"Cease to resist me, and you may live to see another day!" --SuperSkrull
Joined: May 2009 Posts: 1,343 Location: DC Metropolitan area Karma: 55
The Ongoing Avengers "core" title. . . « Thread Started on Aug 29, 2010, 1:28pm »
Saya teammates-- I. . . have a sneaky hunch that not a lot of folks on our happy board are reading this title--- is that the case? Certainly no sustained discussion of it has appeared since issue #1. I ranted about it for a bit in another thread (mistakenly refering to it as New Avengers), but one wonders what other folks' experience of the title is.
After getting through issue #4, I'd say that my views are still consistent. The plot idea itself certainly has potential, and is plenty "Avengery"--- but it's still moving at a GLACIAL pace. SO MUCH of the script and visual effects are given over to cleverly presenting the temporal chaos going on, that very little happens in the way of substantial events. I daresay the point we've reached at the end of the 4th issue could easily have been reached by the end of the 2nd. And still w/ JRjr, while he has a tremendously dynamic style, and is often terrific in some sequences (I, too, like his Thor & his Spidey), there is often a dreadful lack of clarity in his drawing. To some degree (though not as badly), he'll remind me of Keith Giffen, where you look at a panel or a page, and can't, for the life you, quite figure out what you're looking at. AND-- with both Spidey & Hawkeye in the mix, we should be hearing BOTH of them chatter endlessly. I'm sure I remember them having a seriously terrific comic dynamic from a few team-ups decades ago. I get that BMB is apparently on record with not liking Hawkeye-- but Hawkeye is chronically incapable of NOT trying to be the center of attention in a group situation like this, even if it's with clowning and/or making wise-cracks. (It's ironic that BMB can't keep snarky comments out of the mouths of characters not prone to them, and yet doesn't seem to be able to deliver them from a mouth-prone character like Clint. . .). Conversely, we have Wolverine, who has somehow become a veritable chatterbox, and has dropped ALL of his idiosyncratic speech habits (remember when he almost NEVER used to talk? And called everyone "Bub"? And dropped his g's at the ends of "ing" words? And said "o' " instead of "of"?), and just seems like any other superhero. Bleah.
Okay-- so. . . I'm still reading this title. Still hangin' on. . .
Re: The Ongoing Avengers "core" title. . . « Reply #1 on Aug 30, 2010, 2:01pm »
Hi, folks. My first post on this esteemed message board, and .. it's to moan about JRJR's art. I agree that some of his sequences look dynamic, but I think his artwork on Thor (especially) is terrible. Thor looks expressionless in most panels. I think this premiere title would be better served with a new artist. Actually, I feel so strongly about getting JRJR off the book, I created a Facebook Group for anyone who feels the same. If you're inclined, you too can join up here: http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=124362984272455&ref=ts
Re: The Ongoing Avengers "core" title. . . « Reply #2 on Aug 31, 2010, 2:47pm »
Well, I'd agree with both of you, and Belly saying that there's plenty of "Avengery" is true, but the pacing is just off. Also, Bendis' writing is just seemingly horrid, much because the people who ARE joking SHOULDN'T, and the people who SHOULD be, aren't. While I understand Bendis may not be a huge Clint fan, one would think the fact he's got him on the team of BOTH the "Avengers" and "New Avengers", he's starting to warm up to him.
I'd also agree that it seems to be going twice as long to do anything, as this feels like a two issue story so far drawn out over four months. The art I'm not a huge fan of, but I'm trying to let the story carry the day. Too bad neither is working for me. Right now, while I am holding on, this book is probably the fourth or fifth "Avengers" title in priority right now.
"Cease to resist me, and you may live to see another day!" --SuperSkrull
Joined: May 2009 Posts: 1,343 Location: DC Metropolitan area Karma: 55
Re: The Ongoing Avengers "core" title. . . « Reply #3 on Aug 31, 2010, 3:27pm »
Y'know, I completely forgot to mention that the offhand, flippant comment Spidey makes about the Green Goblin killing his (Pete's) girlfriend was, in my book, a firing-level offence. For both writer and editor. Both of 'em. This shows such a profound and callous disregard for the nature of the character, his humanity, and his history that it completely calls into question their ability meet the responsibility inherent in writing & handling him. There are neon letters on their foreheads saying "WE DON'T REALLY GET IT, NOR DO WE REALLY CARE".
I subsequently tried to explain the whole "Gwen's fully grown love-children via a tryst w/ Norman Osborn" thing to SonofHB, and he nearly jumped out of the car. He yelled "WHAT???" so loudly that it drew the attention of other folks stopped at the light. . .
Y'know, I completely forgot to mention that the offhand, flippant comment Spidey makes about the Green Goblin killing his (Pete's) girlfriend was, in my book, a firing-level offence. For both writer and editor. Both of 'em. This shows such a profound and callous disregard for the nature of the character, his humanity, and his history that it completely calls into question their ability meet the responsibility inherent in writing & handling him. There are neon letters on their foreheads saying "WE DON'T REALLY GET IT, NOR DO WE REALLY CARE".
I subsequently tried to explain the whole "Gwen's fully grown love-children via a tryst w/ Norman Osborn" thing to SonofHB, and he nearly jumped out of the car. He yelled "WHAT???" so loudly that it drew the attention of other folks stopped at the light. . .
Y'know, I completely forgot to mention that the offhand, flippant comment Spidey makes about the Green Goblin killing his (Pete's) girlfriend was, in my book, a firing-level offence. For both writer and editor. Both of 'em. This shows such a profound and callous disregard for the nature of the character, his humanity, and his history that it completely calls into question their ability meet the responsibility inherent in writing & handling him. There are neon letters on their foreheads saying "WE DON'T REALLY GET IT, NOR DO WE REALLY CARE".
I subsequently tried to explain the whole "Gwen's fully grown love-children via a tryst w/ Norman Osborn" thing to SonofHB, and he nearly jumped out of the car. He yelled "WHAT???" so loudly that it drew the attention of other folks stopped at the light. . .
HB
I must have missed this, where was this at?!
It was one of the later Spidey arcs before "Brand New Day", I think. I don't remember which title it was in-- it was before they all turned into "Amazing". It may have even been before Civil War. It was--- horrible. A sensationalistic raping of the memory of a beloved, departed character just to serve a contrived plot idea (basically, bringing a Gwen look-alike into the picture). Another firing offence in my book, just for the record.
Joined: Nov 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 2,788 Location: England / Italy Karma: 101
Re: The Ongoing Avengers "core" title. . . « Reply #6 on Sept 1, 2010, 8:01pm »
That's probably the single worst thing Marvel has done in the last 10 years. I know that it's not what JMS wanted to write, that he later tried to retcon it out of continuity and was denied, but regardless write it he did, and it's a black spot on his Spider run.
As for Avengers, I have mixed feelings about it. It's not that things don't happen in the book, is that they seem to happen in a chaotic way, with villains coming and going within pages. We have had Apocalypse, Kang, Wonder Man, now the Martians, while the main plot moves terribly slowly. BUT, there are also things I enjoyed. Spider-Man is more scientifically-competent for example, Thor is the powerhouse he should be and the Killraven bit was a really nice touch for me.
So I think because I wasn't expecting much from this title I've been positively surprised, whereas for example Secret Avengers, for which I had much higher expectations to begin with, is disappointing me at the moment. I just wish JR jr would do better. I'm not a huge fan nor a hater of his current work, but here it seems particularly rushed. He has done much better on other titles.
Hi, folks. My first post on this esteemed message board, and .. it's to moan about JRJR's art. I agree that some of his sequences look dynamic, but I think his artwork on Thor (especially) is terrible. Thor looks expressionless in most panels. I think this premiere title would be better served with a new artist. Actually, I feel so strongly about getting JRJR off the book, I created a Facebook Group for anyone who feels the same. If you're inclined, you too can join up here: http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=124362984272455&ref=ts
Like humanbelly; I'm still hangin' on.
Kenners
Totally forgot to say "welcome aboard", Kenners! Please, chime in more--! Go ahead & introduce yourself--- maybe chime in on some of Shiryu's enlightening list-oriented threads, eh? (Gets the ol' analytical juices a-pumping. . . )
pulpcitizen Probationary Avenger member is offline
Joined: Jan 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 77 Karma: 6
Re: The Ongoing Avengers "core" title. . . « Reply #8 on Jan 31, 2011, 7:40am »
The biggest disappoinment for me in this new volume so far has been the art; I just don't think JRjr and Avengers are a good fit. I liked his X-Men stuff, I liked his more recent eternals mini, but this just doesn't work for me - especially in comparison to Immomen's stellar art on NA.
Personally I feel NA should have the more stylised artist, with Avengers having a cleaner look; I think an artist like Tom Grummett or Mark Bagley might be a nicer fit.
The biggest disappoinment for me in this new volume so far has been the art; I just don't think JRjr and Avengers are a good fit. I liked his X-Men stuff, I liked his more recent eternals mini, but this just doesn't work for me - especially in comparison to Immomen's stellar art on NA.
Perosnally I feel NA should have the mnore stylised artist, with Avengers having a cleaner look; I think an artist like Tom Grummett or Mark Bagley might be a nicer fit.
Hmm. That's a very solid suggestion, in fact. Move Immonem (sp?) over to Mighty, and see if Bagley's available for New A. Really liked Mark's work on Thunderbolts quite a ways back-- and his lighter artistic style may help to downplay Bendis' odd mixture of self-importance and misplaced irreverance. . .
Hey, and remind me-- weren't they the initial creators of Ultimate Spiderman?
"Cease to resist me, and you may live to see another day!" --SuperSkrull
Joined: May 2009 Posts: 1,343 Location: DC Metropolitan area Karma: 55
Re: The Ongoing Avengers "core" title. . . « Reply #11 on Feb 13, 2011, 7:13am »
Back to the core Avengers title--- ol' HB is still reading it (as a public service. . . so that you won't have to). Just read #'s 8 & 9 together. JRjr's art has taken a turn for the somewhat better-- he's looking MUCH less rushed-- but I'll probably never fall in love with his rough, extremely minimalist style in a book where being able to tell the 18 or so on-hand Avengers apart is sort of a key element of success (Is it Steve Rogers? Is it Hawkeye? Is it Nova? Geeze-- is it Quicksilver? Wait-- is Quicksilver even here???).
The ongoing arc is that Parker. . . Lewis, is it?. . .y'know, The Hood. . . is systematically tracking down and swiping the Infinity Gems, to serve whatever end he has in mind. The forward momentum of the plot is a little hard to track, because much of what "happens" in the title is in fact told as flashbacks. Actual plot movement? In #8, the Illuminati re-convene (w/ Medusa replacing Black Bolt) and sort of bumble their way to the conclusion that something really bad is going on; while the Red Hulk tells the Avengers team in general about a really horrific fight he had w/ the Hood. In #9, the Illuminati are sort of shamed into admitting they exist in front of everyone, and then they all figure out that the Hood is stealing the Infinity Gems. I'm guessing that the result of issue #10 will be Spiderman and Wolverine asking "So what'll we do now?".
And yet, this is still far more readable than that horrible first arc we slogged through (w/ Kang & Apocalypse & the Maestro & the end of all Time, etc, etc, etc). But it's mostly just the same old ploy of focusing half the book on Parker's exploits while an absurdly HUGE complement of heroes are either searching for something, tailing other heroes, or literally just standing around listening to other heroes talk. I would swear this is a snarky counter-strike on Bendis' part against the criticism he SURELY received about that chaotic first arc. "Oh? They didn't like massive numbers of heroes battling senslessly up and down the timestream?? HA! Then I'll give them even MORE heroes battling NO ONE AT ALL for whole ISSUES AT A TIME!!!! See how they like THEM apples!!! (Criticize ME, will they? HAHAHAHAHAAA!)"
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