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Post by tomspasic on Jun 28, 2010 18:17:54 GMT -5
Yes, pre-Bendis there were some Avengers who were not that great. And in fairness I should say that had Busiek or Englehart bought in Cage or Spider-man, I would have had no problem with them, most likely. Ultimately there are no bad characters, just better or worse writers and artists. Non-Bendis avengers who have not sent my pulse racing might actually be a few of Busiek's recruits, for me. Justice, Firestar, Triathlon and Silverclaw never seemed to "gel" within the team, to my mind. I think that as others have observed, too much new blood, too quickly, can leave the reader (and maybe the writer) unable to "integrate" new characters into the team. Druid and Gilgamesh are sort of obvious choices, and to some extent Sersi. But Druid could have worked, had he not basically been used as he was, and Gilgamesh was simply underused. Again, they seemed to come in in times of a higher number of new faces (of course, Hawkeye, Wanda and Pietro do somewhat blow that theory out of the water, but maybe they are exceptions that prove the rule). In many ways Englehart's pet character Mantis was forced onto the team and into a "starring" role in much the same way as Jessica Jones. But Englehart had some stories to tell with and about Mantis, and she worked better for me than, say the Falcon, or War-Machine, or USAgent.
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Post by starfoxxx on Jul 7, 2010 13:41:50 GMT -5
Crystal- she epitomizes the "beginning of the end" for me, the whole title just went to crap @#344. And her boring side-stories really featured too prominently, the issues with just her and Pietro- blechhhhh, wtf?
Rage- even though he never reached "full-time" status, he wasted alot of time. Rage seemed like a really dumb JLA plot.
Dr Druid- yeah, he sucked hard
Gilgamesh- booooring! nice diaper.
Luke cage- I loved him in the 70's-80's....his Bendis revamp sucks, though, what a shame. Again, a good idea that quickly became boring.
Sersi- she sucked, except for that issue where she threw a party. Her personality was just a female Starfox, they should have just kept him around. She was also a victim of the Horrible costume era (jackets). Also, Sersi and Crystal practically have the same powers, right? Both their powers seemed a bit contrived and sometimes convenient, imo.
#7- a tie between Sentry and Ronin- just horrible, horrible, ideas, one played out to death (literally) and the other so confusing and just fizzled out.....so bad.
also making the turd-list D-man, Lionheart, Silverclaw, Triathlon, Teen Tony, Magdalene, Swordsman II, Deathcry, and Reed, Sue, and Ben.
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Post by Shiryu on Jul 8, 2010 8:18:38 GMT -5
Also, Sersi and Crystal practically have the same powers, right? It's been a while since I read those issues, but I thought their powers were quite different. Crystal could control elements, mostly wind, while Sersi basically could transform something into something else (like people in stone, an alien in a pig once and so on), right? I suppose she could do everything Crystal could, but not the other way around. Or am I totally confused?
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Post by scottharris on Jul 8, 2010 9:10:35 GMT -5
I think you have it right, shiryu. Sersi's powers were really vague, but it seemed like she could essentially do the same thing as Molecule Man, except on a smaller scale. Crystal on the other hand could control the elements I guess? Kind of like Storm, but again on a smaller scale. I would think that Sersi could emulate most of Crystal's powers but not the other way around. Sersi was so ill defined, though, that she did come across as a deus ex machina most of the time.
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Post by sharkar on Jul 13, 2010 20:05:31 GMT -5
Ooooooh, it's just that the Death of Jean Grey arc was such a landmark event, and I found it so personally moving-- and then bringing her back to life in such a convoluted and contrived manner was, to me, an absolute negation of the validity of that storyline. Makes sense. You know, HB, I'd probably feel as you do had I been reading comics back then. I'm playing catch up (reading stuff from 1972-2006 and not necessarily in order) because of my 30 year hiatus from comics, so a lot of my reading is out of context. Naturally I try to understand what was going on at the time, but the material won't have the same emotional pull that it would have had I read it when it was first issued. I envy your comics experience. (I must confess that the X-Men actually set this precedent many years earlier when Prof. X died in the mid-60's--- but it proved to be a previously unknown mutant standing in for him. Good grief. But no one was reading the book then, so I don't think it had widespread coverage. . . ) LOL--now I was reading the book back then, so this is an event I can relate to!!! You see, X-Men #40 was my first X-Men comic. I missed #41 and then I bought #42, which featured "The Death of Professor X!" Okay, so it was only my second X-Men issue and I didn't know the characters all that well; I still knew enough to know that he was a major player in the book and that in comics major characters don't die. I remember being stunned. The next issue (#43)opened with his funeral, and the X-Men mourned him for several issues. The X-Men comic was heart-wrenching, and it quickly became my favorite Marvel comic. In many interviews Neal Adams says it was his idea to bring back Professor X. It seems Roy Thomas gave NA carte blanche, at least that's what implied in interviews about their X-collaboration--I guess RT wasn't too concerned about the X-Men's plots because the book was kind of under the radar back then and scheduled to be canceled...). Anyway, Prof. Xavier returned in #65 but the comic was canceled with #66 (X-Men face the Hulk, art by S. Buscema!). BTW, the Changeling was not a "previously unknown mutant"; he'd appeared during the Factor Three arc, briefly in #35/6 (unnamed), and more prominently in #37-39. But I agree with you that the stand-in explanation was contrived. It's one of the few times I've liked grouchy ol' Quicksilver, 'cause it explained perfectly what living in a slow-motion world was like for him, and our having that understanding perfectly colored all of his interactions for us. I agree, an effective--and justly famous--sequence courtesy of PAD/Joe Q.
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Post by sharkar on Jul 13, 2010 21:28:48 GMT -5
It's been a while since I read those issues, but I thought their powers were quite different. Crystal could control elements, mostly wind, while Sersi basically could transform something into something else (like people in stone, an alien in a pig once and so on), right? I suppose she could do everything Crystal could, but not the other way around. I think you have it right, shiryu. Sersi's powers were really vague, but it seemed like she could essentially do the same thing as Molecule Man, except on a smaller scale. Crystal on the other hand could control the elements I guess? Kind of like Storm, but again on a smaller scale. I would think that Sersi could emulate most of Crystal's powers but not the other way around. Sersi was so ill defined, though, that she did come across as a deus ex machina most of the time. Shiryu and Scott are exactly right. While both Crystal and Sersi are very powerful (hey, just ask Dane Whitman! ;D), their actual powers are different. Crystal: You'll notice that her power usually manifests itself as variations on the theme of the four traditional "elements"--fire, water, air,and earth. For example in the recent War of Kings/Realm of Kings series she could animate a stone (earth) statue of Black Bolt, she could remove oxygen from the atmosphere (and so induce suffocation in an oxygen breather), she could cause a fire to burn more strongly, etc. Sersi: The Circe of classical literature is said to have the power of transmutation and/or illusion casting (among other attributes), so it's fitting that our Sersi has these powers too. Marvel's Sersi also has other psionic abilities such as teleportation; and she can emit energy force beams. (She's like a one-woman X-Men team, it seems!). Since she's an Eternal she's also essentially immortal, or at least she ages verryyy slowly. ...while Sersi basically could transform something into something else (like...an alien in a pig...) Reminds one of the famous sequence in The Odyssey...right, Shiryu?
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Post by Shiryu on Jul 14, 2010 6:19:21 GMT -5
Reminds one of the famous sequence in The Odyssey...right, Shiryu? Indeed
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Post by humanbelly on Jul 14, 2010 8:40:43 GMT -5
Reminds one of the famous sequence in The Odyssey...right, Shiryu? Indeed Wait a minute, wait a minute- Sersi? Circe? . . . . *gasp* Oh my GOD! It's. . . it's all CONNECTED! It's the grassy knoll and Paul Is Dead and Easter Island and the DaVinci Code all over again--! Ohhhhhhh, where are Scully & Muldar when you need 'em. . .?? HB
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nova36
Force Works-er
Posts: 19
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Post by nova36 on Jul 17, 2010 7:36:57 GMT -5
I have looked at this thread for over a month now trying to come up with a list and i really can't...i mean how can i limit my choice to just 7...really..but here goes my own worst 7 most will be from post 2004 on..i am warning you all. 1.) The incredible Hulk aha fooled ya all...a tragic figure the reason for the avengers and yet a bad choice for a teammate, the Avengers have tried several times to make it work with the Hulk yet it never does..i feel bad for the guy but.... 2.) Dr. Druid What a waste... in the beginning i could almost like this guy..the contrast between him and She-hulk..a poor man's doc strange, it almost worked but then you had to go and pick on Monica and fall in love with nebula...ohh doc druid WHY ?!? it did not end well for the good doctor. 3.) Silverclaw A nice sweet girl, Jarvis sponsored her..turns into a pseudo-goddess....umm OK, i think of storm when i think of her. It's just meh for me..really maybe she could have been a New Warrior or that new comic young allies but an Avenger...really? 4.) Ronin Pick one i don't care, echo is meh, never believed it was her under that suit, power set is neat but not much was ever done with her so she gives it up and ...Clint becomes the new Ronin..it just never worked master of all these weapons and yet always seemed to find the bow and arrow..i am glad that phase is over...whew 5.) Jewel ( Jessica Jones) Or Luke cage's better half no i am not talking bout Danny. she is in the Avengers because she is Luke cage's girlfriend..she a mom that's it soo we can't have mary jane be married to spidey but it's ok for Jess...OK ( i just never liked her might be too hard on her.) 6.) Sersi/Crystal Two sides of the same coin ..should never have been Avengers..they both work better in their own corners of the Marvel U. Sersi is great in the Eternals but when she mixes with other parts cept for a guest shot ehh. As for Crystal..well she works in a team concept..cept not the Avengers..she is OK in the FF , the Inhumans etc. Has been great in the current Inhumans mini, works as a Pov Chara i am really starting to like Cyrs again, but boy she was not a good Avenger. 7.) The Sentry Here we have our winner the worst Avenger EVER !!!! I have never met a more unlikeable Chara ever..i am soo glad he is dead..i hope he is dead, please tell me he is dead. Did anything with this guy ever work? i can't even get into it i mean there are better superman type charas in the Marvel U ..for my money it's Gladiator, after awhile i did not even care bout the Void etc. well that's it i did not mention The forgotten one cause it's not his fault..was bad writing , he has been an OK Chara in other books, wolvie works..spidey has been an avengers for a long time now even before bendis and the rest well i can look past it.
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Post by humanbelly on Jul 17, 2010 13:50:52 GMT -5
[LOL--now I was reading the book back then, so this is an event I can relate to!!! You see, X-Men #40 was my first X-Men comic. I missed #41 and then I bought #42, which featured "The Death of Professor X!" Okay, so it was only my second X-Men issue and I didn't know the characters all that well; I still knew enough to know that he was a major player in the book and that in comics major characters don't die. I remember being stunned. The next issue (#43)opened with his funeral, and the X-Men mourned him for several issues. The X-Men comic was heart-wrenching, and it quickly became my favorite Marvel comic. Hey-- X-Men #43 was the first X-Men comic I ever read! My Mom got one of those illegitimate 3-packs of coverless comics at a thrift store, and it was included. I was probably, what, 8 or 9 years old, maybe? And, even though my buddy & I had been swiping his brother's comic books for quite some time, I had no clue who these people were. Even back then they weren't quite as "mainstream" in the Marvel Universe. In spite of that, though, this story really sucked me in. Even as a kid I recognized that I was looking in on an extremely traumatic moment in these people's world, and that this was an unusual event in a comic book. I couldn't quite figure out how there could be such a full-blown life going on in these books, and I'd never heard of them. HB
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Post by humanbelly on Jul 17, 2010 13:57:50 GMT -5
I have looked at this thread for over a month now trying to come up with a list and i really can't...i mean how can i limit my choice to just 7...really..but here goes my own worst 7 most will be from post 2004 on..i am warning you all. 1.) The incredible Hulk aha fooled ya all...a tragic figure the reason for the avengers and yet a bad choice for a teammate, the Avengers have tried several times to make it work with the Hulk yet it never does..i feel bad for the guy but.... ) I. . . I can't argue w/ Nova's or Rosecarver's inclusion of the Hulk on this list, surprising as that may be. He absolutely fits the very criteria I suggested. He's battled the Avengers (in his less-satient incarnations) far, far more often than he's fought by their side. Nope, not a recipe for being a successful member. HB
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Post by sharkar on Jul 18, 2010 20:10:24 GMT -5
Hey-- X-Men #43 was the first X-Men comic I ever read! My Mom got one of those illegitimate 3-packs of coverless comics at a thrift store, and it was included. And I've read about their existence, but back in the day I never came across those coverless 3-packs in any of the stores where I usually bought comics. I did come across a coverless Avengers #40 in a bodega once, about a year after its publication date (so it would have been some time in 1968). I can't remember what it sold for (probably less than 12 cents), but I bought it. I never actually saw #40's cover until a few years ago, when I got back into comics and bought as many old Avengers comics as I could. Pietro shows up at the funeral (at the start of X-Men #43)--just curious, HB, was that the first time you saw him (and Wanda, who's also in X #43), or had you already seen them in the Avengers? (X-Men #43 was part of the Magneto arc that began in Avengers #47-49 and then moved over to X-Men #43-45, before concluding in Avengers #53.) And, even though my buddy & I had been swiping his brother's comic books for quite some time... LOL, that reminds me that I used to occasionally swipe--er, borrow, my cousins'comics (this would have been before I was allowed to buy comics on my own). They had a huge collection of DCs, not only typical stuff like Superman, Batman and all the comics Supes and Bats appeared in (Action, Detective, Jimmy Olsen, Adventure, World's Finest, Brave and the Bold, JLA, etc.) but also less popular fare such as Flash, Hawkman, Atom, the Doom Patrol, Blackhawk, DC's war titles, and even Jerry Lewis. They also had a handful of Gold Key TV-based comics, such as Dick Van D yke and Dell western comics. But absolutely no Marvels!
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Post by humanbelly on Jul 20, 2010 15:25:05 GMT -5
[Pietro shows up at the funeral (at the start of X-Men #43)--just curious, HB, was that the first time you saw him (and Wanda, who's also in X #43), or had you already seen them in the Avengers? It was! It was the first time I'd seen them, and I had no idea who these characters were, either. I think the only Avengers comics I'd read around that time were issues 58 through 66 (minus 64), and I wasn't at all well-versed in the interconnectedness of the Marvel Universe. I'm not sure I was even entirely aware that Superman and Batman were being produced by a rival company of the Hulk's & Captain America's. I was just reading all of them that my pal was loaning to me (I was down with a LOT of childhood illnesses around 3rd grade, and those huge grocery bags full of comics kept me very engaged). Anyhoo, I didn't connect those two characters (Wanda & Pietro) w/ the ones depicted in that great splash panel of previous Avengers in #58. Had no idea who Hercules was either. Similarly, I had no idea who that group in the corner was during Hank & Jan's wedding. . . which means I must have gotten that old X-book after I'd started all of this reading. Honestly, one of the great, great joys of that time for me was the feeling of coming into the middle of something great & wondrous, and- rather than feeling left out- being able to work backward and put all of those pieces together over time. Marvel, of course, had a particular knack for giving just enough exposition to allow the reader's intuition to provide the rest. Then when a long-coveted back-issue is acquired (Avengers #64, Hulk #115, X-Men #100, etc), there's the added gratification of finding out how close you were to being right about what you'd imagined. I must say, I'm not sure I would find that to be the case with Marvel today. . . (Possibly Thor. . . ?) HB
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Post by sharkar on Jul 22, 2010 19:40:04 GMT -5
I was just reading all of them that my pal was loaning to me (I was down with a LOT of childhood illnesses around 3rd grade, and those huge grocery bags full of comics kept me very engaged). Now that's a great friend! Anyhoo, I didn't connect those two characters (Wanda & Pietro) w/ the ones depicted in that great splash panel of previous Avengers in #58. Had no idea who Hercules was either. I love that page too and I remember being so happy that Wanda and Pietro were included (they'd left the team in #53, as I mentioned); and it was also good to see Natasha and Herc there, and I knew the Hulk had been a member. But when I saw Spidey, I wondered why!!Okay, Thor is talking about the Avengers and their associates, but I was still bothered by this (seemed like crass commercialism to me). Later on, I found out Spidey had been asked to join the team, in Spider-Man Special/Annual #3, 1966, so I guess that had to count for something. Y'know, speaking of glorious Buscema Avengers pin-ups, had you also seen the two-page team pin-up in Avengers Special/Annual #2 (1968) back then? This issue was released around the same time as Avengers #56...so, a couple of months before #58. This pin-up also includes Wanda, Pietro, Herc, and the Hulk as well as the Big Three, and the then-core team Jan, Hank, Hawkeye and T'Challa; but it was arachnid-free (i.e., no Spidey or Widow!). Honestly, one of the great, great joys of that time for me was the feeling of coming into the middle of something great & wondrous, and- rather than feeling left out- being able to work backward and put all of those pieces together over time. I know exactly how you feel, HB. My first Marvels were FF #68 and Avengers #45 (1967) and both issues opened with references to recent past events. It was like being plunged into the middle of a sprawling novel...and as you said, I wanted to find out more about the characters and what had gone on previously! Very different from the DCs I'd read, most which were like self-contained short stories. I then discovered Marvel Collector's Item Classics (later called Marvel's Greatest Comics), which reprinted the early FF stories, so I was reading the current FF along with the old FF. And a couple of years later when Marvel Super-Heroes started reprinting the old X-Men stories, I finally read the stories involving Wanda and Pietro's stint with Magneto and the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants. It was very satisfying to fill in the gaps. Marvel, of course, had a particular knack for giving just enough exposition to allow the reader's intuition to provide the rest. Yep. As opposed to DC, where every issue of Superman/Action/Lois/Jimmy/World's Finest had the obligatory caption "Superman changes into his secret identity of Clark Kent, the mild-mannered reporter for the Daily Planet." And yeah, I know back then DC had a completely different take on its audience than Marvel did, but it still seemed so juvenile to constantly repeat the same exposition every single issue!!(Though later on, in '68, DC would start to change and attempt to Marvelize/become more realistic in order to appeal to older readers.)
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