Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
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Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on Mar 8, 2007 9:51:11 GMT -5
Actually, in an interview on Newsarma posted today, he stated that Civil war allowed him to kill Cap, and he felt the story was going to be better this way. He was not orginally planing on killing cap. If you have an interview that proves otherwise, would love to see. I thought it was pretty definitive from the Brubaker interviews I have read... "Brubaker: No version of "Civil War" I ever heard of had Cap or Iron Man dying in it, and I was in the room for three days while the last act of "Civil War" got hammered out. The reason this is happening in the book now, right on the heels of "Civil War," is because "Civil War" left me with a few options, but most of them I felt had explored already in "Captain America" or in other recent books - such as my own first arc of "Daredevil." So, since I didn't want to do a "Cap gets on a motorcycle and finds America" story, or a "Cap behind bars" story, I decided to bump up the timeline on my big "Red Skull Strikes Back" story instead, and go straight for the jugular. The basic idea of this arc – "The Death of the Dream" – is something I've been building towards since issue #1. Some of the beats and the way it goes down, of course, have been altered since this follows "Civil War's" ending so closely." That's pretty definitive, and I have read Brubaker's CA#1, and Skull's plans have indeed been mentioned since the very first issue. Marvel has it and issue #7, and nice little story about Jack "Nomad" Monroe, available to read free and in their entirety on their website.
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Post by Black Knight on Mar 8, 2007 10:00:08 GMT -5
Let me just post some more of the article and you will see that Brubaker altered his story, to make it bigger with the death of Cap.
Then I talked it over with Tom Brevoort, and with Bendis, since he's the other guy writing Cap in New Avengers, who'd be affected, and then I started laying the groundwork for this entire "Death of the Dream" storyline, seeding the Red Skull's behind the scenes stuff in the Civil War tie-in issues of Cap. And from that point, there was a lot of back and forth about how this would work or not work and how we would do it, between me and Tom. And more recently, a lot of emailing back and forth with Jeph Loeb, who had a lot of really good points about how big this actually was and how to make it even bigger.
NRAMA: So once it was all decided that Captain America would die in issue #25 did it require any drastic changes of your plans as you had been constructing them for the series?
EB: Not really. This storyline, in one form or another, has been building since issue #1 of Cap. The way it begins, with Cap's death in issue #25, is probably more huge than it might have been otherwise, and more of an event. I tend not to think huge or event, generally, but this warrants it. But even with all that, to me, this is just a continuation of the story I've been telling in Cap all along, and this is the next step. If Civil War had not come along, it may have taken a while longer to get here, and Cap may or may not have been killed, but this is all fitting into my plans and leading to some great things in Cap. I'm really excited about this book, just as much as I was when I first began it. I have said from the beginning that Civil War was a gift to me, and to Cap, because of what I'd be able to do after it, and it's really true. This story became better I think, than it would have been otherwise.
Thanks.
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Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on Mar 8, 2007 11:35:59 GMT -5
So he has said up to this point, that killing Cap was in the works since #1, and that Civil War just gave him the perfect opportunity and circumstance to pull it off, and that it only moved the actual death up by a few issues. Now, in that interview which you posted (and THANKS for that, btw) he is now saying that killing Cap wasn't even a certainty in his original plans. And these guys wonder why we can't trust anything coming out of their mouths. It sounds to me like he had an idea for a story that would ultimately build to Cap's death (if Marvel would go for it... hence the whole he might or might not die statement). Once he got whiff of how Civil War would end, with Cap in custody, etc... it seems that he and/or Joe Q. & Co. decided that he would definitely die and in exactly what circumstance. Meh. Not that it really matters, he had an idea. He wasn't sure if it was actually going to happen, then it does. So I don't guess it makes a whole hill of beans how or why the actual edict of killing him came down.
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Post by Black Knight on Mar 8, 2007 11:50:51 GMT -5
Or, he had not planed on killing Cap, but CW gave him the idea to do it, and make the story, possible more powerful. You can look at that from either point of view. Either way, minds where changed, I think that is all people are saying here.
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Post by balok on Mar 8, 2007 14:36:34 GMT -5
Unless I misunderstand what's being said here, he went from a pre Civil War "may or may not kill Cap" to a post Civil War "kill Cap." So, a big thanks to Mark and Ed for that!
On the other hand, what happened in Civil War basically killed Cap, and Iron Man, and Mr. Fantastic as characters, so why not finish the job?
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Post by dlw66 on Mar 8, 2007 15:15:49 GMT -5
From ABCNews.com, today:
What the Death of Captain America Really Means Bullets Killed Him, But the War on Terror Really Did Cap In By BRYAN ROBINSON, Contributor March 8, 2007 — - Rest in peace, Captain America.
You wore red, white and blue and had superhuman abilities, but the war on terror was too much even for you.
Comic book fans are mourning the death of the Marvel Comics' icon, who was gunned down by an assassin in "Captain America Vol. 5, No. 25." The "Sentinel of Liberty" was perhaps at his lowest point -- he had become an outlaw while fighting and ultimately losing a war against his fellow superheroes to protect the civil liberties of all Americans. At the time of his death, he was facing a life sentence in prison.
Bullets took the life of the Sentinel of Liberty, but he was really a victim -- and product -- of the times.
"Heroes are often a reflection of the times. When Spider-Man came along in the 1960s, there were a lot of kids entering college who had a hard time finding their identities, what cause to get involved in," said M. Thomas Inge, author of "Anything Can Happen in a Comic Strip: Centennial Reflections on an American Art Form."
"There were a lot of internal problems in this country, with the civil rights movement going on. A lot of kids continued reading comics after entering college, which is unusual since most teens stop at that time," Inge said.
Parallels to the Post-Sept. 11 World, Iraq
Cap's demise followed the climax in Marvel's "Civil War" storyline, in which a newly passed law requiring all heroes to register their secret identities with the government divided the superhero community.
The law, the "Superhero Registration Act," was passed after an encounter between a reckless teen supergroup and a villain called Nitro led to the deaths of hundreds, mostly children, in Stamford, Conn.
Captain America thought the act violated basic civil liberties and led a group of crime fighters who went rogue after refusing to register.
His former friend, ambitious billionaire Tony Stark -- aka Iron Man -- championed the law and considered it a natural evolution of superheroes' role in society. He secretly orchestrated a campaign that created circumstances to scare and mislead the public and government officials into supporting the act and all the programs that it entailed.
Does this sound vaguely familiar? Politically-motivated opportunists preying on the fears of a nation? A conflict based in part on questionable intelligence, arguably lies?
You're not crazy if you think Captain America's struggle parallels the debates over the Iraq War, the Patriot Act, the Bush domestic surveillance program and other controversial programs in the post-Sept. 11 world.
The civil war among the heroes ended when a distraught Captain America, overwhelmed by the carnage around him, took off his mask and surrendered to authorities as his alter ego, Steve Rogers. Some readers may have been shocked to see Cap give up and imprisoned but they didn't expect him to get killed off.
"I'm definitely pissed off," said Ken Feliu, a 34-year-old commercial production director and lifelong comic book reader. "I mean, why did they have to kill him off?"
"He's supposed to represent all our ideals, everything we're supposed to aspire to and they couldn't leave him intact?" Feliu said. "And the way he died -- with two bullets to the chest by a sniper? Come on!"
"All the heroes today have to have an edge, have to be gritty," he continued. "No one has enough creativity where they can't leave a hero who actually stands for something well enough alone."
United He Stands, Divided He Falls
Captain America was born during a simpler time when the United States was much more united against a common enemy. World War II and the battle against the Nazis provided the backdrop when he debuted in Marvel Comics in 1941. The cover of the first issue of Captain America shows the superhero punching Adolf Hitler in the face.
Both Superman and Captain America represented patriotism and in some ways, American wholesomeness, omnipotence, idealism and innocence. Besides battling the Red Skull and a slew of other supervillains, Cap battled the Nazis.
However, against the background of the civil rights movement, assassinations, and the Vietnam War, heroes -- along with the rest of the nation -- lost their innocence in the 1960s.
Marvel Comics' creator Stan Lee introduced characters such as The Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, and The Incredible Hulk, all of whom had very human problems and weaknesses. Spider-Man worried about paying the rent while The Fantastic Four's Invisible Girl worried about her marriage to a workaholic. The X-Men, who debuted in 1963, were foils for the civil rights movement. The driving conflict in the X-Men -- classified as mutants -- was that their powers were also their curse.
Rebirth in Death
Still, nothing, especially death, is final in the world of comic books. DC Comics resurrected Superman in 1994, one year after he was killed. Captain America will live on as Marvel writers explore the fallout of his death and reveal more about his alter-ego, Steve Rogers.
"Killing Captain America was really a more compelling story for our readers," said Dan Buckley, publisher at Marvel Entertainment. "It was more interesting than to see Cap in jail, reflecting. Besides exploring the question of who killed Captain America, we will be focusing on who was Steve Rogers the character, since not much really known about him.
"We know about Captain America, the hero, the icon, but we don't know much about Steve. We will be exploring what Steve Rogers meant to those close to him and on a macro level, what Captain America's death means to the Marvel Universe. We'll be exploring what Captain America the icon means and whether the legacy should be carried on," Buckley said.
Buckley also said there are no plans to resurrect Captain America -- for the time being.
"Steve Rogers is dead," he said. "As [Marvel Entertainment editor in chief] Joe [Quesada] says, 'A death should mean something. A resurrection should mean something.'"
And whether he was battling Hitler and the Nazis or fighting a losing battle for civil liberties, Captain America meant something. Captain America is dead, true believers ... long live Captain America!
Copyright © 2007 ABC News Internet Ventures
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Post by balok on Mar 8, 2007 15:50:22 GMT -5
The mention of Stan Lee prompts me to wonder that no news organization has spoken to him about this. I'd be curious to learn his opinions of Civil War and Cap's death.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Mar 8, 2007 16:37:06 GMT -5
Balok, the sad reality is that smilin' Stan takes the side of either Marvel or the fans on any issue. He has said many times he supports civil war but really I'd take it with a pinch of salt- The Man is really just one giant lovable fanboy, but his opinions ALWAYS seem to be in line with marv el, unless there's colossal fan outcry to the contrary in which case they lie with the fans
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Post by Shiryu on Mar 8, 2007 17:29:12 GMT -5
That's not really surprising knowing Lee's history, I've always thought he would have been a great politician ;D
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Post by Tana Nile on Mar 8, 2007 19:08:22 GMT -5
At this point, I would not be at all surprised to see them have Stark appoint a new Cap and hand the pretender his shield. Pure speculation of course. Sometimes I hate being right. From Newsarama: forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=104344On an editorial note, in a development sure to further incite the readers still critical of Iron Man’s role/characterization of Civil War and its fallout, Marvel has revealed to retailers via Diamond’s website that it will in fact be Stark who gets to – or tries to - choose the next Captain America. According to Diamond’s description of Jeph Loeb and John Romita Jr’s Fallen Son: The Death of Captain America – Captain America special, “this pivotal issue features follows Iron Man’s quest to fill the red-white-and-blue uniform with a suitable replacement.”
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Post by balok on Mar 8, 2007 19:17:42 GMT -5
...in a development sure to further incite the readers still critical of Iron Man’s role/characterization of Civil War and its fallout, Marvel has revealed to retailers via Diamond’s website that it will in fact be Stark who gets to – or tries to - choose the next Captain America... I'm not surprised. None of the crap Marvel does surprises me anymore. A lot of people seem to trust Brubaker, but I think this was just a dumb move.
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Post by dlw66 on Mar 8, 2007 19:42:00 GMT -5
Help me out here: DC has filled the uniform of Green Lantern and Flash with other characters, Robin too. Has Marvel ever done this before? Sure there've been a few Captain Marvels, but as a differently-powered hero (-ine). I suppose we could say Marvel Boy/Quasar, but he's such a minor player. Iron Man was Jim Rhodes, but that was pretty short-term. I'm sure I'm missing someone along the way.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Mar 8, 2007 19:57:46 GMT -5
Thor...? Spider-Man, if we count Ben Reilly...?
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Post by sharkar on Mar 8, 2007 20:00:04 GMT -5
Help me out here: DC has filled the uniform of Green Lantern and Flash with other characters, Robin too. Has Marvel ever done this before? Sure there've been a few Captain Marvels, but as a differently-powered hero (-ine). I suppose we could say Marvel Boy/Quasar, but he's such a minor player. Iron Man was Jim Rhodes, but that was pretty short-term. I'm sure I'm missing someone along the way. Ant-Man? Clint taking over as Goliath (in that god-awful costume)?
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Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on Mar 8, 2007 20:20:45 GMT -5
Uhhhh, John Walker, maybe? When Cap became The Captain?
If I was an Iron Man fan, I would be absolutely livid. Your character gets to the forefront (you know, in time for the movie... no coincidence there I am sure) except where does he go from here? He's either destined to become a villain for quite some time after this all shakes out, or he, too, will be a dead man.... again.
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Post by balok on Mar 8, 2007 20:57:10 GMT -5
One of the things I'd like to see happen is for Marvel to at least acknowledge Tony's crimes. Given the nature of comics, he won't ever spend the years in prison for them that he should, but at least acknowledging them would be a step in the right direction.
Instead they murder Cap. Go figure.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Mar 8, 2007 22:37:43 GMT -5
Help me out here: DC has filled the uniform of Green Lantern and Flash with other characters, Robin too. Has Marvel ever done this before? Thor...? Spider-Man, if we count Ben Reilly...? Ant-Man? Clint taking over as Goliath (in that god-awful costume)? Daredevil, Yellowjacket, Hawkeye, Phoenix, Marvel Girl, Ghost Rider, Nomad, Vindicator, Guardian, Ronin … Uhhhh, John Walker, maybe? When Cap became The Captain? Another good example, which ties into my earlier comment comparing #25 to vol. 1 #351. Iron Man was Jim Rhodes, but that was pretty short-term. If you’re looking for cases of permanent takeover of a star hero’s identity, Marvel’s not as good a place to look as DC.
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Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on Mar 8, 2007 23:02:04 GMT -5
Yeah, no kidding... I mean even Batman had someone take his spot when he got his back broke. Oddly enough, taken over by a loose cannon... another similarity with Cap and USAgent.
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Post by dlw66 on Mar 8, 2007 23:38:32 GMT -5
Help me out here: DC has filled the uniform of Green Lantern and Flash with other characters, Robin too. Has Marvel ever done this before? Daredevil, Yellowjacket, Hawkeye, Phoenix, Marvel Girl, Ghost Rider, Nomad, Vindicator, Guardian, Ronin … Another good example, which ties into my earlier comment comparing #25 to vol. 1 #351. Iron Man was Jim Rhodes, but that was pretty short-term. If you’re looking for cases of permanent takeover of a star hero’s identity, Marvel’s not as good a place to look as DC. Thanks to you all -- for the most part what you came up with confirmed my suspicions: A) I sure haven't read as much in the past 20 years as I did as a kid, and B) You're right Phantom -- DC has had more long-lasting personnel changes (and more important ones at that).
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Post by von Bek on Mar 9, 2007 8:49:06 GMT -5
There´s the 'Commie smasher' Cap and Bucky from the 50´s, that Englehart later retconned as impostors. Bucky II became later Nomad II. And Marvel´s version of DC´s Uncle Sam (I think he was called Spirit of ´76) impersonated Cap after Steve Rogers was presumed dead at the end of the war. I think there´s another version of Cap, but I´m not sure who that one was.
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Post by von Bek on Mar 9, 2007 8:57:49 GMT -5
If you’re looking for cases of permanent takeover of a star hero’s identity, Marvel’s not as good a place to look as DC. Permanent takeover of a star hero’s identity at DC? Think Hal Jordan.
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Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on Mar 9, 2007 9:11:05 GMT -5
Permanent takeover of a star hero’s identity at DC? Think Hal Jordan. ...or Barry Allen and Wally West. YOu could even throw a Jay Garrick on there... though that's an alternate Earth really. I mean they are always killing off/replacing both Flash and Green Lantern as mentioned by dlw earlier.
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Post by von Bek on Mar 9, 2007 9:18:48 GMT -5
Permanent takeover of a star hero’s identity at DC? Think Hal Jordan. ...or Barry Allen and Wally West. YOu could even throw a Jay Garrick on there... though that's an alternate Earth really. I mean they are always killing off/replacing both Flash and Green Lantern as mentioned by dlw earlier. Well, Barry Allen is still dead. But Jordan went nuts, was turned into a villain, sacrifice himself, became the Spectre and now... he´s GL again!! So much for permanent changes.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Mar 9, 2007 11:33:28 GMT -5
Actually VonBek, Barry is coming back as the Flash. Sorry to burst that bubble.
Well I'm now an Iron Man fan, wasn't a year ago and I think to say you're only ignoring 3/4 of the options would be charitable.
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Post by Black Knight on Mar 9, 2007 11:58:38 GMT -5
Actually VonBek, Barry is coming back as the Flash. Sorry to burst that bubble. Well I'm now an Iron Man fan, wasn't a year ago and I think to say you're only ignoring 3/4 of the options would be charitable. Where do you keep hereing this stuff. Barry is not coming back, he make an appearance, but he is not coming back permantly. I really am wondering where you get your info.
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Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on Mar 9, 2007 12:20:30 GMT -5
Well I'm now an Iron Man fan, wasn't a year ago and I think to say you're only ignoring 3/4 of the options would be charitable. Well, of course it would, seeing as how no one can predict the future... I highly doubt that needs to be rehased in this thread.. but honestly, when the pendulum swings back to the other side... and you know it will... what other outcomes are there? Yes, I ignored the obligatory "punch-out" ending, where everything is restored back to the way it was... maybe IM, uses that Reality Gem someone mentioned he possessed in another thread and resets reality after he sees the error of his ways. But honestly, when someone comes to the forefront to such a degree, and is CLEARLY the most pivotal character in the Marvel Universe at the moment... well, can't we just agree that it's safe to say that he's not going right back to being the good 'ol Golden Avenger right away.
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Post by von Bek on Mar 9, 2007 12:39:44 GMT -5
Actually VonBek, Barry is coming back as the Flash. Sorry to burst that bubble. Like BlackKnight I don´t know where you got that information. Do you have a source? I wasn´t saying I am against or pro Barry staying dead, I just stated a fact. Calm down, Doc...
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Post by balok on Mar 9, 2007 13:52:19 GMT -5
Like BlackKnight I don´t know where you got that information. Do you have a source? The rumor I've heard is that this will happen in either DC's "Civil War Envy" series (sales, not quality) "World War III" or in "Countdown" which is DC's attempt to keep the "52" marketing machine generating revenue by spending another year counting backwards. All I've heard to this point are rumors.
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Post by Black Knight on Mar 9, 2007 14:09:52 GMT -5
I heard that rumour as well, but I like most Barry appearances I assume it will just be for a few issues at most and he will be gone again, I highly doubt that he will be back permanently, as they just introduced Bart Allen as the Flash.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Mar 9, 2007 15:58:12 GMT -5
Aah, sorry my fault, I worded it poorly. Barry is coming back, but not afaik permanently. I merely meant he is definitely back in a Flash costume, which IS confirmed, not that he'd be permanent- and much as I ADORE Barry, I am willing to give Guggenheim a chance to make Bart work right now anyway.
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