Indolence has taken root and people are more concerned with being safe than with freedom and responsibility. If the new Cap reflects this, then maybe he WILL reflect society - but it will be a reflection no one with principles will want to look at.
|
|
|
Post by scribbler357 on Apr 20, 2007 15:54:06 GMT -5
From another message board:
"The nice lady on the phone at Marvel told me that after Civil War: Fallen Son ends after five issues, that Captain America restarts at Issue No. 1 (Again!) and there will be a Captain America. She said she didn't know who would be Captain America but she also said "He's a Super-hero, he can't die." More and more this feels like a stunt as opposed to a legitimate story line. "
|
|
|
Post by redstatecap on Apr 21, 2007 1:15:55 GMT -5
From another message board: "The nice lady on the phone at Marvel told me that after Civil War: Fallen Son ends after five issues, that Captain America restarts at Issue No. 1 (Again!) and there will be a Captain America. She said she didn't know who would be Captain America but she also said "He's a Super-hero, he can't die." More and more this feels like a stunt as opposed to a legitimate story line. " And you believed it? Of course Cap won't die permanently -- the money imperative will see to that. But a couple of years, yeah. RSC
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 21, 2007 6:40:48 GMT -5
Beyond pure money, it's pretty obvious Cap will come back sooner or later. Even if there weren't the money factor, there will just be writers who say "Hmm, let's bring back Steve Rogers as a shock!" or whatever.
|
|