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Post by Tana Nile on Jun 1, 2007 10:02:24 GMT -5
Picked up New Avengers: Illuminati #3 yesterday. This book was quite possibly the biggest waste of reading time I've had in years. Seriously, what is the point of this issue? The "big reveal" about the Beyonder is made by page 5. The rest of the issue really serves no purpose. Was this a story anyone was dying to see?
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Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on Jun 1, 2007 11:46:22 GMT -5
I picked it up as well, and was utterly unimpressed. I agree with you compeltely.
Also, I thought the Beyonder was one of, or part of, the Cosmic Cube(s). Was this an official retcon, or has this whole "mutant inhuman" story already been put out there?
To me, this makes the Beyonder even more ridiculous than he already was. At least when he was the living embodiment of another universe forcefully shunted into another universe, that held some interest and some merit to his whole story and his actions and powers. Becoming a cosmic cube made it ridiculous and unecessary, and now this makes things even worse. Ugh. And all for the sake of this whole Illuminati business.
Thanks for nothing. This is only a 4 parter, right? So far the only really interesting/entertaining thing out of this has been the tussle with the Skrulls.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Jun 1, 2007 22:05:05 GMT -5
Also, I thought the Beyonder was one of, or part of, the Cosmic Cube(s). Was this an official retcon, or has this whole "mutant inhuman" story already been put out there? I had never heard of this “mutant inhuman” business before you posted it. The previous origin of the Beyonder is as you’ve described (additional details are available). I have not been reading this series; anyone care to elaborate on this new origin story? (If you care not to relive it, I quite understand.)
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Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on Jun 2, 2007 9:04:09 GMT -5
Oh it's quite simple...
Apparently the Beyonder is no more than an Inhuman who was exposed to the Terrigen Mists. No big deal right? All of them do this...
OH BUT WAIT! This particular Inhuman happened to be a MUTANT INHUMAN, so when he was exposed to the Terrigen Mists, the effect of whatever natural mutant ability being amplified/modified/whatever... by the mists provided the Beyonder with his powers.
Here's the real great bit of writing... they can't even identify this particular Inhuman. Black Bolt simply cannot recall who he is. Namor pointedly asks why he doesn't remember such an unusual event, for somone to enter the mists and just disappear... it's not like it happens all the time, right? No answer is given... implying that there could be many others... oh, please.
In another bit of laughable writing, The Illuminati argue that the Beyonder must leave their universe because he is simply "UNNATURAL" ... wtf? Suddenly all processes in the universe are already known, and anything newly discovered is now unnatural? Does this sound like a scientist? Oh yeah, this was Reed Richards. Reed argues with the Beyonder that his existence, his abilities, upset the natural order of the universe. The Beyonder argues that the universe created him, just as it did Reed. Reeds arguement... "THAT IS NOT TRUE" Riiiight. He then goes on to argue that its unnatural because the Terrigen Mists (that exist in the universe) mixed with his mutant gene (also a natural product of the universe) to create him.
Good logic there, Bendis. I mean here's a man who is supposed the smartest in the world, and two natural occurrences in the universe combine and have an effect, but its unnatural? What the hell else do you call that?! If it couldn't happen naturally, then there wouldn't have been an effect at all right? It's not like they had to open a portal to a universe with different physics than our own for the mists and a mutant gene of an inhuman to combine and have an effect. Arrrggghh, it just makes my head hurt.
How about a human defying CELESTIAL entities (like oh say... Galactus), preventing them from performing their natural cosmic functions, Reed, would that be unnatural??
Pure Bendis tripe.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jun 2, 2007 9:57:38 GMT -5
Actually no, it's not pure Bendis at all.
I mean, I don't read Illuminati and am not a fan of the mutant Inhuman idea but it says VERY clearly on the cover that it's written by Bendis AND Fraction so blaming it all on one writer you hate is simply narrow minded. Spread the hate, Tone!
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Post by dlw66 on Jun 2, 2007 10:51:32 GMT -5
What? I hate retcons...
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Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on Jun 2, 2007 11:48:47 GMT -5
Actually no, it's not pure Bendis at all. I mean, I don't read Illuminati and am not a fan of the mutant Inhuman idea but it says VERY clearly on the cover that it's written by Bendis AND Fraction so blaming it all on one writer you hate is simply narrow minded. Spread the hate, Tone! Firstly, who is "Fraction," as the cover VERY CLEARLY attributes the issue only to Bendis (top-billing mind you), Reed, Cheung, and Morales. A quick inspection of page 1 still does not reveal anyone to have the name "Fraction," and VERY CLEARLY states the writers to be Brian Michael Bendis & Brian Reed (once again Bendis getting top billing of course). Is "Fraction" a nickname for Brian Reed that I am unaware of? This is not sarcasm, as I don't know the name "Fraction" off hand. To my main point... It's not spreading hate, it using logic to come to a sensible conclusion. I read books that have Bendis as the sole or co-writer. I typically don't like the writing in those books. Now, using Bendis logic, I could presume that the existence of a commonality can all but be be ignored, and that all the other variables are the true cause of distaste. OR I will use more sensible logic, and deduce that more than likely, the commonality (Bendis) is probably at a greater degree of fault than the other factors. Even if Reed was the brainchild behind this little nugget of literary goodness, the top-billed writer on the book apparently did nothing, or not enough, to make the idea work better... or better yet, kill the idea altogether. But I am sure there is a quote from some level of editor at Marvel that all of this can be attributed to, and therefore take any blame off of Bendis... right?
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Post by thew40 on Jun 2, 2007 11:56:21 GMT -5
I thought it was Brian Reed that was co-writing?
Whatever the case maybe, what does this story even matter anymore? The origin of the Beyonder was screwed up the second they decided to have "Secret Wars 2." For all intents and purposes, the Beyonder was killed during "Annihilation."
I have to say that the whole "Mutant Inhuman" thing works better than the "living Cosmic Cube" concept, but ultimately, I was happy when the Beyonder was just a huge freaking light in space shouting stuff like "I AM FROM BEYOND" and whatnot.
As far as the un-professionalism displayed by the Illuminati, I'm not surprised. I'm reminded of the Cap/Hank/Hawkeye scene in "Disassembled" outside the hospital. Yuck.
'Course, I'm not buying this book, so I can't comment on any of the details.
~W~
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Post by balok on Jun 2, 2007 15:53:13 GMT -5
The logic Tone quotes seems a little tortured to me. An equally plausible explanation could be that the Beyonder is *entirely natural* - so are supernovas and black holes - but not something you want around, and *that's* why he has to leave.
But making him a mutant Inhuman (not that such a thing could not exist) seems dumb to me given his demonstrated power set. I actually feel he'd have worked far better if they simply hadn't explained where he got his power or where he came from. At that level of power, mere humans probably couldn't understand it, anyway...
There is a writer named Matt Fraction, and he has a short entry over at the Wikipedia (so take it for what it's worth) that does not credit him for any Illuminati work. I don't know if that's the guy or not.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jun 2, 2007 16:33:18 GMT -5
My bad, Fraction co-writes IRON FIST it was indeed Reed.
Nevertheless, they are Co-Writers, not Head Writer and Under Writer, this isn't Countdown. Once more Tone, you have no reason to assume it was Bendis and Bendis alone.
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Post by uberwolf on Jun 2, 2007 22:57:58 GMT -5
Nevertheless, they are Co-Writers, not Head Writer and Under Writer, this isn't Countdown. Once more Tone, you have no reason to assume it was Bendis and Bendis alone. And yet, the story is still crap. Bendis is involved and stupidity ensues. I see a pattern here. Hopefully other writers at Marvel are not trying to copy him.
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Post by imperiusrex on Jun 3, 2007 3:23:54 GMT -5
I can't wait to find out what the Beyonder's rationale was now that his origin has been completely changed... His nascent sort of burst to awareness from the ether made some sense in an odd way, but now that he was a thinking mortal at some point who just went all God on us is going to be a different take to say the least. ah who am I kidding? I'm gonna hate it...
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Post by Alchemist-X on Jun 3, 2007 4:39:33 GMT -5
After the first two issues of NA Illuminati I was pretty pleased all in all, but this issue was lackluster.
Art was nice, Namor shone this issue, but a lack of Iron Man(Correct for the timeline represented, it would have been Rhodey in the IM armour during this storyline) kinda took away from the whole team dynamic.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jun 3, 2007 6:38:34 GMT -5
To be fair, the Beyonder ALWAYS had a rubbish origin, this is just going with the established canon
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Post by thew40 on Jun 3, 2007 7:28:47 GMT -5
To be fair, the Beyonder ALWAYS had a rubbish origin, this is just going with the established canon Until the next person decides to change it. ~W~
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Post by dlw66 on Jun 3, 2007 12:39:22 GMT -5
Until the next person decides to change it. ~W~ Anyone else think there's too much of that these days?
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Post by thew40 on Jun 3, 2007 12:42:31 GMT -5
It's not anything new. Just take the original Human Torch and Vision, for example. They've been reconted a lot.
~W~
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Post by imperiusrex on Jun 3, 2007 13:23:40 GMT -5
It's not anything new. Just take the original Human Torch and Vision, for example. They've been reconted a lot. ~W~ Vizh and Torch retconned? Sure. Within the context of the existing storylines, tho'. If you follow the history of the characters it makes a convoluted, but overall complete, picture of their existence. This sounds much more like a complete reworking and ignoring what happened before. Will have to read it to be definitive, but there's a difference between what has occured with the Vision and the Beyonder...
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Post by Alchemist-X on Jun 3, 2007 14:16:01 GMT -5
Marvel is so old nowaday to make any big moves without retroconing something. Permanent effects from stories started over 30 years ago, so thats 30 years of continuity to contend with.
The NA illuminati is a sort of secret past story, so some retcon may happen, but the 3rd issue seemed to lack any real point.
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Post by thew40 on Jun 3, 2007 18:28:22 GMT -5
Marvel is so old nowaday to make any big moves without retroconing something. Permanent effects from stories started over 30 years ago, so thats 30 years of continuity to contend with. The NA illuminati is a sort of secret past story, so some retcon may happen, but the 3rd issue seemed to lack any real point. Agreed, mostly. Some retcons can be good things and bad, though it's all in the eye of the beholder. For example -- I hate the fact that Phoenix and Jean weren't the same person back during the early 80s. If it was retconned that they were the same person, then I'd be happy. Retcons can be bad, too. I hated the whole "chaos magic doesn't exist" idea that poped up during "Disassembled." Now, like I said earlier, I find this retcon pretty much meaningless. After "Secret Wars," the Beyonder was already an over-complicated mess. I was happy with him just being some super-huge cosmic entity. But "Secret Wars" is a big event, so it would make the most sense that Bendis would want to deal with it. And to be honest, I find the whole Mutant-Inhuman thing much more interesting than the whole "living Cosmic Cube" concept (did I write this earlier too?). Unless it's being set-up for a later event in which the Beyonder returns (which, written by the right person, would be awesome), it's pretty much meaningless. ~W~
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Post by The Night Phantom on Jun 3, 2007 21:33:19 GMT -5
Thank you, Tone-Loc, for your detailed answer to my question. Thou hast been exalted!
For all intents and purposes, the Beyonder was killed during "Annihilation." Wha—?!?
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Post by thew40 on Jun 3, 2007 21:40:33 GMT -5
For all intents and purposes, the Beyonder was killed during "Annihilation." Wha—?!?Yeah, I guess the Beyonder battled Thanos back during his shortlived on-going and was killed or rendered comatose. He/she/it then ended up in a prison at the edge of the universe. After teaming up with Annhilius, Thanos sent the Fallen One to check on the Beyonder (as the prison was the first hit by the Annihilation Wave) and the Fallen One reported back that the Beyonder was killed/still dead. ~W~
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Post by uberwolf on Jun 3, 2007 22:03:09 GMT -5
Yeah, I guess the Beyonder battled Thanos back during his shortlived on-going and was killed or rendered comatose. He/she/it then ended up in a prison at the edge of the universe. After teaming up with Annhilius, Thanos sent the Fallen One to check on the Beyonder (as the prison was the first hit by the Annihilation Wave) and the Fallen One reported back that the Beyonder was killed/still dead. ~W~ That screwy Thanos... always up to something. I'd like to see him on the Thunderbolts.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Jun 3, 2007 22:11:30 GMT -5
Yeah, I guess the Beyonder battled Thanos back during his shortlived on-going and was killed or rendered comatose. He/she/it then ended up in a prison at the edge of the universe. After teaming up with Annhilius, Thanos sent the Fallen One to check on the Beyonder (as the prison was the first hit by the Annihilation Wave) and the Fallen One reported back that the Beyonder was killed/still dead. OK, I’ll exalt you too!
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Post by The Night Phantom on Jun 3, 2007 22:15:01 GMT -5
By the way, here’s a hypothesis: Illuminati #3’s revelations about the Beyonder are falsehoods devised by the Cosmically Cubed Beyonder himself!
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Post by Alchemist-X on Jun 3, 2007 23:39:28 GMT -5
well the Kree Skrull war, the Infinity Gauntlet and the Beyonder would all be worth projects for the Illuminati, the first two were just better executed.
I wonder what the remaining events covered in the next issues will be.
Onslaught? Heroes reobrn or return maybe? or maybe a post contest of champions 2 battle with the brood? Hopefully its more with the secret history part and less with the retconing for the sake of retconing.
Also on that note, if a new storyline pops out of any of these setups it will help validate them further (Especially the most recent one)
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Post by Nutcase65 on Jun 8, 2007 8:33:14 GMT -5
I don't understand why they can't just leave some things alone. Is there some driving force that makes this cureent staff fell they have to mark their territory on every aspect past and present of the MU?
It's almost like they're not even writing about universr 616 any more.
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Post by Tana Nile on Jun 8, 2007 11:24:35 GMT -5
I don't understand why they can't just leave some things alone. Is there some driving force that makes this cureent staff fell they have to mark their territory on every aspect past and present of the MU? It's almost like they're not even writing about universr 616 any more. "Mark their territory" - well put Nutty! Then again, I guess every generation of comics pros do it. I still cringe when I think about Alicia hooking up with Johnny.... (and of course, that was later retconned into a skrull!)
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Post by von Bek on Jun 8, 2007 12:38:26 GMT -5
I don't understand why they can't just leave some things alone. Is there some driving force that makes this cureent staff fell they have to mark their territory on every aspect past and present of the MU? It's almost like they're not even writing about universr 616 any more. "Mark their territory" - well put Nutty! Mark their territory - like dogs do? I would like to see a In the House showing that. On second thought, no I would not... Then again, I guess every generation of comics pros do it. I still cringe when I think about Alicia hooking up with Johnny.... (and of course, that was later retconned into a skrull!) On thing is a writer that develops the story in a way we dont like, another is what the current guys working at Marvel are doing, just changing everything to fit the stories they want to tell...
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Post by dlw66 on Jun 8, 2007 13:44:22 GMT -5
I still cringe when I think about Alicia hooking up with Johnny.... (and of course, that was later retconned into a skrull!) But that's a retcon I don't mind, because it put something back the way it should always have been. Sure, there were some good story mechanisms along the way, but I don't think in the long run Ben and Alicia should have stayed apart.
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