scottharris Avengers Founding Member member is offline
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Re: new blog « Reply #30 on Nov 4, 2009, 10:13am »
Quote:
I do notice that these are all, like, 20 year old events.
In the current Amazing Spider-man storyline, there was a segment that caused a good deal of internet outrage. I haven't read it myself, but apparently the Chameleon disguised himself as Peter Parker and it was strongly implied that he then had sex with Peter's female roommate. When the real Peter shows up back at the pad, his roommate now suddenly begins acting like a nagging, overbearing girlfriend, much to his confusion; the sequence was basically played for laughs. After the hue and cry about this -- both the initial act and the sitcommy treatment of how it affected the girl's personality -- Marvel stated that Chameleon didn't really sleep with her, they just "made out". From what I gather, most people who read the story thought this was pretty much an instant retcon as just about everyone who read the issue came away with the impression that there was sex involved.
There have been a few of these things recently; I guess one benefit of the instant feedback and general combativeness of the internet audience is that these sorts of things don't slip by anymore without people noticing. The first issue of Cry For Justice over at DC caused got a lot of complaints as well thanks to a bit of man boasting between Green Arrow and Green Lantern about a supposed threeway that Lantern had with two drunk superheroines, Lady Blackhawk and The Huntress. Some complained about sexism and about the fact that, as part of Birds of Prey, these were some of the only strong female leads at DC and they were being undermined and reduced to a sex punchline; others, including former Birds of Prey writer Gail Simone, focused instead on the fact that this would have been completely out of character for The Huntress and thus damaged her character. Of course, some people also thought this was all overreaction to a throwaway one-liner, but at least people are talking about these issues.
Re: new blog « Reply #31 on Nov 4, 2009, 12:13pm »
See, in another situation, such talk (the "man boasting" you refer to) might not undermine the characters. You could just chalk it up to the man being a jerk, making it all up to impress is buddy, and move on. You might even get a little character development out of the women's reaction to.
But in superhero comics, you can't do stuff like that because it causes a catch-22. Either you undermine the female characters (if the story turns out to be true) or you undermine the male character who is supposed to be a hero and a standup guy (if the story turns out to be untrue).
It kind of reminds me of a story I heard about an issue of Iron Man back during Civil War. Apparently, the two writers were father and son, and the father (while a professional writer) had no experience writing super heroes. So they were writing a scene were Tony had gone out and bought a bottle of booze, but had it sitting unopened on his table, and Sue Richards surprises him and starts a huge argument over the choices he's made. Apparently, the (writer) son got up to use the bathroom, and when he came back Tony had punched Sue and knocked her on her ass, at which point the son had to explain to his father that you simply can't do stuff like that with superheroes and expect them to still be superheroes. The father couldn't understand because he was just writing the two characters as people, not as icons, and he felt like the emotions in the room at the time were right for that moment.
Yes, I wandered onto a tangent, but the point I'm trying to make is that superheroes are very tricky to write. What might be okay or interesting or a good creation of conflict for a more down-to-earth character often DOES NOT work with superheroes. At least, not if you expect them to continue being heroes.
See, in another situation, such talk (the "man boasting" you refer to) might not undermine the characters. You could just chalk it up to the man being a jerk, making it all up to impress is buddy, and move on. You might even get a little character development out of the women's reaction to.
Yes, this is true. When this argument happened, many people argued along those lines -- that this was just some idle talk, it's not even shown on panel or anything, guys do talk like that, etc. It is difficult in part for the reasons you stated but also because of the reputation that comics has developed -- it's kind of like the boy who cried wolf at this point, comics just have a rep now for mistreating women and so every little thing gets magnified.
In this case, I could see where people were coming from, but I didn't think it was a huge deal. The Spider-man stuff seemed more serious to me. But at this point there's definitely a portion of the population that is primed to take offense at pretty much everything because of the history of offensive stuff in comics. I frequently read stuff on the Wonder Woman forums at CBR even though I don't read Wonder Woman, and believe me, that fan base will read sexism into just about anything you can think of because of how their favorite characters have been treated in the past.
Of course, this has the unfortunate effect of also devaluing some genuine criticism as well. It's really become a very tricky issue.
See, in another situation, such talk (the "man boasting" you refer to) might not undermine the characters. You could just chalk it up to the man being a jerk, making it all up to impress is buddy, and move on. You might even get a little character development out of the women's reaction to.
Yes, this is true. When this argument happened, many people argued along those lines -- that this was just some idle talk, it's not even shown on panel or anything, guys do talk like that, etc. It is difficult in part for the reasons you stated but also because of the reputation that comics has developed -- it's kind of like the boy who cried wolf at this point, comics just have a rep now for mistreating women and so every little thing gets magnified.
In this case, I could see where people were coming from, but I didn't think it was a huge deal. The Spider-man stuff seemed more serious to me. But at this point there's definitely a portion of the population that is primed to take offense at pretty much everything because of the history of offensive stuff in comics. I frequently read stuff on the Wonder Woman forums at CBR even though I don't read Wonder Woman, and believe me, that fan base will read sexism into just about anything you can think of because of how their favorite characters have been treated in the past.
Of course, this has the unfortunate effect of also devaluing some genuine criticism as well. It's really become a very tricky issue.
You know what? I'll bet the mistake with that particular "man-boasting" incident (and quite possibly many others like it in recent years) is that a lot of writers forget that we can't HEAR how these words are being said. Tone is EVERYTHING when it comes to knowing whether or not to take a particulary stupid/offensive/inane comment seriously or not. It's a visual medium. Period. And unless the writer takes that into account, he will forever have to defend himself with an extremely lame claim of, "But that's not how I meant it to be taken!!" That three-way comment is so hopelessly crass (whether taken in earnest or not) that it would have been wise to just avoid it altogether. If necessary, resort to something subtle or wry-- which would be much more in keeping w/ GL's nature (well, unless he were Guy Gardner-- in which case he WOULD make a comment like that, and probably get punched in the nose by either of the other parties. . . )
scottharris Avengers Founding Member member is offline
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Re: new blog « Reply #34 on Nov 4, 2009, 2:59pm »
In fairness, it was Green Arrow who was boasting about Hal's performance, while Hal seemed a bit embarrassed by Arrow mentioning it. Here's the actual page in question:
I don't mind this in terms of the characterization of these two (and the art is beautiful) but I do think critics had a point about how it reduced those particular female characters to basically a punchline, and that it would have been out of character for the Huntress to be involved with such an event. I think the resulting internet controversy was maybe a little overblown but there were some valid concerns expressed. Plus, the rest of the issue was horrible; I hope Robinson gets his sea legs under him soon, because he used to be a great writer.
scottharris Avengers Founding Member member is offline
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Re: new blog « Reply #35 on Nov 4, 2009, 3:05pm »
For what it's worth, here's the Spider-man sequence in question as well. Here's Chameleon as Peter, getting it on with Peter's roommate:
And here's Peter's Roommate talking to the real Peter the next day, wearing his T-shirt and boxers and demanding more personal time:
How Marvel expects anyone to believe this is all supposed to depict just a make-out session is beyond me. I also think people are right to criticize the fact that not only is this rape, but it's played entirely for laughs by turning the roommate into the stereotypical needy girlfriend. Needless to say, a lot of female readers in particular weren't happy with either half of that equation.
Thanks for posting these. I couldn't see the second Spider-Man page, but that's okay. It clears up quite a bit (especially since I refuse to read Spider-Man these days).
Of the Green Arrow/Green Lantern page, I can see it from both sides. On the one hand--kinda funny from the perspective of characterization for the two main characters. On the other hand, if you were a fan of those two characters, I can see where it would be massively insulting. In fact, I rather like the modern Huntress (at least, I did when I was reading Batman years ago) and I can't believe for a second that she would ever be involved in such a thing. Plus, it does kind of cast Hal in a light that I would rather he wasn't. Fortunately, I don't read DC, so it's kind of abhorrent academically, but I don't really care that much.
The Chameleon situation, though, is truly disgusting. I could see it as a way to darken the Chameleon considerably, to make him truly horrific and stomach-turning (not unlike the way the Purple Man has been portrayed since ALIAS), but what kind of sick mind creates a situation like that for laughs???? I'm grateful that I DON'T read Spider-Man anymore.
In fairness, it was Green Arrow who was boasting about Hal's performance, while Hal seemed a bit embarrassed by Arrow mentioning it. Here's the actual page in question:
I don't mind this in terms of the characterization of these two (and the art is beautiful) but I do think critics had a point about how it reduced those particular female characters to basically a punchline, and that it would have been out of character for the Huntress to be involved with such an event. I think the resulting internet controversy was maybe a little overblown but there were some valid concerns expressed. Plus, the rest of the issue was horrible; I hope Robinson gets his sea legs under him soon, because he used to be a great writer.
This is very helpful, Scott- thanks. And I think my earlier assumptions were incorrect. This writer does capture tone rather well, I think. I can "hear" this conversation when I read it, and both GL & GA "sound" like themselves. Except for the subject matter. I think your right-- forcing this amusing exchange demeans the women named AND Hal himself, who I can't imagine behaving in such a way. . . ESPECIALLY after he became Green Lantern ('course, I've never followed him regularly, so I could be expecting too much of him.). It's a lack of respect for the characters. Yes, absolutely.
For what it's worth, here's the Spider-man sequence in question as well. Here's Chameleon as Peter, getting it on with Peter's roommate:
How Marvel expects anyone to believe this is all supposed to depict just a make-out session is beyond me. I also think people are right to criticize the fact that not only is this rape, but it's played entirely for laughs by turning the roommate into the stereotypical needy girlfriend. Needless to say, a lot of female readers in particular weren't happy with either half of that equation.
I received these issues in the mail out of order, which was a bit confusing. This whole sub-plot made my stomach hurt. Peter treats this like something out of Three's Company, when he should be FRANTIC with concern for his roommate's welfare. A cold-blooded killer has (obviously, unquestionably) had sex w/ her, posing as him. Good lord-- what if she's pregnant? What if he's done something to her? STD's? A lethal implant? Peter's hyper-concern for everyone else's welfare would NEVER let him blow this off so casually. I'm kind of tired of Stupid, Flailing, Frat-boy Peter and would like to see the return of Concerned, OverExtended, But Still Juggling It All Peter.
I think one of these might be of particular interest to people; the artist for Children of the Sewers specifically attempted to draw his comic as a John Buscema homage and it really worked. I'm not a big fan of the story, but some of the art almost looks like Buscema himself. The face on the last panel of page 5 in particular is a classic Buscema face.
scottharris Avengers Founding Member member is offline
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Re: new blog « Reply #41 on Mar 11, 2010, 2:54pm »
So today i decided to embark on a quest to receive the rare, honorary MMMS title Fearless Front Facer, which is only given out by Marvel to those who go above and beyond in their devotion to Marvel. I emailed Tom Brevoort and asked him to advise me on how I can receive this honor and I'll be following my progress on my blog, starting here:
I'm honestly still not sure what number one is going to be. I've narrowed it down to two picks -- both of which you all can no doubt very easily guess -- but I'm really back and forth on which should be number one. What do you think?
Van Plexico Administrator Vanlactus member is offline
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Re: new blog « Reply #44 on May 18, 2010, 12:58pm »
Great stuff, Scott! I can guess at least two of the final five-- Korvac and the Mansion Siege. And probably the Pym deal from the early 200s that I didn't care for.
I would have ranked a few of these much higher than you did, but all in all you're hitting all the right notes and including everything that should be there.
"But you know as well as I, patriotism is a word; and one that generally comes to mean either my country, right or wrong, which is infamous, or my country is always right, which is imbecile." --Patrick O'Brian
"Cease to resist me, and you may live to see another day!" --SuperSkrull
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Re: new blog « Reply #45 on May 18, 2010, 4:48pm »
Boy, Scott, this is a real brain-wracker. ("Wracker", mind you- not "wrecker"--- I feel fine. . . ) Whatcher top five gonna be?
(My guesses, in no particular order. . . )
Korvac, sure. Mansion siege, oh yeah. Avengers #57 & 58? Introduction of the Vision, maybe? Kang Conquers Earth (late in vol. 3's run, as I recall)?
Hmm. Then I'm stumped. First Sons of the Serpent arc? (circa issue #34?) Fall & Rise of Hank Pym, indeed? Could see that. Boy, it needs to be a biggie. . .
Hey, and I'll back you up solidly on including the Gatherers arc. Upon a recent re-reading, it really was an engaging arc with very solid art. AND we ultimately got the Vision back because of it-!
"Cease to resist me, and you may live to see another day!" --SuperSkrull
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Re: new blog « Reply #48 on May 20, 2010, 3:36pm »
OMG, Scott, THANK YOU for stating at the end of your wrap-up that you liked the Gatherers-Era team jackets! There does seem to be a majority-opinion of profound dislike for them, but I always found them to be a very real-to-life detail that was quietly added into the Avengers' routine w/out there being a big announcement about it. And to me it was a slap-on-the-head, "of course"-type of detail that was a completely natural aspect of the nature of the team at that time. It's kinda silly, and kinda conspicuously corporate, and a little corny, and yet still cool, and an undeniably comfortable and easy way to express that sense of "I belong to this TEAM!" And I liked that no particular concessions seemed to be made in costumes to accomodate them. Just a jacket over whatever ya had on. . .
OMG, Scott, THANK YOU for stating at the end of your wrap-up that you liked the Gatherers-Era team jackets! There does seem to be a majority-opinion of profound dislike for them, but I always found them to be a very real-to-life detail that was quietly added into the Avengers' routine w/out there being a big announcement about it. And to me it was a slap-on-the-head, "of course"-type of detail that was a completely natural aspect of the nature of the team at that time. It's kinda silly, and kinda conspicuously corporate, and a little corny, and yet still cool, and an undeniably comfortable and easy way to express that sense of "I belong to this TEAM!" And I liked that no particular concessions seemed to be made in costumes to accomodate them. Just a jacket over whatever ya had on. . .
HB
I was ok with Crystal, Sersi and the Widow wearing them. Visually it seemed kinda out of place in the Black Knight's case, though... . I can't recall if Herc ever wore them. I didn't mind in Natasha's case, since she was seldom (as I recall) in battle herself then. If she would have done so more often I would not have liked it, since her whole gig is being stealthy and to blend with the shadows, and the jacket would have detracted from that. And thank goodness the Vision never wore them... .
OMG, Scott, THANK YOU for stating at the end of your wrap-up that you liked the Gatherers-Era team jackets! There does seem to be a majority-opinion of profound dislike for them, but I always found them to be a very real-to-life detail that was quietly added into the Avengers' routine w/out there being a big announcement about it. And to me it was a slap-on-the-head, "of course"-type of detail that was a completely natural aspect of the nature of the team at that time. It's kinda silly, and kinda conspicuously corporate, and a little corny, and yet still cool, and an undeniably comfortable and easy way to express that sense of "I belong to this TEAM!" And I liked that no particular concessions seemed to be made in costumes to accomodate them. Just a jacket over whatever ya had on. . .
HB
I was ok with Crystal, Sersi and the Widow wearing them. Visually it seemed kinda out of place in the Black Knight's case, though... . I can't recall if Herc ever wore them. I didn't mind in Natasha's case, since she was seldom (as I recall) in battle herself then. If she would have done so more often I would not have liked it, since her whole gig is being stealthy and to blend with the shadows, and the jacket would have detracted from that. And thank goodness the Vision never wore them... .
Oh say, am I also remembering baseball caps w/ the Avengers "A" on them? Yes? (Not exactly sports caps, maybe-- sort of like the ones farmers & truckers use. . .?) Totally jiggy, that. . .
spiderwasp Avengers Founding Member member is offline
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Re: new blog « Reply #51 on May 20, 2010, 9:07pm »
Scott, your list is great though I do agree with the contingency that says that the Kang dynasty is a little too high. One story that hasn't been mentioned but that I've always had a great fondness for was the Zodiac cartel story circa 121. Maybe it was because it was one of the earliest Avengers books I read but I've always loved it.
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Re: new blog « Reply #53 on May 21, 2010, 12:19pm »
Always interesting stuff Scott. I think there was even more of Stern's run that deserved a spot, some of Englehart's earlier Avengers as well, and I hold the Graviton origin in high esteem as well but your choices are good enough that I won't quibble too much. And you did pick the Ultron mark story which is really an overlooked gem. Here's a look for those who haven't read it... http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/1005354.html
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Re: new blog « Reply #55 on May 26, 2010, 8:23am »
Great list! I would have put Ultron Unlimited and Avengers/JLA a little bit higher, and Korvac saga slightly lower (like 3rd or 4th), but these things are subjective. All in all, a very interesting read and review!
scottharris Avengers Founding Member member is offline
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Re: new blog « Reply #57 on Aug 11, 2010, 11:36pm »
Hey there. If anyone is interested, I'm beginning my long-awaited follow-up to last year's Real Top 70 Marvel Covers countdown today with the start of my Top 150 DC Covers of All Time list. You can read the intro to it here: http://comicsvault.blogspot.com/2010/08/....e-prologue.html
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